Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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X-Nitro   1 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » Mar 18 2020 1:10pm

lol, you would do well to listen to those who are experienced.
The OE rear lace pattern matters not to me, if you want a strong wheel cross-3.
And this is my stock ebike wheel, cross-2, or -1 is used for hub motors.
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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Mar 18 2020 3:00pm

machine built wheels are junk.. they didn't even weave the spokes either.. maybe contact Josh if you get stuck, could likely offer spoke calc and some professional advice for not much $$$..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Driift » Mar 19 2020 3:56pm

Offroader wrote:
Mar 14 2020 2:59am
Driift wrote:
Mar 12 2020 12:53am
Also I run the Michelin Starcross 5 Mediums they fit perfectly. These tires are known to run narrow on mx bikes and are a lot lighter due to the thinner sidewalls.
What size are you running in the rear? How quickly do these tires wear on the rear?
Same size at the front, 70/100-19. The wear is minimal, barely. I have probably put on 70 miles street and dirt hard pack sand washes etc since I got them. Medium compound, loads of room to clear chain and swing arm, I will post some pics. Great tires just installing the Talon 1.4 rim lock today. Without it, it would shear the valve stem ever other ride. Motosport sold them to me delivered for $98 total for the two.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by thoroughbred » Mar 19 2020 10:17pm

X-Nitro wrote:
Mar 18 2020 1:10pm
lol, you would do well to listen to those who are experienced.
The OE rear lace pattern matters not to me, if you want a strong wheel cross-3.
And this is my stock ebike wheel, cross-2, or -1 is used for hub motors.
I did a survey of the motorcycle wheels in my shop. 9 were 2 cross and 3 were 3 cross. The only 3 cross were the Sur ron front, a yamaha front and a ktm cush hub rear wheel. The 2 cross wheels were zero, honda, sur ron rear, suzuki, yamaha and ktm

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Mar 19 2020 10:33pm

As always.... Do as much cross as you "can"....
The imported part is "can"

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X-Nitro   1 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » Mar 20 2020 10:48am

thoroughbred wrote:
Mar 19 2020 10:17pm
X-Nitro wrote:
Mar 18 2020 1:10pm
lol, you would do well to listen to those who are experienced.
The OE rear lace pattern matters not to me, if you want a strong wheel cross-3.
And this is my stock ebike wheel, cross-2, or -1 is used for hub motors.
I did a survey of the motorcycle wheels in my shop. 9 were 2 cross and 3 were 3 cross. The only 3 cross were the Sur ron front, a yamaha front and a ktm cush hub rear wheel. The 2 cross wheels were zero, honda, sur ron rear, suzuki, yamaha and ktm
Motorcycles with machine-formed 4 gauge spokes are not part of this conversation, duh.
:shock: 48v 1500w Custom 1/2 fatty bannaseat hardtail hub streetbike - The modern electric "stingray" mullet bike :bolt: E-Goat Sur-Ron

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Mar 20 2020 1:02pm

X-Nitro wrote:
Mar 20 2020 10:48am
thoroughbred wrote:
Mar 19 2020 10:17pm
X-Nitro wrote:
Mar 18 2020 1:10pm
lol, you would do well to listen to those who are experienced.
The OE rear lace pattern matters not to me, if you want a strong wheel cross-3.
And this is my stock ebike wheel, cross-2, or -1 is used for hub motors.
I did a survey of the motorcycle wheels in my shop. 9 were 2 cross and 3 were 3 cross. The only 3 cross were the Sur ron front, a yamaha front and a ktm cush hub rear wheel. The 2 cross wheels were zero, honda, sur ron rear, suzuki, yamaha and ktm
Motorcycles with machine-formed 4 gauge spokes are not part of this conversation, duh.
Sooooo.......are you saying that 4g spokes are not part of this conversation? :lol:

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X-Nitro   1 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » Mar 20 2020 1:13pm

ya pretty much, if you can grasp the reasons...
This ain't a "survey" thing it's about what lacing pattern is stronger and therefore recommended.
:shock: 48v 1500w Custom 1/2 fatty bannaseat hardtail hub streetbike - The modern electric "stingray" mullet bike :bolt: E-Goat Sur-Ron

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by thoroughbred » Mar 20 2020 7:15pm

Offroader wrote:
Mar 10 2020 5:15pm
Rix wrote:
Mar 04 2020 3:04pm
Offroader wrote:
Mar 03 2020 7:07pm
Does anyone know if the Sur-Ron rear wheel is dished any? Going to lace an 18" wheel and need to know if I should dish it.
What size of 18 are you going with?
Rix, I have an 18x3.00 Shinko 241 tire. That really is probably the best tire for this bike. I do like the stock tire, but it wears away very quickly. I may use my Sur-Ron to commute to work sometimes and it would really wear away the stock tire.

The other issue I noticed with the stock sur-ron tire in the rear is that it seems to lose grip very easily in the dirt when accelerating. I'm not sure if the wider 18x3.00 shinko will be better but I'm thinking it will. I'm ripping up everything with the tire.
The Shinko 241 on my hub motor bike never was able to spin so easily, but it could be because it was a hub motor, although I was using a lot of power on it.


The stock tire on the front wears away very slowly and is perfect for the front. Especially considering its light weight for a motorcycle tire.

I'm right now in the process of figuring out the spoke length to order. I want to have this ready for the spring.
Gee Nitro, I thought the discussion was about lacing a motorcycle wheel to the sur ron. Tell us more about the fine points of lacing a bicycle wheel. Which pedals and crankset are you running on your light bee?

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X-Nitro   1 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » Mar 20 2020 9:05pm

ya keep thinking, your thoughts have provided zero pertinent information, good job. :thumb:
:shock: 48v 1500w Custom 1/2 fatty bannaseat hardtail hub streetbike - The modern electric "stingray" mullet bike :bolt: E-Goat Sur-Ron

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Mar 23 2020 8:35am

I'm looking to lace a 1.85"x19 moto wheel onto the surron rear hub. I just installed a Shinko SR241 3.50x19 rear. Had to dish the rear to the left a little but it fits well. Planning to run a Tubliss setup w/ really low pressures and try out some trials events with it (and regularly make the sighting lap w/ it when I run my Sherco.) Now that I see how high the 3.50" brings up the rear, will probably want to lace a 21" rim on the front. 27.5" forks should clear the 2.75x21 Shinko SR241 (27.13" diam). I'm 6'2" so making this thing a little taller overall is good too;)

Anyway, onto my question. I found a fellow on ebay (wickedwheelworks) who sells spokes and custom nipples to mate the small mtb spokes to the large 8+mm holes of a moto rim. I haven't read this thread in a while, but now that I'm catching up I see his name mentioned here too. Does someone have a direct contact for him?

I now need to make the hardest decision! :lol: black rims or blue ones? The blue matte bead blasted PWR wheel looks to be a pretty close match to my blue Sur-Ron :D

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Mar 23 2020 8:45am

If you want to use that huge heavy brick of a tire go 18" or even 17"

I posted pics here with 17" shinko trials.

Going again 19" rear will be a drawback. 21" is equal to 26x2.5

With 3.5/19 it will be still a higher rear.

.... 18/21 mx...
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Mar 23 2020 8:53am

thoroughbred wrote:
Mar 20 2020 7:15pm
Gee Nitro, I thought the discussion was about lacing a motorcycle wheel to the sur ron. Tell us more about the fine points of lacing a bicycle wheel. Which pedals and crankset are you running on your light bee?
To be fair, we are lacing moto rims using bicycle spokes due to hub limitations. What a moto can achieve w/ 8ga spokes isn't apples to apples with what we have to achieve w/ 12ga (which are only about 40% as stiff/strong.) The hub diameters are different too - advantage to the moto.
None of this negates the math which says one style is stronger than the other. 2x is stiffest in side load. But 3x and 4x are stronger overall. Whether one needs that strength when they lace a stronger/heavier moto wheel onto an overweight mtb should be part of the discussion too.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Mar 23 2020 10:59am

Merlin wrote:
Mar 23 2020 8:45am
If you want to use that huge heavy brick of a tire go 18" or even 17"
Why? There is ~6% difference in weight in 19 vs 18. Thats a fraction of a pound. At <5mph it will make no difference. To run trials in my region you have to run trials tires. I can't fit a normal 4" radial so the SR241 looks like the best option.

The 3.50x19 rear is 26.6" diam
A 2.75"x21 front is 27.1"
OEM is ~24.4"

Taller is better for me. This bike is sized for little people;)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » Mar 23 2020 11:33am

smdub wrote:
Mar 23 2020 8:35am
I found a fellow on ebay (wickedwheelworks) who sells spokes and custom nipples to mate the small mtb spokes to the large 8+mm holes of a moto rim. I haven't read this thread in a while, but now that I'm catching up I see his name mentioned here too. Does someone have a direct contact for him?
His ebay store is the retail operation, I get quick friendly service every time.
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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Mar 23 2020 11:55am

smdub wrote:
Mar 23 2020 10:59am
Merlin wrote:
Mar 23 2020 8:45am
If you want to use that huge heavy brick of a tire go 18" or even 17"
Why? There is ~6% difference in weight in 19 vs 18. Thats a fraction of a pound. At <5mph it will make no difference. To run trials in my region you have to run trials tires. I can't fit a normal 4" radial so the SR241 looks like the best option.

The 3.50x19 rear is 26.6" diam
A 2.75"x21 front is 27.1"
OEM is ~24.4"

Taller is better for me. This bike is sized for little people;)
I made a bunch of tire tests and measured all time weight and sizes.
Simple calculations don't work on tires.
Not in height and 95%of time not for width.

Up 2 you.
Merlin wrote:
Nov 08 2019 6:28pm
17x3.5 fits also.....and its not that much more weight vs 19x3.0.
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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Mar 23 2020 12:32pm

smdub wrote:
Mar 23 2020 8:35am
I found a fellow on ebay (wickedwheelworks) who sells spokes and custom nipples to mate the small mtb spokes to the large 8+mm holes of a moto rim. I haven't read this thread in a while, but now that I'm catching up I see his name mentioned here too. Does someone have a direct contact for him?
you can contact him through the eBay store or on facebook.com/josh.nowell.69
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Mar 23 2020 2:02pm

Merlin wrote:
Mar 23 2020 11:55am
I made a bunch of tire tests and measured all time weight and sizes.
Simple calculations don't work on tires.
Not in height and 95%of time not for width.
I'm not calculating the heights. As I said I have the 3.50x19 already mounted on the stock rim. The heights for the others are on the Shinko website and look accurate vs the ones I have on the KTMs. I also have Dunlop D803GPs both loose spares and mounted on the two remaining trials bikes. They are >27" diam. Just occured to me the front dunlop might fit inside the SurRon fork so I'm going to make measurements. Its probably a gummier tire than the front Shinko.
Image

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Mar 23 2020 2:06pm

You have 3.5 trial rear and stock Cst 19 front? :shock:

Jesus. Ohhhkay.

Btw.. Stock battery stock controller?
This rear eats probably 1kw :?

Do you have any video from what's "possible" with this setup doing trial stuff?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by mikeith » Apr 01 2020 10:22am

Merlin wrote:
Mar 23 2020 8:45am
If you want to use that huge heavy brick of a tire go 18" or even 17"

I posted pics here with 17" shinko trials.

Going again 19" rear will be a drawback. 21" is equal to 26x2.5

With 3.5/19 it will be still a higher rear.

.... 18/21 mx...
what wheel/tire size is that 18 on back?

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 01 2020 12:21pm

Merlin wrote:
Mar 23 2020 2:06pm
You have 3.5 trial rear and stock Cst 19 front? :shock:

Jesus. Ohhhkay.

Btw.. Stock battery stock controller?
This rear eats probably 1kw :?

Do you have any video from what's "possible" with this setup doing trial stuff?
I think this combo would work great!!! :lol: Like riding down hill all of the time. :shock:

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Apr 01 2020 2:37pm

mikeith wrote:
Apr 01 2020 10:22am
Merlin wrote:
Mar 23 2020 8:45am
If you want to use that huge heavy brick of a tire go 18" or even 17"

I posted pics here with 17" shinko trials.

Going again 19" rear will be a drawback. 21" is equal to 26x2.5

With 3.5/19 it will be still a higher rear.

.... 18/21 mx...
what wheel/tire size is that 18 on back?

18 x 3.5 CST 755

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 05 2020 3:52pm

I really can't see why you would want to use a 3.5" tire on the Sur-Ron, especially using a 19x3.5". Anything will work I guess, remember we used to use hub motors which added 27lbs in the rear wheel and that worked, but its not optimal or a good idea.

I am finally in the process of building the ultimate Sur-Ron rear wheel, a 18"x3.00" Shinko 241 tire, this is probably the perfect size rear tire you can get. Matches very close to the stock 19" tire.

I lucked out finding a decent rim at a decent weight. Finding any 18" rims is very difficult as it seems mostly nobody uses them.

The 18x1.6" rim I am using weighs 1309 grams or 2.8lbs.

The Sur-Ron stock 19x1.4" rim weighs 1196 grams or 2.63lbs.

Usually the wider 1.6" rims weigh a lot more but not in this case. I have the spokes and will use the steel nipples off of the stock 19" wheel.

My 18x1.6" rim
Image

Sur-Ron 19x1.4" rim
Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 05 2020 5:21pm

Offroader wrote:
Apr 05 2020 3:52pm
I really can't see why you would want to use a 3.5" tire on the Sur-Ron, especially using a 19x3.5". Anything will work I guess, remember we used to use hub motors which added 27lbs in the rear wheel and that worked, but its not optimal or a good idea.
You always seem to think that what you have deemed optimal for your use is optimal for everyone. Personally, I wish I could put a 5" tire on my Sur Ron.
Offroader wrote:
Mar 10 2020 5:15pm
Rix, I have an 18x3.00 Shinko 241 tire. That really is probably the best tire for this bike. I do like the stock tire, but it wears away very quickly.
That isn't the best tire for me on this bike - not even close. My bike is never on the payment - I need Knobby tires for what I ride.

As for wearing, I have 2,000 miles on my rear Bridgestone M403 and it still has about half the tread left. The front has worn away even less.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Apr 05 2020 7:37pm

Offroader wrote:
Apr 05 2020 3:52pm
I really can't see why you would want to use a 3.5" tire on the Sur-Ron, especially using a 19x3.5".

... Finding any 18" rims is very difficult as it seems mostly nobody uses them.

i can help you finding out why a 3.5 mx tire you want....

because it rips :mrgreen:

shinkos 241/244 was good for hub shit. on street or hard terrain aka trial stuff.

offroad they suck.

nobody use 18"? ...thats pretty crazy mr. "offroad" -> any stock enduro has 18" on rear ...mx 19" rear..... :confused:
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