Preventing BBSHD Removal

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Toadster   100 µW

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Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Toadster » Nov 14 2019 8:40pm

Hello,

I just purchased a BBSHD conversion kit and I am wondering if there is a way to prevent the removal of the motor from the bike frame. The only thing I can think of at this moment is using permanent strength thread locker on either the lock rings or the crank arm bolt. I know it would require high heat for removal (300f for permatex red permanent thread locker) and that this risks damaging seals in the BBSHD. Does anybody else have ideas on securing the BBSHD motor?

Thanks

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Matador   10 kW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Matador » Nov 14 2019 10:14pm

Maybe epoxy some ball bearings in the allen screw holes so no stealer can remove it

Balmorhea   10 kW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Balmorhea » Nov 14 2019 10:26pm

Seems like the rest of the bike would be picked over before someone developed the initiative to swipe the BBSHD. It implies a pretty bad parking situation.

Toadster   100 µW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Toadster » Nov 15 2019 2:03am

Matador wrote:
Nov 14 2019 10:14pm
Maybe epoxy some ball bearings in the allen screw holes so no stealer can remove it
I like this idea! Are there any epoxies that can be dissolved if the crank arms need to be removed?

sleepy_tired   100 W

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by sleepy_tired » Nov 15 2019 4:10am

Most of the time glues can be softened up with some heat.

Balmorhea   10 kW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Balmorhea » Nov 15 2019 5:27am

Toadster wrote:
Nov 15 2019 2:03am
Matador wrote:
Nov 14 2019 10:14pm
Maybe epoxy some ball bearings in the allen screw holes so no stealer can remove it
I like this idea! Are there any epoxies that can be dissolved if the crank arms need to be removed?
It's not a good idea. Mid drive cranks are more likely to loosen than normal bike cranks (for the same fundamental reason that left cranks are more likely to loosen than right cranks), and they need to be checked for tightness periodically. But you can't tighten them if you sabotage them.

Why the imperative to take such measures? Have you had a mid drive stolen from your bike? That would be a new thing to me.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by fechter » Nov 15 2019 9:44am

Most people don't carry around a Bafang locking ring wrench and those rings can be hard to remove even if you have a wrench. Install the ring very tight and maybe use some thread locking agent.

You might be able to find bolts for the crank arms with "tamper resistant" heads that require a special tool. I guess you would only need one on the side opposite the chain ring.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

AZeBikeGuy   10 W

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Nov 15 2019 10:17am

Seems to me if folks have the time and determination to remove a BBSHD from a frame, one can succeed no matter what anti-removal prevention measures or they'll just take the whole bike... I don't really get the concern

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E-HP   100 kW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by E-HP » Nov 15 2019 10:20am

Maybe it would be possible to drill and tap a set screw through the bottom of the bottom bracket shell that prevents the unit from sliding out, even if the lock ring is removed? That can be red loctited in, and be able to withstand the heat if you need to remove it.

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Volt_Ampere » Nov 15 2019 10:36am

I would worry much more about losing my battery - hard to make a battery mount that can't be easily defeated. You need tools and time to remove the mid drive - the thief is more likely to steal the whole bike. Bike thief is going to carry something to cut your lock before he will carry tools to remove your mid drive motor.

Toadster   100 µW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Toadster » Nov 15 2019 12:54pm

I am concerned about the BBSHD being easily removed and stolen since I will be leaving my bike locked up for ~8 hours at a time. The bike is easily locked up and I have some highly recommended locks (such as the one LockpickingLawyer uses). I will be taking my battery in with me so it's not too much of a concern.

Instead of a ball bearing, I was thinking of gluing a piece of wood dowel in the crank bolt. It's removed easily enough and I doubt a thief would be prepared for it. I also like the idea of getting a tamper proof security bolt for the crank arm.

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by 2old » Nov 15 2019 1:02pm

There's at least one company that makes bolts with unique patterns to prevent parts theft; look it up. That seems the most feasible way to prevent theft of the motor. Also possible to ruin the "inside" threads on the crank arm so it couldn't be removed with a bike tool, but the thief might return with a gear puller the next day.
Last edited by 2old on Nov 16 2019 12:32am, edited 1 time in total.

AZeBikeGuy   10 W

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Nov 15 2019 1:56pm

No matter how good your lock is, it will almost certainly take less time to defeat it (I'd guess no more than five or six minutes with a portable angle grinder) than to remove the BBSHD

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Toadster » Nov 15 2019 5:03pm

AZeBikeGuy wrote:
Nov 15 2019 1:56pm
No matter how good your lock is, it will almost certainly take less time to defeat it (I'd guess no more than five or six minutes with a portable angle grinder) than to remove the BBSHD
This is true but the more barricades you put in place the more likely it is that a thief will have second thoughts.

Toadster   100 µW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Toadster » Nov 15 2019 5:08pm

Does anyone know the BBSHD crank arm bolt thread pitch and count?

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Matador   10 kW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Matador » Nov 15 2019 8:02pm

Toadster wrote:
Nov 15 2019 5:08pm
Does anyone know the BBSHD crank arm bolt thread pitch and count?
It would probably be easy to build temper proof screws yourself using metal rods and a die to make screw threads.

PS: i got the idea of epoxying ball bearing in hex screw holes from the advices of Hal Ruzal, a well known dude from Bicycle Habitats in Manhattan who makes tons of videos on Youtube on how to properly lock your bike, theif deterent technics and tricks/hacks to not get your bike stolen in Manhattan NYC. It's really worth checking his vids on youtube on how to properly lock your bike, which lock to use, etc etc from Hal Ruzal.

Matador.

Btw, just a bit of epoxy can easily be removed and the ball bearing can pop right off if you pry it of with a thin sharp tool like a small exacto blade. The goal is to deter theives who often carry hex key sets in their pockets. The glued ball bearings just prevent the thieves from inserting the hex key into the hex srew to unscrew it. Theives would likely find it extremly rannoying and call it quits to take the time to unglue every ball bearing before actually being able to unscrew each screw.l to steal your bike parts.

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E-HP   100 kW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by E-HP » Nov 15 2019 8:38pm

If they're really after your motor, it would take 2 minutes to cut through four aluminum tubes (down tube, seat tube , chain stays) with an angle grinder and walk off. They can play with your epoxied balls at their leisure.
Last edited by E-HP on Nov 15 2019 8:40pm, edited 1 time in total.

Toadster   100 µW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Toadster » Nov 15 2019 8:40pm

E-HP wrote:
Nov 15 2019 8:38pm
If they're really after your motor, it would take 2 minutes to cut through four aluminum tubes (down tube, seat tube , chain stays) with an angle grinder and walk off.
Right but the point is they'd have to take more extreme measures like cutting through the tubes. This draws attention and increases risk to the perpetrator.

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E-HP   100 kW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by E-HP » Nov 15 2019 8:43pm

Toadster wrote:
Nov 15 2019 8:40pm
E-HP wrote:
Nov 15 2019 8:38pm
If they're really after your motor, it would take 2 minutes to cut through four aluminum tubes (down tube, seat tube , chain stays) with an angle grinder and walk off.
Right but the point is they'd have to take more extreme measures like cutting through the tubes. This draws attention and increases risk to the perpetrator.
I think I could do it in less than a minute. Aluminum is like butter for an angle grinder. This guy's cutting through a Kryptonite lock, which is why it takes him 2 minutes.
https://youtu.be/kcHOVSsfXQ0

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Matador   10 kW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Matador » Nov 15 2019 8:49pm

Exactly. You got this right. Of course if your against long working time and an angle grinder an multiple battery back for that portable angle grinding, and grinding disks nothing can resist... You could grind into a bank safe if you were so inclined. The goal is to deter theives... A pro thieve who is determined to get you bike at all costs (if it's worth that kind of price for the risk) will get it. But at least you can deter 95% of the other thieves, like the opportunistic theif and the junky theif looking for a fix.

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Matador   10 kW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Matador » Nov 15 2019 8:56pm

The solution to all this is to buy a bike lock made of materiel much tougher than disk grinders... Very high hardness ratio. Basically buy a lock made of diamond carbon.

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by Balmorhea » Nov 15 2019 9:18pm

Matador wrote:
Nov 15 2019 8:56pm
The solution to all this is to buy a bike lock made of materiel much tougher than disk grinders... Very high hardness ratio. Basically buy a lock made of diamond carbon.
How about sorting out a better parking situation? To me, that seems likely to yield better results for cost and effort.

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E-HP   100 kW

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by E-HP » Nov 15 2019 9:21pm

Balmorhea wrote:
Nov 15 2019 9:18pm
Matador wrote:
Nov 15 2019 8:56pm
The solution to all this is to buy a bike lock made of materiel much tougher than disk grinders... Very high hardness ratio. Basically buy a lock made of diamond carbon.
How about sorting out a better parking situation? To me, that seems likely to yield better results for cost and effort.
I agree. If the the motor is the goal, locks don't help; unless his frame is made of case hardened steel. Aluminum is butter to a hacksaw even.

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Nov 16 2019 8:59am

I'm pretty sure the odds that someone even wants to steal the just motor are far less than the odds they'd just steal the bike instead

A thief is usually interest in selling the bike or parts and what value is there to a not only used motor, but one that's stolen? Why not the entire bike which would have a much higher resale or could simply be parted out at that point?

Can anyone, anywhere point to a credible report of motor-only theft?

Finding reports of ebike thefts is pretty easy I think

This just seems like such a red herring

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Re: Preventing BBSHD Removal

Post by dogman dan » Nov 17 2019 7:33am

I have to agree, they take really easy stuff like your saddle or front wheel, or they take the whole bike. The real pro thieves have cordless grinders to cut any lock in 10 seconds. Or, they just target cable locks and cut the cable with nail clippers. That way they don't carry burglar tools around.

So your locks will help with some thieves, but not with the real pro's.

Your best deterrent is going to be don't leave a nice bike someplace bad for 8 hours. You need a shit bike they won't even want the saddle off of it. Leave a piece of crap with rust and shitty paint on it, and a cheap ass front hub wheel on it at that place.

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