New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 12 2020 12:02pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Jan 12 2020 4:15am
Where did you buy the engine? probably many other engines will have the same defect, I don't think they could have made a single axis wrong. It would be right to warn users. Perhaps the same engine is produced in different factories, perhaps under license and therefore with slightly different standards and characteristics.
I had this engine with me for some time, I lost the track. Most of them were from PSWPower but maybe this one was from a seller on Aliexpress.

And even with pedals not aligned, we went today to make 40kms -- guess what, more problems :-( -- at 35kms, the motor started to make noise with the issue Blue gear roller clutch slipping: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... h_slipping
I wounder what causes this issue... and only after 35kms on a new motor!!!

My son had to pedal without assistance on the last 5kms, luckily it was flat terrain...

Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

skestans   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jan 12 2020 12:48pm

I'm... lost. My rear derailleur cable definitely is getting in the way: it's router under the bottom bracket with a cable guide that's too thick to fit between the motor and the frame, and then it gets in the way again where the plate that screws above and below the rear wheel arch (around where the rear fender attaches.)

I'm slowly coming to terms with the fact that I'll have to re-route the rear derailleur cable :(

But: how do you do it? Do you run housing all the way from the shifter on the handlebars to the rear derailleur? Can you still use those little barrels along the frame or do you have to ziptie the cable to the frame all the way?

I want to keep this as neat as possible, and I don't really know what I'm dong!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 12 2020 1:06pm

Yup just use a full outer cable all the way, most new bikes a re thus. most put the cable over the bottom bracket and along the rear stays.

OK update on my water ingress problem. My engine is a very early engine and seems to have a different cover than the newer units. That older cover seems to have an external O ring which is now missing and hence the water problems. The later covers have an internal seal around the bearing and look pretty good. Question is has any of you a later chain ring ring side cover of the later type which I could buy from you ? I can see now how its irrelevant whether the torque sensor wire is sealed or not.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jan 12 2020 1:56pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 12 2020 1:06pm
Yup just use a full outer cable all the way, most new bikes a re thus. most put the cable over the bottom bracket and along the rear stays.
I'm seeing some people without the rear bracket thing at all. Or mounted upside down (like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aSh4fLXA3Y)

I am also reading that the rear bracket/clamp will bite into the frame and chafe the paint.

How much sense does it make to not install the rear bracket and have the TSDZ2 rest forward against the downtube with part of an old tube in-between the frame and the motor?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ImpulsePurchase » Jan 13 2020 3:59am

Mike-P wrote:
Jan 12 2020 10:42am
Found a youtube video [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V3G0GSx4zg[/youtube] taking a completely different approach knocking the lot out from the rear which worked albeit probably potentially not too good for the health of the torque sensor. The only thing that seems looks faulty/seems odd is that only two of the three springs appear to exist - have brushed the area where I took it apart and scanned it with a bright light. Wondering if only two did exist and that's why as they weakened it suddenly stopped working / works very occasionally. The loss of power was immediately after the bike bounced, as it does on every commute, over a slightly depressed filled in trench across the road. Alternatively with the display issues as well could it be a fault with the controller? Pondering whether it would be best to get a new torque sensor and a new controller, or simply put it back together with three springs and see of it is okay. EDIT - think I'll get a new torque sensor and see if that cures it,
You will need to remove the sprag clutch if you want to replace the torque sensor. I suspect this is easier to do before taking rest of the drive unit out. The large toothed gear can be inserted by hand so although its snug, it doesn't need special fitting tools.

My preferred method is to remove the case covering the clutch and toothed gear. Then screw the chainset back on again. At this point you will have extra leverage to pull against. Its easier if you still have the motor in the frame or you can cut an appropriate sized hole in a piece of wood and screw the retaining washer into that. That then gives you something you can brace your feet against whilst you remove it. Just make sure you have taken the circlips off first

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mike-P » Jan 13 2020 2:57pm

ImpulsePurchase wrote:
Jan 13 2020 3:59am
You will need to remove the sprag clutch if you want to replace the torque sensor.
Thanks for the advice.
skestans wrote:
Jan 12 2020 1:56pm
I am also reading that the rear bracket/clamp will bite into the frame and chafe the paint.
One solution is to wrap some rubber (bits of old inner tube) around the frame at the appropriate location which aside from stopping the bracket/clamp biting into the frame also stops any creaking noises arising there. I do have a problem with those parts in that the clearance to the seat post on my bike is tight meaning its awkward to get an allen key in the bolt head. Equally a normal bolt head is awkward to use due again to the tight clearances meaning any possible spanner movement is only very slight. Thinking of fitting a bolt from the underneath with a nut on top of the clamp but looks like the bracket will need to be filed down a bit on its underside to give a level surround to the bolt hole.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jan 13 2020 3:08pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 12 2020 1:06pm
OK update on my water ingress problem.
I am also suspicious that the spindle seals do not fit correctly. There should be some grip on the spindle shaft, but my drive side one seemed loose so I added extra grease to help keep water out. Of course, it should be lubricated anyway. I want to investigate this further sometime and try to find a better fitting seal. I haven't checked the non-drive side.

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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STP file, offset 50T design

Post by eyebyesickle » Jan 14 2020 9:10am

Hi,

Does anyone want to help out with a 50T design? Narrow/Wide - Offset 10mm... I think the offset needs to be closer to the outside ring... instead of in the center like it is - and the solid plate design... I think needs to have cutouts like most larger chain rings (same as stock 52T, and other common 110bcd styles)...

Also, I really don't have experience with this, I wing it as I go, and am not sure if I have it correct... I need to calculate the outside diameter and make sure that a chain is actually going to fit it... Any pointers? Anyone want to help? I can't offer much other than a free chain ring, but you will also be helping out the TSDZ2 community ;)

I can send the STP file if anyone wants to tinker with it, check the measurements... etc...

Couple shots of the design, and last one is the 50T guard I want to pair it with... Was thinking I should match the cutout/shape of it...
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Brlowe   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Brlowe » Jan 14 2020 11:03am

Can someone tell me what items will not be displayed if I went with the small SW102 display and not the 850C display? I really do not need a speed display as I have a garmin and my phone with cyclemeter but I would like battery level and maybe estimated miles left or something like that. Temp maybe too.
Can the SW102 display be customized so show what I want with the OSF?

Thanks
Brandon

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » Jan 14 2020 12:11pm

skestans wrote:
Jan 12 2020 1:56pm
I am also reading that the rear bracket/clamp will bite into the frame and chafe the paint.

How much sense does it make to not install the rear bracket and have the TSDZ2 rest forward against the downtube with part of an old tube in-between the frame and the motor?
I installed Tsdz2 on a Kona Honzo ST hardtail which has short chainstays and definetely no room for the rear clamp. So the motor is resting against the downtube, I did put some old tube between the contact points but that was eaten away after a couple of hundred kms, so apparently there is some slight movement even though the bolts and BB nut are really tight. With the steel frame there's no problem, the paint is chafed but no dent in the tube after 1000km. Aluminium frame might not be as durable though.

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Re: STP file, offset 50T design

Post by RicMcK » Jan 14 2020 12:34pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Jan 14 2020 9:10am
Hi,

Does anyone want to help out with a 50T design? Narrow/Wide - Offset 10mm... I think the offset needs to be closer to the outside ring... instead of in the center like it is - and the solid plate design... I think needs to have cutouts like most larger chain rings (same as stock 52T, and other common 110bcd styles)...

Also, I really don't have experience with this, I wing it as I go, and am not sure if I have it correct... I need to calculate the outside diameter and make sure that a chain is actually going to fit it... Any pointers? Anyone want to help? I can't offer much other than a free chain ring, but you will also be helping out the TSDZ2 community ;)

I can send the STP file if anyone wants to tinker with it, check the measurements... etc...

Couple shots of the design, and last one is the 50T guard I want to pair it with... Was thinking I should match the cutout/shape of it...
Search for my post about how I configured a dual chain rings with great chain line. PM me if you can't find the post with photos.
Rick Seattle WA

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: STP file, offset 50T design

Post by eyebyesickle » Jan 14 2020 2:10pm

RicMcK wrote:
Jan 14 2020 12:34pm
eyebyesickle wrote:
Jan 14 2020 9:10am
Hi,

Does anyone want to help out with a 50T design? Narrow/Wide - Offset 10mm... I think the offset needs to be closer to the outside ring... instead of in the center like it is - and the solid plate design... I think needs to have cutouts like most larger chain rings (same as stock 52T, and other common 110bcd styles)...

Also, I really don't have experience with this, I wing it as I go, and am not sure if I have it correct... I need to calculate the outside diameter and make sure that a chain is actually going to fit it... Any pointers? Anyone want to help? I can't offer much other than a free chain ring, but you will also be helping out the TSDZ2 community ;)

I can send the STP file if anyone wants to tinker with it, check the measurements... etc...

Couple shots of the design, and last one is the 50T guard I want to pair it with... Was thinking I should match the cutout/shape of it...
Search for my post about how I configured a dual chain rings with great chain line. PM me if you can't find the post with photos.
Nice, I remember that post. I've tried a few configurations myself in the past as well. This a bit different however, as on that setup the inside 42T still only has 5mm offset, and the teeth are not narrow wide... This would give 10mm offset on the inside, on a 50T... and the teeth are narrow wide... So I think it is still worth making...

skestans   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Jan 14 2020 2:12pm

ilu wrote:
Jan 14 2020 12:11pm
skestans wrote:
Jan 12 2020 1:56pm
I am also reading that the rear bracket/clamp will bite into the frame and chafe the paint.

How much sense does it make to not install the rear bracket and have the TSDZ2 rest forward against the downtube with part of an old tube in-between the frame and the motor?
I installed Tsdz2 on a Kona Honzo ST hardtail which has short chainstays and definetely no room for the rear clamp. So the motor is resting against the downtube, I did put some old tube between the contact points but that was eaten away after a couple of hundred kms, so apparently there is some slight movement even though the bolts and BB nut are really tight. With the steel frame there's no problem, the paint is chafed but no dent in the tube after 1000km. Aluminium frame might not be as durable though.
Interesting. Is it because the motor gets really hot and it damaged the inner tube you put as protection? Or did the inner tube get abraded away?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jan 14 2020 6:14pm

I posted this in the OSF thread, but it was suggested here is more appropriate.

I made a video demonstrating my motor concerns, sorry about the wind noise but the motor sound is important to hear. This was using v0.19 for VLCD5. I have no idea if this is normal so please tell me how this compares to your motors, no matter if you are running stock or opensource firmware.


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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ilu » Jan 15 2020 8:02am

skestans wrote:
Jan 14 2020 2:12pm
Interesting. Is it because the motor gets really hot and it damaged the inner tube you put as protection? Or did the inner tube get abraded away?
It was abraded, the contact point is very small and only a ring around it was left so I took it away and left the motor as it is. As you can see the motor housing is bent, soon I'll do some maintenance and I hope there's no problem opening that bolt. Some sort of wedge between the frame and motor would be good to divide the force on a larger area. The torque is so strong that soft rubber will not last, perhaps 3D printed plastic or something might work.

Image
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andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Jan 15 2020 1:58pm

New battery for tsdz2, made with liitokala 26650 50a 13s3p 720wh
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by john61ct » Jan 15 2020 2:01pm

link to the cells' source?

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 15 2020 2:11pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Jan 15 2020 1:58pm
New battery for tsdz2, made with liitokala 26650 50a 13s3p 720wh
That cells seems very cheap, powerful and light. 500Wh for about 100 euros.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Jan 15 2020 2:28pm

Yes, 720wh (40 cells) 127€
I have dane over 200km whitout problems. I think they are good cells!

andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: New

Post by andrea_104kg » Jan 15 2020 2:31pm

john61ct wrote:
Jan 15 2020 2:01pm
link to the cells' source?
I find them on aliexpress

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Jan 15 2020 2:34pm

Happy barbecue

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Brlowe » Jan 15 2020 4:05pm

I just ordered my TSDZ2 motor setup from ECO-Cycles. I know this question is like asking how to walk but what battery is the best out there? I want one with a BMS that has Bluetooth to monitor the batteries from my phone and I want a well built battery that is going to last. I prefer a shark style on a rail mount for easy removal. I'm looking at batteries from EM3ev.com.

Sorry for the loaded question in advance. Also is there a better place to post this question?

Brandon

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Jan 15 2020 4:18pm

famichiki wrote:
Jan 14 2020 6:14pm
I posted this in the OSF thread, but it was suggested here is more appropriate.

I made a video demonstrating my motor concerns, sorry about the wind noise but the motor sound is important to hear. This was using v0.19 for VLCD5. I have no idea if this is normal so please tell me how this compares to your motors, no matter if you are running stock or opensource firmware.

an user report this:
If you want to know the symptoms when your torque sensor is broken:

.When you press the pedal and stop the motor continue working a time
.you feel more power assist than normal
.your battery lasts minus
.when the torque is full broken you feel irregular assist
in this post: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=98665
I hope it's not your problem :(

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jan 15 2020 4:44pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Jan 15 2020 4:18pm
an user report this:
If you want to know the symptoms when your torque sensor is broken:

.When you press the pedal and stop the motor continue working a time
.you feel more power assist than normal
.your battery lasts minus
.when the torque is full broken you feel irregular assist
in this post: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=98665
I hope it's not your problem :(
Thanks for the info. The unusual thing is that the torque sensor operation seems ok, but is higher than Casainho's recommendation.

I've tested the reading with the factory viewing menu, Mbrusa's firmware, and my own code.. the reading is smooth and stable. The plotted torque graph seems a similar shape to Casainho's.

Apart from these effects, while pedalling the feeling is good.

It's been like this since new, so this is why I am so confused! :shock:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Jan 15 2020 6:46pm

ilu wrote:
Jan 15 2020 8:02am

It was abraded, the contact point is very small and only a ring around it was left so I took it away and left the motor as it is. As you can see the motor housing is bent, soon I'll do some maintenance and I hope there's no problem opening that bolt. Some sort of wedge between the frame and motor would be good to divide the force on a larger area. The torque is so strong that soft rubber will not last, perhaps 3D printed plastic or something might work.
if the rubber pad was actually abraded, and not simply crushed all the way thru it (pinched), then it is not torque by itself, it is that the motor housing is moving away and then toward and then away from the frame, rocking forward and back. it might also be moving side to side, if the abrasion marks are not all lined up from front to back.

so the way to fix this is to add a brace to the housing that fixes it to the frame in a triangulated way, meaning that in addition to the bb shell connection, it also has an arm from the housing fixed to another part of the frame so that it makes a triangle thru the frame and housing, since a triangle can't be "bent" at it's points. that way it can't rock back and forth.

if it has side to side rocking, for instance from pedal pressure, then the tolerances of the bb bearings or the bb shell mounts need to be tighter, so that it has no play. (since there isn't an easy way of adding a triangulating arm like there may be for the other problem).

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