New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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SirJohnDoe   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by SirJohnDoe » Jan 06 2020 6:35am

Hiya guys,

I've been using the TDSZ2 for about 5 months now for my daily commute, and did about 4300 kms so far.

Unfortunately today I ran into some trouble: after occasional resistance when pedaling (the crank would jam every few turns, especially when slowing down), it eventually got stuck. Now it's not even rotating anymore. The motorworks fine, and when I manage to turn the pedals it is assisted by the motor. I was thinking it's probably the nylon gear because I did quite some more km's then most here do with the blue gear, but this more like the reverse of the slipping that others report. Can anyone enlighten me what it could be?

Cheers

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 06 2020 6:51am

SirJohnDoe wrote:
Jan 06 2020 6:35am
Hiya guys,

I've been using the TDSZ2 for about 5 months now for my daily commute, and did about 4300 kms so far.

Unfortunately today I ran into some trouble: after occasional resistance when pedaling (the crank would jam every few turns, especially when slowing down), it eventually got stuck. Now it's not even rotating anymore. The motorworks fine, and when I manage to turn the pedals it is assisted by the motor. I was thinking it's probably the nylon gear because I did quite some more km's then most here do with the blue gear, but this more like the reverse of the slipping that others report. Can anyone enlighten me what it could be?

Cheers
See the wiki information about the issue about of clutch on main gear to understand how TSDZ2 works on this - I would bet on that and not on the blue gear.
The main gear clutch may be blocked.

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... i/wiki/FAQ
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

maximusdm   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by maximusdm » Jan 06 2020 7:33am

My torque sensor died so I had to open it up.
This is how It looks now, except that I repaid the broken wires. Still I have same error after assembly. With only the external ring connected I have no error, only with both parts in place.

My questions are:
1. Is there any tutorial explaining how to disassemble the sensor? I had to use the axle and bash it with a big hammer to get it out and I do not like it.
2. Both coil rings on the motor and torque sensor are not glued on the motor or sensor. I do not understand how this can work if the 2 pieces are permanently rubbing against each other.
3. If there is beyond repair(with the wire fixed I do not see why) I can order a new one but still I have no idea how the coils should fit and I do not like the idea to bash a new sensor.

Image

Image

Image

thineight   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Jan 06 2020 7:49am

SirJohnDoe wrote:
Jan 06 2020 6:35am
Hiya guys,

I've been using the TDSZ2 for about 5 months now for my daily commute, and did about 4300 kms so far.

Unfortunately today I ran into some trouble: after occasional resistance when pedaling (the crank would jam every few turns, especially when slowing down), it eventually got stuck. Now it's not even rotating anymore. The motorworks fine, and when I manage to turn the pedals it is assisted by the motor. I was thinking it's probably the nylon gear because I did quite some more km's then most here do with the blue gear, but this more like the reverse of the slipping that others report. Can anyone enlighten me what it could be?

Cheers
About 40 km each day to commute to work.. you are my new hero. :mrgreen:

Do you live in a cold place? Is maybe something related to the grease getting "harder" compared to the hot season?
I remember last year I went out one very cold day and I experienced some slippage of the bearing clutch, that did not happen anymore during other trips.
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 06 2020 8:47am

maximusdm wrote:
Jan 06 2020 7:33am
My questions are:
1. Is there any tutorial explaining how to disassemble the sensor? I had to use the axle and bash it with a big hammer to get it out and I do not like it.
2. Both coil rings on the motor and torque sensor are not glued on the motor or sensor. I do not understand how this can work if the 2 pieces are permanently rubbing against each other.
There are some information on wiki, would be great if you could improve it further:

Torque sensor
- How TSDZ2 torque sensor works
- How to calibrate the torque sensor

See here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... que_sensor
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 06 2020 9:17am

Has anyone found a way of holding the 3 small springs beneath the Torque Sensor in place whilst putting the shaft back into position, I seem to jostle the springs enough when lightly hammering the shaft back to dislodge the springs.

Interestingly this engine which I've got apart was drowned in about 1 metre of water for a few minutes, surprisingly how small amount of water had entered the engine. Enough to force us to investigate and glad we did as there was a small thimble of water inside, but never the less, pretty good considering.

thineight   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Jan 06 2020 10:16am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 06 2020 9:17am
Has anyone found a way of holding the 3 small springs beneath the Torque Sensor in place whilst putting the shaft back into position, I seem to jostle the springs enough when lightly hammering the shaft back to dislodge the springs.
You can put three hints of grease on spring location.. it is sticky enough to hold them in place.
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 06 2020 11:39am

It is not everytime that we can give a big improvement step on the firmware, so, I am also announcing here:

TSDZ2 firmware: motor control resolution increased 4 times!!

New good improvement to the motor firmware, now the assistance is smoother and it is easily noticeable at low power values like bellow 100W.

Previous I improved the torque sensor sensitivity also by 4 times as also implemented full linearization / full calibration. Now, with a so nice sensitivity torque sensor, there is the need to also have a more sensitivity motor control!!

Changelog:
- motor control resolution increased 4 times, meaning a smoother assistance and it is very important at power values like bellow 100W. Previous min power assistance value was 30W, then 60W, then 90W (on a 52V battery) and so on, now it is 8W, 15W, 24W and so on
- added configuration on display for min current value (in ADC steps) while pedaling, even if not presing the pedals. This is nice to keep motor engaged and ready even if rotating pedals with minimal force that it is not even detected by the torque sensor
- corrected issue where the motor had resistance when rotating bicycle backwards
- other small improvements

Download here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... 50C_v0.6.2
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Jan 06 2020 1:23pm

"There are ppl who like pedal bike like bikes over here and there, and same goes for motorcycle like bikes."
When your legal limit is 750W/ 28mph and many bikes can go 35mph it makes sense that the tires,wheels, brakes and suspension will start to resemble motorcycles. They have to. I own one of each type, and a TSDZ2 that is neither.

Many Americans approach E Bikes as something to replace their car. They don't ride bikes much for transportation. 30mph is seen as a minimum useful speed. Retirees and beach goers may be interested in 20mph bikes. Commuters are not. It's a completely different environment. The TSDZ2 would be a perfect fit if it really were a 750W PAS motor. But continuos reliable use at 28MPH seems to be beyond it. A shame really. Maybe there's a TSDZ3 on the way?

andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Jan 06 2020 4:40pm

Retrorockit wrote:
Jan 06 2020 1:23pm
"There are ppl who like pedal bike like bikes over here and there, and same goes for motorcycle like bikes."
When your legal limit is 750W/ 28mph and many bikes can go 35mph it makes sense that the tires,wheels, brakes and suspension will start to resemble motorcycles. They have to. I own one of each type, and a TSDZ2 that is neither.

Many Americans approach E Bikes as something to replace their car. They don't ride bikes much for transportation. 30mph is seen as a minimum useful speed. Retirees and beach goers may be interested in 20mph bikes. Commuters are not. It's a completely different environment. The TSDZ2 would be a perfect fit if it really were a 750W PAS motor. But continuos reliable use at 28MPH seems to be beyond it. A shame really. Maybe there's a TSDZ3 on the way?
You can see this
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=104056

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 06 2020 6:09pm

Need a bit of diagnostic help.

Trying to get a motor back operable from having had a small amount of water enter into the unit.

Dried it all out and the VLCD5 display was showing an EO 3 code on startup, everything else such as light, assistance levels etc all work OK on the display. There's no motor function with the attached throttle.

I've changed the controller to one I had here and now the EO 3 is not displayed but still no motor with throttle input ( sitting on bench with all connections made ). I've gone into the diagnostic screen and the TE and T1 code displays but the ODO display remains at 0000, should this be expected or should that lower ODO screen be displaying a figure of some kind ?

Is there any way we can get voltage readings off the motor field windings connections to check if the motor is getting any input voltage ?

Any help would be appreciated.

RicMcK   10 W

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P850C Vs 850c?

Post by RicMcK » Jan 06 2020 8:22pm

Can someone in the know tell me what the difference is between the "P850C" and the "850C" displays?

Does the "new FW" (just released) run on both versions?

Thanks
Rick Seattle WA

maximusdm   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by maximusdm » Jan 07 2020 4:18am

Thanks for the info. Things are clearer now.
What I still do not know is how did the others press in the torque sensor while the inner ring is pressed by the small springs towards it. A lot of people worked on the sensor and I assume there are some ideas.

cejean   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by cejean » Jan 07 2020 12:23pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 06 2020 9:17am
Has anyone found a way of holding the 3 small springs beneath the Torque Sensor in place whilst putting the shaft back into position, I seem to jostle the springs enough when lightly hammering the shaft back to dislodge the springs.
I Always put a little bit hot glue on the3 springs.
I never hammer the shaft back to dislodge but use threaded studs an bolts for it to put it back.

SirJohnDoe   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by SirJohnDoe » Jan 07 2020 2:17pm

casainho wrote:
Jan 06 2020 6:51am
SirJohnDoe wrote:
Jan 06 2020 6:35am
Hiya guys,

I've been using the TDSZ2 for about 5 months now for my daily commute, and did about 4300 kms so far.

Unfortunately today I ran into some trouble: after occasional resistance when pedaling (the crank would jam every few turns, especially when slowing down), it eventually got stuck. Now it's not even rotating anymore. The motorworks fine, and when I manage to turn the pedals it is assisted by the motor. I was thinking it's probably the nylon gear because I did quite some more km's then most here do with the blue gear, but this more like the reverse of the slipping that others report. Can anyone enlighten me what it could be?

Cheers
See the wiki information about the issue about of clutch on main gear to understand how TSDZ2 works on this - I would bet on that and not on the blue gear.
The main gear clutch may be blocked.

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... i/wiki/FAQ
I'm going to take a look, thanks for the advice.
thineight wrote:
Jan 06 2020 7:49am
SirJohnDoe wrote:
Jan 06 2020 6:35am
Hiya guys,

I've been using the TDSZ2 for about 5 months now for my daily commute, and did about 4300 kms so far.

Unfortunately today I ran into some trouble: after occasional resistance when pedaling (the crank would jam every few turns, especially when slowing down), it eventually got stuck. Now it's not even rotating anymore. The motorworks fine, and when I manage to turn the pedals it is assisted by the motor. I was thinking it's probably the nylon gear because I did quite some more km's then most here do with the blue gear, but this more like the reverse of the slipping that others report. Can anyone enlighten me what it could be?

Cheers
About 40 km each day to commute to work.. you are my new hero. :mrgreen:

Do you live in a cold place? Is maybe something related to the grease getting "harder" compared to the hot season?
I remember last year I went out one very cold day and I experienced some slippage of the bearing clutch, that did not happen anymore during other trips.
Now i'm doing the 40 km on a non-electric bike :wink: It's been about 0-5 degrees celcius here the last few days/weeks, but the crank completely stopped turning halfway through my commute so I think it might be the gears.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 07 2020 2:44pm

maximusdm wrote:
Jan 07 2020 4:18am
Thanks for the info. Things are clearer now.
What I still do not know is how did the others press in the torque sensor while the inner ring is pressed by the small springs towards it. A lot of people worked on the sensor and I assume there are some ideas.
Some way back in the thread someone suggested the old trick of heating the case lightly and cooling the shaft, went looking for it but can’t seem to find it, or did I imagine this ? Anybody tried this ?

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Jan 08 2020 9:10am

Does VLCD6 also turns the motor off after 5 minutes. Switched to Shimano Claris brake lever unit trigger shifters on a 42t/45t half-step gearing so there is no space (clearance) for the old XH18 on the left side anymore.
The one with the opensource firmware is a bit too obvious (big) for an ebike. Similar smaller ones should also work as well. As far as I understand if one is too lazy to program then buying preprogrammed controller or whole motor is the only option.

Mike-P   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mike-P » Jan 08 2020 12:37pm

My TSDZ2 suddenly stopped assisting today - display okay working lights correctly but no assistance from the motor. Do I take it needs a new torque sensor or could it be something else?

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 08 2020 5:31pm

Check that your torque sensor is operating correctly by going into the maintenance part of the setup screen on the VLCD5, you have two fields which show the torque sensor readings.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jan 08 2020 5:41pm

Mike-P wrote:
Jan 08 2020 12:37pm
My TSDZ2 suddenly stopped assisting today - display okay working lights correctly but no assistance from the motor. Do I take it needs a new torque sensor or could it be something else?
Install our OpenSource firmware and so you will be able to see and debug the state of the various input sensors like the cadence, torque sensor, throttle, brakes and motor hall sensors.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

Mike-P   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mike-P » Jan 09 2020 7:48am

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 08 2020 5:31pm
Check that your torque sensor is operating correctly by going into the maintenance part of the setup screen on the VLCD5, you have two fields which show the torque sensor readings.
Tried that but some reason it jumps back to the main display before reaching it. Have just been out on the bike and the motor occasionally kicked in. I have had problems with the VLCD5 with it not showing speed or battery level at times and wondering whether its a fault with that - have a SW102 hopefully arriving today so I'll try it with that before investigating further.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 09 2020 11:42am

Press the info and off/on button together for at least 10 seconds ( do count it as 10 seconds is longer than you think ) with the ODO displaying, the display shows nothing to indicate that you are now able to go to the maintenance section. Now press the info button 4 times and you should see the extra display. Be careful though as if you continue to push the info button it will take you out of the maintenance section.

All the time we have had here with the motor kicking in and out has been to do with the speed sensor and the magnet being to close or the magnet on the spokes has been turned sideways, you may want to check on that first.

Mike-P   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Mike-P » Jan 09 2020 1:51pm

Waynemarlow wrote:
Jan 09 2020 11:42am
All the time we have had here with the motor kicking in and out has been to do with the speed sensor and the magnet
Thanks for the info re the maintenance section :thumb: Its not the magnet - speed display is working fine on the display currently. The SW102 did arrive but not the necessary cable :( Think I'll leave it till the weekend to investigate further.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Jan 09 2020 6:23pm

For those running Power Assist Mode on OSF v0.20, do you feel it favours cadence over torque input? I don't get much assist when more pedal effort is required, such as climbing a hill with dropping cadence or maintaining a high speed. On flat ground up to a certain effort it seems fine.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Jan 09 2020 7:35pm

Set your display up to show motor watts, it’s surprising how much the motor will input in without you really being aware.

If you want better torque control then move from the power mode to purely torque mode, it’s there just enable it.

The other thing to try is play with your power levels, we had to play a little bit with numbers to get something that we liked, it’s very easy to do, we worked out what max watts we wanted, calculated that number and then worked backwards down through the levels so that we had a small overlap on each.

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