Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Jan 11 2020 10:01pm

you make me thinking now....
ill try to find the topic some years ago where this discussion teached me the lesson.
justin explained this with HS3540 motors.

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madin88   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by madin88 » Jan 12 2020 9:46am

sn0wchyld wrote:
Jan 11 2020 9:24pm
Your controller may get a little hotter stepping down to 30% of OCV than it would with a lower pack voltage (ie stepping down to 60% OCV - but these losses are minimal anyway. This is also the key point - your controller is stepping down the voltage from your pack to your motor in order to control the phase currents in the motor... so be it 60v or 100v or any other V... the motor only ever 'sees' what the controller wants it to 'see'.

it sounds like your mis-using the motor sim - use the same motor, same controller with the same phase current limit and adjust the 100v pack so it matches the speed/power draw of the 60V pack - and you'll find it has the same (or near enough) efficiency + power use, same hill climb ability and thus same heat generated.
Not only the controller will get hotter when stepping down from higher voltage, but also the motor. The reason is that with higher voltage there is more ripple current (current spikes which make just heat everywhere in the windings and controller, but no torque).
I guess the motor sim doesn't include this in the calculations (correct me if i am wrong), as it also doesn't include saturation (max torque you get in real world), but it will be definitely a few percent overall less efficient.

I am too thinking that 24s is a bad idea, simply because it will push the top speed in Motorcylce territory which makes not much sense on a bike like this other than for drag races or short top runs (battery and motor is to small for this power).
Merlin wrote:
Jan 11 2020 7:51pm
if you creep up a hill with a 100v surron at 10-15mph/5kw its probalby 2500w heat you generate in losses. dont wonder when your stock surron guy tops the hill with half the temperature.
The difference probably won't be that big :mrgreen: , but thats correct.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Jan 12 2020 1:06pm

Another factor is the motor windings are being used as the inductor in a buck regulator configuration. The iron may or may not be very efficient at the switching frequency but will certainly have some heating in addition to the heating from eddy currents. At higher step down ratios, the inductor losses will increase (but still small compared to the copper losses).
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Jan 13 2020 1:02am

Some things never get old!

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SlowCo   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SlowCo » Jan 13 2020 7:18am

Snowmobile :thumb: :lol:

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Jan 13 2020 10:47am

No motor heating issues there! Looks like fun.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 13 2020 2:29pm

SlowCo wrote:
Jan 13 2020 7:18am
Snowmobile :thumb: :lol:
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(not my bike) facebook/eoosfrance
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

SlowCo   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SlowCo » Jan 13 2020 2:53pm

:shock:
I had to look real good to see it is indeed a Sur Ron Light Bee hiding in there. I almost wish we had snow... :wink:

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Jan 13 2020 5:26pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jan 13 2020 2:29pm
SlowCo wrote:
Jan 13 2020 7:18am
Snowmobile :thumb: :lol:
Image

(not my bike) facebook/eoosfrance

Well from what I know from riding snowbikes 450cc and an older 500cc 2st power is everything and it ain't real fun before you strap on that nitro bottle, I mean a snowbike need as much power as possible to feel like a mx on snow. Stock sur ron motor and battery.....not much fun to ride I bet. Maybe a fun garage project but I bet it is horrible to ride in the deep stuff.

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 13 2020 6:02pm

the rear track is designed for pit bikes (with a similar power to surrron) .. of course it's no comparison to 450cc.. still likely better than wheels for some winter snow fun;)
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Jan 13 2020 10:24pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jan 13 2020 2:29pm
SlowCo wrote:
Jan 13 2020 7:18am
Snowmobile :thumb: :lol:
Image

(not my bike) facebook/eoosfrance
Rad, thanks for that! I had looked at TimberSleds, but I thought based on the marketing images of the Ripper model (4-year-olds using it) I thought that it would likely be too small for the Sur Ron, and the other models being way too big/heavy for it. I wonder if any modifications to the Sur Son had to be made for it - I posted a question on that FB page - I'll report back if I get a response.
macribs wrote:
Jan 13 2020 5:26pm
Well from what I know from riding snowbikes 450cc and an older 500cc 2st power is everything and it ain't real fun before you strap on that nitro bottle, I mean a snowbike need as much power as possible to feel like a mx on snow. Stock sur ron motor and battery.....not much fun to ride I bet. Maybe a fun garage project but I bet it is horrible to ride in the deep stuff.
I have tons of fun in the snow now - its a blast getting completely loose with it. Getting more traction would open up the back country for me. I'm limited to about a foot of powder now - my favorite is when there is about 6 inches of fresh snow after the roads have been plowed. Of course a Timbersled on a Sur Ron wouldn't compare to a full-on snow machine, but I'm willing to bet that it would be even more fun than what I have now for winter... Wish it was more like $1k than $2k though. Hmmm, still very tempting indeed!

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Jan 13 2020 10:36pm


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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Jan 13 2020 10:48pm

motomoto wrote:
Jan 13 2020 10:36pm
2 Grand. Not too bad.

https://www.timbersled.com/en-us/snow-b ... 93-ripper/
There's one on eBay for $1299 - but after you factor in freight, its probably better to pick up one from one of the local authorized dealers. Would cost about the same and have dealer support.

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Jan 15 2020 4:27pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jan 13 2020 6:02pm
the rear track is designed for pit bikes (with a similar power to surrron) .. of course it's no comparison to 450cc.. still likely better than wheels for some winter snow fun;)
Have never tested those pit bikes, but riding in powder really eats you power. You need the ski lift at the blip of the throttle, you really massive power to launch "kick off" from ledges, to get that mx feel. And you need to hard power to really have fun up steep stuff. Sure you can stomp your left foot down, and then again and again but you loose momentum, speed and the thrill of riding.

Ev's have brought me so much fun in these short years. But I could not see myself ride an electric snowbike, at least not based on the sur ron as it is bound to be anemic, tame or even lame. But a fun garage project, maybe just to dick around the field outside your house or you own back yard or most likely fun for kids. I don't think grown men can have much fun on that thing. I am sure it would feel like taking a 165" mountain sled remove the 300 hp turbo engine and replace it with a single cylinder 300cc engine. Sure you got floatation from the long track, but it won't bring you a smile on your face.

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 15 2020 4:33pm

depends on location and expectations.. many places you can not run petrol bikes, so surrron snow bike would be a lot more fun than "no-bike" .. besides, surrron has lots of power.. compared to a bicycle haha;)
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Jan 15 2020 6:23pm

macribs wrote:
Jan 15 2020 4:27pm
You need the ski lift at the blip of the throttle, you really massive power to launch "kick off" from ledges, to get that mx feel.

I don't think grown men can have much fun on that thing.
Why is having a "mx feel" a requirement for "grown men" to have fun? I have a blast with the Sur Ron in the snow now - it's completely different than mx or bike riding or skiing. It's an experience all of its own and I think its very fun.

By adding a ski to the front and a track to the back, it would allow me to float on top of the snow (compared to a single contact point of tires the surface area would magnitudes more). So it would be like what riding in the snow is for me now, but I suspect even more fun, and much more capable.
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jan 15 2020 4:33pm
depends on location and expectations.
Exactly!
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jan 15 2020 4:33pm
so surrron snow bike would be a lot more fun than "no-bike"
Well said.

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Jan 15 2020 9:57pm

58.png
58.png (457.32 KiB) Viewed 1760 times
The guy that made this video verified that he bought it from Luna. Eric is such a creative engineer. My 58 tooth is below.
58 mine.jpg
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Kauaiguy   10 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Kauaiguy » Jan 15 2020 10:21pm

There ad use to say it was made from 6061,I left a question on there ad of why they used such a soft metal in their sprockets,they didn’t publish my question,wonder why .

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Jan 15 2020 10:26pm

motomoto wrote:
Jan 15 2020 9:57pm
The guy that made this video verified that he bought it from Luna. Eric is such a creative engineer. My 58 tooth is below.
I guess he gets that creative from huffing his own farts. :P

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Jan 16 2020 6:09am

3DTOPO wrote:
Jan 15 2020 6:23pm
macribs wrote:
Jan 15 2020 4:27pm
You need the ski lift at the blip of the throttle, you really massive power to launch "kick off" from ledges, to get that mx feel.

I don't think grown men can have much fun on that thing.
Why is having a "mx feel" a requirement for "grown men" to have fun? I have a blast with the Sur Ron in the snow now - it's completely different than mx or bike riding or skiing. It's an experience all of its own and I think its very fun.

By adding a ski to the front and a track to the back, it would allow me to float on top of the snow (compared to a single contact point of tires the surface area would magnitudes more). So it would be like what riding in the snow is for me now, but I suspect even more fun, and much more capable.

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jan 15 2020 4:33pm
so surrron snow bike would be a lot more fun than "no-bike"
Well said.

Well if your kick is "floating" more then speed and agility I guess even a sur run snowbike can bring you fun. Clearly we don't see eye to eye on what is considered fun, but one's fun is one's fun and ain't no fun thats more right then the other fun. So enjoy. Btw. Any dirt cheap snowmobile with small 2stroke will give you the floating feel for next to nothing in terms of purchasing cost and riding cost. And likely have more performance and acceleration then the sur ron too. If that parts bring any thrills. I've ridden all kinds of snowmobiles and have tuned and upgraded sleds since the late 80's. So for me fun on the snow always come with some part of power, speed, acceleration and agility. Like I don't do cross country skiing, but I love snowboarding and even got a pair of twin tip alpine's. Cross country skiing is floating and enjoying the scenic view . Like a sur ron snowbike I imagine. And snowboard or downhill skiing is more nitro snowbike.

"Mx feel"? Don't know, might have some thing to do with riders expectations. When you pretty much grown up riding mx you get some reference points and expectations. And those might be far back in your head and not even a conscious thought, but as you let the clutch go, you kind of know what you need in terms of power, rideability, and throttle response to get the feeling of true fun and excitement.
so surrron snow bike would be a lot more fun than "no-bike"
Not for me, sur ron on its own is great fun with some diy spiked tires on the snow and ice. But a snowbike kit? Not my cup of tea. Not saying it should feel like that for everyone, but that how I feel. I guess when I wrote the first post I was only relating it to my own feel about snowbikes and didn't even consider others would feel different. Ain't no right or wrong way to feel. Whatever floats your boat is fine, and if you enjoy sur ron snowbike you should ride sur ron snowbike.

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 16 2020 7:24am

2smokers are the devil's work;).. if you disagree plz route the exhaust directly into your helmet :P .. noise pollution not acceptable unless taken to designated ohv ridding areas, becoming farther and fewer unless one living in the boonies.. meanwhile hundreds of trail miles just outside town if you have the fitness and interest to explore on foot, HPV or ebikes;) .. I ride the mountain in snow.. ice spikes required for traction and control.. have to stop when it gets deep or stay on the jeep track.. next step add a (electric) motor, next step add a ski, next step add a track, next step add more range and power.. where does it end.. it doesn't:)
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Jan 16 2020 8:57am

The actually make an electric snowmobile:

https://electrek.co/2018/03/03/tesla-in ... nowmobile/
Snowmobile.jpg
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The team says that they managed to keep the weight “under 500 lbs fully loaded,” which is competitive with current options on the market, but while being equipped with a significant 15 kWh battery pack.

That battery pack powers a PMAC motor with 250 N.m. of torque and about 80 kW of power output, which is a lot of power for a machine that weighs less than 500 lbs.

It’s why they can achieve a scary 0 to 60 mph acceleration in just 3 seconds.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Jan 16 2020 9:01am

yeah but that's like riding a trike vs a motorcycle.. bike form factor offers more maneuverability increasing fun factor;)
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

dirkdiggler   10 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by dirkdiggler » Jan 16 2020 11:17am

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Jan 13 2020 2:29pm
58 mine.jpg (446.75 KiB) Viewed 194 times
Funny we had this conversation two years ago, back on page 86,87 of the thread. I'd love to see that Sur-ron Timbersled Ripper riding in a video. Could be more fun than we think. I know my local motoshop has the older Ripper 93 version for $1k, which would be reasonable. That's only if I don't need to do a ton of custom work to get it to fit the Sur-ron. Seems like you'd have to with the chain on the other side, no foot brake and such.
3dtopo-
Definitely let us know what you hear back from them if you do!

Hummina Shadeeba   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Jan 16 2020 11:35am

madin88 wrote:
Jan 12 2020 9:46am
sn0wchyld wrote:
Jan 11 2020 9:24pm
Your controller may get a little hotter stepping down to 30% of OCV than it would with a lower pack voltage (ie stepping down to 60% OCV - but these losses are minimal anyway. This is also the key point - your controller is stepping down the voltage from your pack to your motor in order to control the phase currents in the motor... so be it 60v or 100v or any other V... the motor only ever 'sees' what the controller wants it to 'see'.

it sounds like your mis-using the motor sim - use the same motor, same controller with the same phase current limit and adjust the 100v pack so it matches the speed/power draw of the 60V pack - and you'll find it has the same (or near enough) efficiency + power use, same hill climb ability and thus same heat generated.
Not only the controller will get hotter when stepping down from higher voltage, but also the motor. The reason is that with higher voltage there is more ripple current (current spikes which make just heat everywhere in the windings and controller, but no torque).
I guess the motor sim doesn't include this in the calculations (correct me if i am wrong), as it also doesn't include saturation (max torque you get in real world), but it will be definitely a few percent overall less efficient.

I am too thinking that 24s is a bad idea, simply because it will push the top speed in Motorcylce territory which makes not much sense on a bike like this other than for drag races or short top runs (battery and motor is to small for this power).
Merlin wrote:
Jan 11 2020 7:51pm
if you creep up a hill with a 100v surron at 10-15mph/5kw its probalby 2500w heat you generate in losses. dont wonder when your stock surron guy tops the hill with half the temperature.
The difference probably won't be that big :mrgreen: , but thats correct.
Does the grin sim take the current ripple from high voltage into account or saturation? I see a drop in efficiency but wondering if it’s the esc or esc n motor

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