My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
batboy   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 28 2019 10:28pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by batboy » Oct 28 2019 10:31pm

I need some advice on the frame sizes. I usually fit the "small" sized frames when purchasing bikes but the Frey bikes only come in medium or larger sizes. I am 5' 5" tall. Ivy thinks the medium will fit but reading through this I see some people that are 5'10" and the medium is a good fit.

formula101   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 387
Joined: Jun 05 2019 2:19am

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by formula101 » Oct 28 2019 11:10pm

As a very general rule of thumb, for mtb sizing:

Small: 5'5" and under

Medium: 5'6" to 5'10"

Large: 5'11"+

XL: at least 6'2" or 6'3"

You might be able to make a size medium work. It's probably possible with a shorter stem (which will make steering noticeably quicker), and perhaps a shoe with a slightly larger heel for a little bit more standover. I definitely know riders who are 5'5" and 5'6" who can ride a small or medium, depending on geometry and personal preference.

Normally I'd recommend a test ride but obviously that's not possible with this model. I recommend finding an mtb with similar geometry, esp. reach and standover, to see if the geometry at least works for you.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Oct 28 2019 11:59pm

When you ride on a small frame, how far forward do you have the seat on the seat post?

I got a medium, and I'm 5'9". I have to extend the seat post significantly if I want my legs to extend. Are you going to go offroad with it on rough trails where you would need a dropper to get the seat out of the way? What's your inseam?

Aren't most measurements usually within about an inch between frame sizes anyway? I imagine anyone could go up or down a size and still be ok though I don't know what the long-term effects might be.
batboy wrote:
Oct 28 2019 10:31pm
I need some advice on the frame sizes. I usually fit the "small" sized frames when purchasing bikes but the Frey bikes only come in medium or larger sizes. I am 5' 5" tall. Ivy thinks the medium will fit but reading through this I see some people that are 5'10" and the medium is a good fit.
Last edited by robocam on Oct 29 2019 3:39am, edited 1 time in total.

Sinbord1981   100 W

100 W
Posts: 126
Joined: Apr 13 2019 1:31am

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Sinbord1981 » Oct 29 2019 2:24am

batboy wrote:
Oct 28 2019 10:31pm
I need some advice on the frame sizes. I usually fit the "small" sized frames when purchasing bikes but the Frey bikes only come in medium or larger sizes. I am 5' 5" tall. Ivy thinks the medium will fit but reading through this I see some people that are 5'10" and the medium is a good fit.
Hi Batboy - message me direct if you’d like to come and try mine out for size. It’s an AM1000 v5 medium frame. It should be fine for you. Cheers.

batboy   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 28 2019 10:28pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by batboy » Oct 29 2019 12:20pm

Sinbord1981 wrote:
Oct 29 2019 2:24am
batboy wrote:
Oct 28 2019 10:31pm
I need some advice on the frame sizes. I usually fit the "small" sized frames when purchasing bikes but the Frey bikes only come in medium or larger sizes. I am 5' 5" tall. Ivy thinks the medium will fit but reading through this I see some people that are 5'10" and the medium is a good fit.
Hi Batboy - message me direct if you’d like to come and try mine out for size. It’s an AM1000 v5 medium frame. It should be fine for you. Cheers.
I'd love to stop by and give your bike a try, but I am located in Minnesota, USA.

batboy   10 µW

10 µW
Posts: 5
Joined: Oct 28 2019 10:28pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by batboy » Oct 29 2019 12:22pm

robocam wrote:
Oct 28 2019 11:59pm
When you ride on a small frame, how far forward do you have the seat on the seat post?

I got a medium, and I'm 5'9". I have to extend the seat post significantly if I want my legs to extend. Are you going to go offroad with it on rough trails where you would need a dropper to get the seat out of the way? What's your inseam?

Aren't most measurements usually within about an inch between frame sizes anyway? I imagine anyone could go up or down a size and still be ok though I don't know what the long-term effects might be.
batboy wrote:
Oct 28 2019 10:31pm
I need some advice on the frame sizes. I usually fit the "small" sized frames when purchasing bikes but the Frey bikes only come in medium or larger sizes. I am 5' 5" tall. Ivy thinks the medium will fit but reading through this I see some people that are 5'10" and the medium is a good fit.
I'll be using the bike for offroad. My inseam is 28"

Tjeska   10 W

10 W
Posts: 79
Joined: Sep 26 2016 2:48am
Location: Europe

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Tjeska » Oct 29 2019 3:30pm

Got message today from Grace:

One AM1000 XL, Magura brakes, Lyrik fork, Sram EX-1 & gear sensor, 48V 21AH pack ready for shipment!

Image

Cant wait until its here, got a great custom decal set ready and a dropper post for it!
Have some other mods in mind for it once its here. :D
Last edited by Tjeska on Oct 31 2019 3:15am, edited 1 time in total.

formula101   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 387
Joined: Jun 05 2019 2:19am

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by formula101 » Oct 29 2019 3:40pm

You're going to have zero to negative standover with a 28" inseam, even with shoes, on a medium. And yeah, standover clearance definitely matters when you need to quickly dismount. In your case, I was going to recommend a different Frey model, the CC:

http://www.frey.bike/full-suspension-eMTB/Frey-CC.htm

No problems with standover, and it's full suspension. However, geometry is only listed for a size L, with an enormous 48cm reach, so I still doubt this Frey would work for you. Maybe contact them and see if they offer multiple sizes, but don't count on it.

Image

If you insist on a very powerful mid drive, your best bet would be to find a size small mountain bike that you enjoy riding and then mod with a mid drive from a company like Luna (I've heard lots of bad reports about this company, but this is the industry norm at this point). Or, get some recommendations for mid drive add-ons from this forum.

But yeah, I wouldn't count on a Frey working out for you sizing wise.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Oct 29 2019 4:00pm

Just wanted to chime in about Luna Cycle. I've purchased many many items from them over the past few years (since 2016), and I have been very pleased with their service. In the rare instances that I encountered problems, they have gone above and beyond what others would have done. For example, I once purchased a Cyclone 3000 kit from them, and the triple chainring assembly (3 chainrings attached to a freewheel) I ordered was out of stock. They sent me a double chainring assembly for free just so that I wouldn't be without one, and then they sent me the triple chainring assembly later, and they let me keep the double. Another time I ordered an X-1 from them and it arrived with a defective Bafang thumb switch. They sent me a replacement at no charge (which is what I would have expected but I appreciate this). The people at Luna Cycle will bend over backwards to fix any problems you might have, and I've witnessed this in their Facebook group.

Speaking of the X-1, it comes in a small.

You could also modify your own bike with a kit from Revel Propulsion. It only adds 10 lbs.
formula101 wrote:
Oct 29 2019 3:40pm
...from a company like Luna (I've heard lots of bad reports about this company, but this is the industry norm at this point)...

formula101   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 387
Joined: Jun 05 2019 2:19am

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by formula101 » Oct 29 2019 4:36pm

That front triangle won't allow a standover of less than 30" even in a small. If you want standover clearance, you'll want a standard mtb with an add=on kit. That huge integrated battery and very long head tube eliminates the possibility of any standover.

Image

Take a look at the Marin Hawk Hill or Giant Trance 27.5 Both bikes will have standover clearance, especially in a size small, and both are highly regarded.

Image

FlyingFinn   100 W

100 W
Posts: 120
Joined: Jan 03 2018 7:48pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FlyingFinn » Oct 29 2019 5:07pm

Warning concerning the FAT1000!

I broke my rear-hub freewheel ratchets yesterday. Rear hub started to make huge bang-noises when pedaling hard. Chain wasn’t skipping or changing gear. Sprockets are 100% intact. The freewheel started to slip more and more after a half an hour when returning home. Then it slipped with huge bangs multiple times within one rotation.

Bike was in use for two weeks and 200km’s. The hub is now being opened and replaced by a professional bike shop. These no-name Quanta fatbike hubs aren’t strong enough for 1500W Bafang! Bike weighs 30kg’s and I 110kg. This is simply too much.

Had to buy a DT Swiss rear hub for 259€!!! It was the last example in the whole of Finland. No other options since I don’t want to wait for months without the bike which I need to go to work with daily.

I opened a partial refund case for $130 in AliBaba. This episode is going to cost me atleast 350€ replacement work included! Will provide pictures ASAP here and to Frey when I get them from the bikeshop. There is no sense to install another crappy chinese hub. It won’t last longer than two weeks!

I think Frey shouldn’t use a cheap rear hub in a bike that has high torque and weight. Front hub can be anything but atleast the rear hub should be top-notch. If it costs more then raise the price accordingly. Otherwise the bike is of a superior quality and I love Frey. Please just invest on the quality rear hubs because if they fail, the whole rear wheel must be basically re-built including the spokes. In Europe an hour of maintenance costs around 50€ so this could cost with spare parts up to 450€!!!

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Oct 29 2019 5:45pm

I just measured my medium X-1, and it is 29" from the ground at the lowest point.

I'll ask over at the X-1 thread to see if anyone is 5'5".

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kn ... o-fs-ebike

I would consider something with a frame similar to this Specialized Rumor so that you can fit the motor inside the triangle. Here's the 10 lb Revel Propulsion kit.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... FBaWlqLTFn
formula101 wrote:
Oct 29 2019 4:36pm
That front triangle won't allow a standover of less than 30" even in a small. If you want standover clearance, you'll want a standard mtb with an add=on kit. That huge integrated battery and very long head tube eliminates the possibility of any standover.
Last edited by robocam on Oct 29 2019 7:01pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Oct 29 2019 5:56pm

Why $130? Why didn't you just contact Frey first to see what they would say, or did you do that? But I do agree it seems they should pick a different rear hub though mine hasn't failed yet. I came across someone on Facebook selling a set of front and rear wheels with practically brand new tires from a 2019 Giant for $125, so I couldn't resist. The rims and tires are tubeless compatible too. They'll be my backup. You could have also gotten a new wheel off eBay. Can't imagine it costing more than $200.

For the non-fat version, if you want to try 29" wheels, you can get an entire DT Swiss wheelset for $250 shipped! Unfortunately it doesn't have a Shimano compatible hub though.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254304061175
FlyingFinn wrote:
Oct 29 2019 5:07pm
...I opened a partial refund case for $130 in AliBaba. This episode is going to cost me atleast 350€ replacement work included! Will provide pictures ASAP here and to Frey when I get them from the bikeshop...

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Oct 29 2019 6:08pm

Nice! Have fun with it!
Tjeska wrote:
Oct 29 2019 3:30pm
Got message today from Grace:

One AM1000 XL, Magura brakes, Lyrik fork, Sram EX-1 & gear sensor, 48V 21AH pack ready for shipment!

Image

Cant wait until its here, got a great custom decal set ready and a dropper post for it!
Have some other mods in mind for it once its here. :D

FlyingFinn   100 W

100 W
Posts: 120
Joined: Jan 03 2018 7:48pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FlyingFinn » Oct 29 2019 6:12pm

robocam wrote:
Oct 29 2019 5:56pm
Why $130? Why didn't you just contact Frey first to see what they would say, or did you do that? But I do agree it seems they should pick a different rear hub though mine hasn't failed yet. I came across someone on Facebook selling a set of front and rear wheels with practically brand new tires from a 2019 Giant for $125, so I couldn't resist. The rims and tires are tubeless compatible too. They'll be my backup. You could have also gotten a new wheel off eBay. Can't imagine it costing more than $200.

For the non-fat version, if you want to try 29" wheels, you can get an entire DT Swiss wheelset for $250 shipped! Unfortunately it doesn't have a Shimano compatible hub though.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254304061175
I thought it would be the value of the broken hub. I will contact Frey tomorrow when I get the pictures from the repair shop.

Firstly there is no eBay here (there is but no private vendors will ship here, only companies).
Secondly a $250 wheelset is possible for common axle lengths where there is offering. Try to find a fatbike wheelset with mishmash 150x15 and 190x12 for $250 when the tires are $170, hubs $270, brake discs $50 and spokes $100 new. You have no idea how expensive fatbike parts are. Quality or manufacturing expenses aren’t significantly higher. There is just way less competition which raises prices. Especially in Europe where most parts arrive via US. Fatbiking is a very American invention so the offering is slimmer in Europe though we have alot of fatbikers as well.
Last edited by FlyingFinn on Oct 29 2019 6:27pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Oct 29 2019 6:25pm

Ok, I hope everything works out. I just think that most sellers would probably prefer that you contact them first so that they can help you out before having to file any type of claim, which could ding their reputation in the system (I have no idea how Alibaba works though). Sellers would probably be more willing to help you and give you more if you contact them first.

Anyway, good luck!
FlyingFinn wrote:
Oct 29 2019 6:12pm


I thought it would be the value of the broken hub. I will contact Frey tomorrow when I get the pictures from the repair shop.
robocam wrote:
Oct 29 2019 5:56pm
Why $130? Why didn't you just contact Frey first to see what they would say...

FlyingFinn   100 W

100 W
Posts: 120
Joined: Jan 03 2018 7:48pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FlyingFinn » Oct 29 2019 6:39pm

robocam wrote:
Oct 29 2019 6:25pm
Also, you may have wanted to wait until you had a resolution before making it public.
I hope you understand that it’s not only about me in this world. I wish the community knows about this issue since all their FAT1000’s apparently house this very same rear hub and which signs to look for before a total failure. When the rear hub fails for the last time you are propably pedaling hard. It will make cranks spin underneath your whole body weight in a split second. Faceplanting to the asphalt is a true risk I wish everyone to avoid. This can cause death even with a helmet on.

If you don’t believe me, check this: https://youtu.be/sxKwwj0yGAY 3:05 —>

formula101   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 387
Joined: Jun 05 2019 2:19am

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by formula101 » Oct 29 2019 6:50pm

robocam wrote:
Oct 29 2019 5:45pm
I just measured my medium X-1, and it is 29" from the ground at the lowest point.

I'll ask over at the X-1 thread to see if anyone is 5'5".

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kn ... o-fs-ebike

I would consider something like a Specialized so that you can fit the motor inside the triangle. Here's the 10 lb Revel Propulsion kit.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... FBaWlqLTFn
formula101 wrote:
Oct 29 2019 4:36pm
That front triangle won't allow a standover of less than 30" even in a small. If you want standover clearance, you'll want a standard mtb with an add=on kit. That huge integrated battery and very long head tube eliminates the possibility of any standover.
Do you mind posting a photo? The question is what is the standover at the point where someone would actually stand over the bicycle not the lowest possible standover measurement obtainable.

In bicycle shoes, someone with a 28" inseam might improve their standover by half an inch.

Bikes these days (27.5, 29, 26 with fat tires) with suspension, aren't really designed to have much more than 29" of standover in a best case scenario.

Be careful with Luna: some of their claims are misleading: they say they use the highest quality parts. However, they spec Eagle SX which is their lowest end 12 speed group. sx, nx, gx, xo, xx.

FYI: the X1 is sold out.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Oct 29 2019 6:56pm

I'm glad you want to warn the community that you can face-plant if the rear hub fails. I misinterpreted your post, and I apologize. I've just seen so many social media posts of people freaking out when a component on their bike fails and they take it to the world instead of trying to resolve it with the seller first.

Maybe I'll change my rear wheel before this happens. Thanks for the warning.
FlyingFinn wrote:
Oct 29 2019 6:39pm
I hope you understand that it’s not only about me in this world. I wish the community knows about this issue since all their FAT1000’s apparently house this very same rear hub and which signs to look for before a total failure. When the rear hub fails for the last time you are propably pedaling hard. It will make cranks spin underneath your whole body weight in a split second. Faceplanting to the asphalt is a true risk I wish everyone to avoid. This can cause death even with a helmet on.

If you don’t believe me, check this: https://youtu.be/sxKwwj0yGAY 3:05 —>

FlyingFinn   100 W

100 W
Posts: 120
Joined: Jan 03 2018 7:48pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FlyingFinn » Oct 29 2019 7:12pm

robocam wrote:
Oct 29 2019 6:56pm
I'm glad you want to warn the community that you can face-plant if the rear hub fails. I misinterpreted your post, and I apologize. I've just seen so many social media posts of people freaking out when a component on their bike fails and they take it to the world instead of trying to resolve it with the seller first.

Maybe I'll change my rear wheel before this happens. Thanks for the warning.
No problem. The shittiest thing is that when it fails you’re propably pedaling hard and standing on the pedals. I’ve face-planted once as a kid. Lost my gum above my front teeth for 5 years before it grew back. It was nice to wash your teeth first and then proceed to skullbone with toothbrush.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Oct 29 2019 7:27pm

I'll take a photo for you and post it.

Well, most companies selling bikes with the Bafang drives are using low-end Suntour and big box store-grade components. And usually, high-end components are just lighter and some are even not as strong (for example, using aluminum sprockets instead of steel). I don't really see any reason to go up unless a new feature or improvement is offered. I mean, to someone with a 55 lb bike, 25g of weight loss doesn't mean much. But honestly, I don't really care what groupset it comes with. What mattered to me was the 50T in the rear cassette. :) And I'm thinking about getting a Shimano XT shifter so that I can upshift 2 gears at a time (thankfully Shimano didn't use a different pull ratio vs Sram in their 12-speed system).

Another good thing about Sram's low-end 12-speed groupset is that it uses a standard Shimano freehub (the one you find on any bike made in the last 20 years or so). You don't need an xD-driver-compatible wheel. Yay! This also means I can use a $61 Sunrace cassette and not lose hundreds of dollars if I damage the cassette.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B079KSDJSY

But even the Levo starts out with a Sektor fork (low to mid-range). You don't get a Pike (something comparable to the Yari) until the $8250 Levo Expert. Giant uses a Suntour XCR LO-R 130mm fork in their Stance E+2. Overall I think Luna did an awesome job for their asking price. I mean, there's always something better or worse. You've gotta compare it with others in its class. But I don't think anything out there even comes close to the value of what the X-1 offers. You can't even build it yourself for this price. People are making Dengfu builds but paying over $5000.

Yes, they do sell out quickly. When I pre-ordered mine, I think they were sold out in like 2 days.
formula101 wrote:
Oct 29 2019 6:50pm

Do you mind posting a photo?...

...Be careful with Luna: some of their claims are misleading: they say they use the highest quality parts. However, they spec Eagle SX which is their lowest end 12 speed group. sx, nx, gx, xo, xx.

FYI: the X1 is sold out.
robocam wrote:
Oct 29 2019 5:45pm
I just measured my medium X-1, and it is 29" from the ground at the lowest point.

I'll ask over at the X-1 thread to see if anyone is 5'5".

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kn ... o-fs-ebike

I would consider something like a Specialized so that you can fit the motor inside the triangle. Here's the 10 lb Revel Propulsion kit.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... FBaWlqLTFn
formula101 wrote:
Oct 29 2019 4:36pm
That front triangle won't allow a standover of less than 30" even in a small. If you want standover clearance, you'll want a standard mtb with an add=on kit. That huge integrated battery and very long head tube eliminates the possibility of any standover.

formula101   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 387
Joined: Jun 05 2019 2:19am

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by formula101 » Oct 29 2019 10:16pm

Thanks, it'll be a good idea to get some idea of fit: I wish luna included this data. There is no standard measure for standover, but a simple diagram would do.

I don't know if the comparison spec to spec with specialized is fair. Specialized supports a much larger number of employees, ongoing R&D across a comprehensive line of bicycles, as well as an international network of brick and mortar dealers to handle customer service.

This is not to mention that their warranties are far superior to Luna's warranties: lifetime on the frame, 2 years on their batteries. Luna actually charges you extra for it's warranties, which is pretty laughable to me.

There's no telling where Luna is sourcing it's frames from, and there is no way luna can match Specialized's decades of full suspension frame design in both aluminum and carbon. Luna designs are brand new, with no track record of reliability.

Am I endorsing Specialized? Absolutely not. Am I in the market for a $7K+ emtb? Absolutely not. I'm simply saying that the upfront cost from an internet dealer with zero brick and mortar retail presence, markedly inferior warranty (if even offered), no track record of reliability, and no rationale for it's frame or overall design are factors that should be acknowledged when assessing a product's "value."

As an example of products which look like quality products but are not: I bought some cree magic shine knockoffs on eBay for under $10 each (light + battery pack). They made some ridiculous lumen claim and they certainly LOOKED like magic shines. 3 years later, not a single battery pack of the 5 I purchased is still functional. Two of them failed within the first year. The third broke the second year with very light handling. The last two which were hardly ever used, both failed this year. At most I got a few months of use out of each, and even then they produced closer to 200 to 300 lumens, the equivalent of the "low" setting on most quality headlights rather than their claimed thousands of lumens.

So now I have exactly zero out of five functional headlights, because every single battery pack has failed. It's true I only spent $50 but every last one failed with light use within a relatively short period of time.

To put it simply, Luna is not competing with Specialized. Comparable brands include Juiced, Biktrix, FLX and the like. Namely, against jewish, internet-based companies which source generic frames exclusively from China, competing primarily on the basis of "value" rather than building upon a legacy of decades of R&D.

User avatar
robocam   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 768
Joined: May 29 2014 8:44pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Oct 29 2019 11:09pm

I think anyone in the market for something like a Specialized or Giant ebike should and would consider the X-1 (and a Frey). I know I'd probably own a Levo if I didn't buy the X-1. In fact, just a week before I bought it, I was trying to buy a Levo. The intended purpose and audience of the bikes are the same.

True, Luna probably doesn't have the R&D that the larger companies have, however, the frames that they're using are likely based on successful designs by these large companies (the frame is a Dengfu M09 just fyi). For example, they use the FSR rear suspension design, and now that Specialized's patent is expired, anyone can use it.

The suspension is also heavily influenced by the fork and rear shock, both of which are made by Rockshox. The motor unit is also made by a relatively well-known company, Bafang. The drivetrain is made by Sram.

It's not like someone just whipped together custom-made parts in their basement and started producing their own designs. They are leaning on a great deal of past R&D by well-known companies, and it shows in actual performance.

You can think of it as charging for a warranty. I see it as a way of saving money. Luna caters to the DIY crowd. They assume we know what we're doing. It's those with less technical knowledge and those that expect an Amazon-type experience that give these companies a bad name. They destroy something and expect free shipping both ways and a full refund. Also, even if something doesn't officially come with a warranty, they will do everything within reason to help you out.

Luna Cycle is like a mom & pop store. They can help you in ways a large company never would. I've seen them send a new frame to someone that was involved in a wreck. Good luck even getting a hold of someone at a large company. I had a simple question about a Giant bike, and there was literally no way to contact them. Their webform just bounces back undeliverable.

But the X-1 comes with a warranty.

I don't think the flashlight analogy works in this scenario because the core components of the X-1 are the same as those used by the name brands. If they fail, it's not really Luna's fault. If the fork fails, it's Sram's fault. If the motor fails, it's Bafang's fault. If the tires fail, it's Maxxis' fault and etc. But Luna will still cover you.

I don't know when you discovered Luna Cycle but I came across them back in 2015 when I was looking for a way to motorize my bike. They used to just sell batteries and mid drives. Then they started making their own battery packs and selling bikes preinstalled with mid drives. Those were the ones that had optional warranties. And here they are today gaining ground. It will be interesting to see where they're headed next.

What bike models from your comparable brand list do you have in mind for those looking at the X-1?

Luna also offers 2 significant advantages over the big brands, a throttle and 2000W with a 56mph speed limit. The only possible advantage I can think of that the Levo might have is in the programming of the torque sensor. I have not tried a Levo, so I can't compare them, but I have tried a Giant Full E, and what I do know is I love the way the torque sensor feels on the X-1. I almost used it during my entire ride last time. I've never done that before. I'm going to have to get that Eggrider so that I can tweak my Ultra on-the-fly.
formula101 wrote:
Oct 29 2019 10:16pm
Thanks, it'll be a good idea to get some idea of fit: I wish luna included this data. There is standard measure for standover, but a simple diagram would do.

I don't know if the comparison spec to spec with specialized is fair. Specialized supports a much larger number of employees, ongoing R&D across a comprehensive line of bicycles, as well as an international network of brick and mortar dealers to handle customer service.

This is not to mention that their warranties are far superior to Luna's warranties: lifetime on the frame, 2 years on their batteries. Luna actually charges you extra for it's warranties, which is pretty laughable to me.

There's no telling where Luna is sourcing it's frames from, and there is no way luna can match Specialized's decades of full suspension frame design in both aluminum and carbon. Luna designs are brand new, with no track record of reliability.

Am I endorsing Specialized? Absolutely not. Am I in the market for a $7K+ emtb? Absolutely not. I'm simply saying that the upfront cost from an internet dealer with zero brick and mortar retail presence, markedly inferior warranty (if even offered), no track record of reliability, and no rationale for it's frame or overall design are factors that should be acknowledged when assessing a product's "value."

As an example of products which look like quality products but are not: I bought some cree magic shine knockoffs on eBay for under $10 each (light + battery pack). They made some ridiculous lumen claim and they certainly LOOKED like magic shines. 3 years later, not a single battery pack of the 5 I purchased is still functional. Two of them failed within the first year. The third broke the second year with very light handling. The last two which were hardly ever used, both failed this year. At most I got a few months of use out of each, and even then they produced closer to 200 to 300 lumens, the equivalent of the "low" setting on most quality headlights rather than their claimed thousands of lumens.

So now I have exactly zero out of five functional headlights, because every single battery pack has failed. It's true I only spent $50 but every last one failed with light use within a relatively short period of time.

To put it simply, Luna is not competing with Specialized. Comparable brands include Juiced, Biktrix, FLX and the like. Newish, internet-based companies which source generic frames exclusively from China, competing primarily on the basis of "value" rather than building upon a legacy of decades of R&D.

formula101   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 387
Joined: Jun 05 2019 2:19am

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by formula101 » Oct 29 2019 11:45pm

Most of the "spend" on the X1 comes from it's relatively nice fork and shock. Add to that a generic, knockoff Chinese frame and bottom of the barrel SRAM drivetrain, with a super low end warranty and voila! $4K price point met!

Eagle SX is nothing more than a price point budget group: the cheapest of the cheap. SRAM won't even sell it to consumers. Bike companies get a big pricing break for spec-ing RockShox with SRAM drivetrains, which has effectively driven Shimano out of the market. Not a tragedy really, as Shimano's MTB drivetrains have been strangely mediocre for many years until this year's introduction of SLX, XT and XTR 12 speed groups.

I don't like dengfu as a company. Like many, probably most, ALL? Chinese companies, they do nothing but copycat American and European designs. In an ideal world, Specialized and every other US and European designer would sue the shit out of companies like dengfu and put them out of business ASAP for copyright infringement, intellectual property theft and for generally being dishonest assholes.

Yeah, they are flat out thieves. There's no way anyone in the western world could get away with what these so-called "companies" are doing which is stealing ideas and designs wholesale. Can they produce a reliable product? Most likely.

But the frame is the most important aspect of bike design. Do I trust their layup and manufacturing processes or raw materials for their carbon frames? I don't know. They. haven't been around as long as specialized or the other established brands.

The reality is, the X1's pricing , as outrageously low as it seems, is achieved by exactly the means you would expect: theft. I'm just not cool with that.

But aside from that, one should note that the comparably priced Frey or biktrix bikes (the same bike really), offer the Bafang Ultra vs the M600 on the X1. The m600 is capped at 28 mph on the flx models. The ultra is capable of 34+ mph, almost as large of a difference as class 1 vs class 3.

Basically, all we're doing by supporting these internet get rich quick companies is helping China become wealthy and increasing our already enormous trade deficit with China. It's too bad we're destroying our own economy with the toys we're buying.

FREYebikes   100 W

100 W
Posts: 172
Joined: Dec 20 2017 11:52pm

Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by FREYebikes » Oct 30 2019 1:21am

Hi,

If there is any problem you met, please contact us firstly for us to learn it and then we can support to solve for you.
Otherwise,we don't know the situation.
FlyingFinn wrote:
Oct 29 2019 6:12pm
robocam wrote:
Oct 29 2019 5:56pm
Why $130? Why didn't you just contact Frey first to see what they would say, or did you do that? But I do agree it seems they should pick a different rear hub though mine hasn't failed yet. I came across someone on Facebook selling a set of front and rear wheels with practically brand new tires from a 2019 Giant for $125, so I couldn't resist. The rims and tires are tubeless compatible too. They'll be my backup. You could have also gotten a new wheel off eBay. Can't imagine it costing more than $200.

For the non-fat version, if you want to try 29" wheels, you can get an entire DT Swiss wheelset for $250 shipped! Unfortunately it doesn't have a Shimano compatible hub though.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254304061175
I thought it would be the value of the broken hub. I will contact Frey tomorrow when I get the pictures from the repair shop.

Firstly there is no eBay here (there is but no private vendors will ship here, only companies).
Secondly a $250 wheelset is possible for common axle lengths where there is offering. Try to find a fatbike wheelset with mishmash 150x15 and 190x12 for $250 when the tires are $170, hubs $270, brake discs $50 and spokes $100 new. You have no idea how expensive fatbike parts are. Quality or manufacturing expenses aren’t significantly higher. There is just way less competition which raises prices. Especially in Europe where most parts arrive via US. Fatbiking is a very American invention so the offering is slimmer in Europe though we have alot of fatbikers as well.

Post Reply