New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 18 2018 11:19am

pawepie wrote:
May 17 2018 9:16pm
I wired up to the controller using and STLinkV2 clone, and with pinouts according casainho's development guide:https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... tools.html

(I think if I get a speedsensor cable (from PSWpower), I could splice it without having to remove the controller)

I got the rest of the information from this german site: (instruction on how to change the voltage...still have to figure out which are the amperage values)

https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index ... atz.50939/

Sorry I took a while to reply - I've had issues with my computer and have been away for a bit.

Seems like there is further speculation early on in this thread too:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1239772#p1239772

If I have some time on the weekend, I will see if I can come up with anything else. Currently don't have a 52v battery as I'm re-spot welding a pre-made one, but also need to wait on some parts ;p
Thank you very much for your response. I will have to study all that and see if I am up to making my own custom usb to motor wire. I would like to be able to use full power 52v batteries, and also be able to use a couple of 6s batteries wired together in a series. I am not sure what battery we will be getting after we move to Europe but I would like to carry 2 6s 4ah batteries with me so we have at least some power until a larger batter can be purchased. :)


If anyone has an extra usb to motor controller wire with plugs and wants to trade for a new set of brake handles let me know! :wink:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bigwheel » May 18 2018 12:46pm

You may also have the option of taking a few mm's off one side of the bb with a grinder. I know... :)
The bb shell wasn’t the issue on my bike, it was the chainstay which ended up conforming to the housing while tightening the system in place.
DDB96941-C75C-45A0-A153-C15F4550F65D.jpeg
DDB96941-C75C-45A0-A153-C15F4550F65D.jpeg (123.44 KiB) Viewed 1943 times
As it sits the chain ring barely clears the lower cover and so it is as good as it gets for this bike and no room for improvement.

In this pic you can kind of see what I did to mount the new ring via the method I described earlier.
E5E535CD-9BDA-4A64-B2E1-A4DF1ED96DB0.jpeg
E5E535CD-9BDA-4A64-B2E1-A4DF1ED96DB0.jpeg (130.62 KiB) Viewed 1943 times
[moderator edit to fix pic link]

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 18 2018 1:13pm

Oh yes I see your problem :( No way to move that motor closer short of grinding off some of the motor housing, and even that may only yield a small amount. Maybe a custom cassette like a 6 speed moved all the way out away from the hub?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 18 2018 1:41pm

Finally!! I was able to disassembly the TSDZ2 motor controller original firmware.

The firmware is small, it should be possible for us (if we join our energies) to identify the code were battery voltage is configure in EEPROM, other codes, which codes the controller accepts sent by the LCD - can it accept configuration for current?? etc:

Original firmware disassembled file: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... rmware.asm

More info here: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... enOCD.html
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

Bigwheel   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bigwheel » May 18 2018 5:26pm

John and Cecil wrote:
May 18 2018 1:13pm
Oh yes I see your problem :( No way to move that motor closer short of grinding off some of the motor housing, and even that may only yield a small amount. Maybe a custom cassette like a 6 speed moved all the way out away from the hub?
There is no problem as I said it works just fine as it is. My benchmark for proper chainline is good alignment in the middle cog of the cassette relative to the chainring and it is close enough and even better than this pic shows
1392ED94-1E71-4D92-8E50-DE72CEE13EE5.png
1392ED94-1E71-4D92-8E50-DE72CEE13EE5.png (359.73 KiB) Viewed 1909 times

I like and use all 10 speeds to keep it “on the pipe” as we used to say back in the 125MX days.

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 18 2018 6:27pm

Sorry I must have confused you with someone else, I thought someone said they were lining up on the 11t cog. I am overworked today!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by emr » May 19 2018 1:09am

Tested the capability of my 52v 14Ah (14s4p) battery today with the 52v 750w 'recycles-ebike' TSDZ2...

First segment of the battery gauge went at 40km, second at 52km, 3rd at 62km, 4th at 70km, 5th at 75km and 6th flashing at 78km. Just a wee bit of assistance at that stage so I rode another 2km and finished ride.

The assistance didn't seem to deteriorate much at all until approximately the 65km mark, then gradual, but not major reduction until 75km, where it become more noticeable until 80km where all the 'get and go' had got up and gone.

Rode mostly in 'Tour' and 'Speed' mode, with 'Turbo' only when on flat and open sections. Also did a few km around the velodrome with throttle only, at app 37 to 40kph. During the 80km, I was mostly only putting in about 60 to 80watts of human power, except a few hills where it was more like 160watts. Terrain was mostly flattish with a few small rises.

Average speed of 29kph for the 80km (due to numerous slow intersections), but generally cruising at mid 30's to 40 (kph).

Am pleased with the results, as that provides a very usable range.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » May 19 2018 7:44am

Don't over think the chain line too much, the modern chains don't seem to worry to much about the misalignment. Do consider though the new Sunrace 8 speed 11 - 42, with the motor you can have wider gaps in the ratios and on a 42T front with 42T rear on a 27.5 + tyre I can climb anything that I wish to tackle and yet have reasonable top end range.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AWD » May 19 2018 9:07am

Waynemarlow wrote:
May 19 2018 7:44am
Don't over think the chain line too much, the modern chains don't seem to worry to much about the misalignment.
I don't think it is a matter of over thinking, but logical thinking, to try and achieve the best chainline possible in order to get the most life out of your chain. Drivetrain maintenance, and expense, is a constant feature of derailleur based systems and if upfront you can do something to aid in either dept. with a one time setup may be worth it. YMMV of course.

Mid drives are coming to be known as notoriously hard on the driveline in general but the chain is the key component that links it all together. The extra torque of the assist using bicycle rated chains is not something that the engineers that designed them accounted for. Sideloading of the chain while under torque is the #1 reason that chains "wear out" although there are other elements at play like ring and cog wear etc.. So in answer to this the chain companies are coming out with eBike rated chains. The cost of entry is however pretty high I find. Even regular decent chains have gotten to be $50 which more that twice what they used to be.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wpenner » May 19 2018 9:36am

emr wrote:
May 19 2018 1:09am
Tested the capability of my 52v 14Ah (14s4p) battery today with the 52v 750w 'recycles-ebike' TSDZ2...

First segment of the battery gauge went at 40km, second at 52km, 3rd at 62km, 4th at 70km, 5th at 75km and 6th flashing at 78km. Just a wee bit of assistance at that stage so I rode another 2km and finished ride.

The assistance didn't seem to deteriorate much at all until approximately the 65km mark, then gradual, but not major reduction until 75km, where it become more noticeable until 80km where all the 'get and go' had got up and gone.

Rode mostly in 'Tour' and 'Speed' mode, with 'Turbo' only when on flat and open sections. Also did a few km around the velodrome with throttle only, at app 37 to 40kph. During the 80km, I was mostly only putting in about 60 to 80watts of human power, except a few hills where it was more like 160watts. Terrain was mostly flattish with a few small rises.

Average speed of 29kph for the 80km (due to numerous slow intersections), but generally cruising at mid 30's to 40 (kph).

Am pleased with the results, as that provides a very usable range.
Looks like the 14ah is really overkill waste of weight for this motor for most people. Too bad most venders are not selling a 6ah bottle battery.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wpenner » May 19 2018 9:43am

wpenner wrote:
May 19 2018 9:38am
wpenner wrote:
May 19 2018 9:36am
emr wrote:
May 19 2018 1:09am
Tested the capability of my 52v 14Ah (14s4p) battery today with the 52v 750w 'recycles-ebike' TSDZ2...

First segment of the battery gauge went at 40km, second at 52km, 3rd at 62km, 4th at 70km, 5th at 75km and 6th flashing at 78km. Just a wee bit of assistance at that stage so I rode another 2km and finished ride.

The assistance didn't seem to deteriorate much at all until approximately the 65km mark, then gradual, but not major reduction until 75km, where it become more noticeable until 80km where all the 'get and go' had got up and gone.

Rode mostly in 'Tour' and 'Speed' mode, with 'Turbo' only when on flat and open sections. Also did a few km around the velodrome with throttle only, at app 37 to 40kph. During the 80km, I was mostly only putting in about 60 to 80watts of human power, except a few hills where it was more like 160watts. Terrain was mostly flattish with a few small rises.

Average speed of 29kph for the 80km (due to numerous slow intersections), but generally cruising at mid 30's to 40 (kph).

Am pleased with the results, as that provides a very usable range.
Looks like the 52v 14ah is really overkill waste of weight for this motor for most people. Too bad most venders are not selling a 6ah bottle battery. Maybe the Luna mini is the way to go.

Waynemarlow   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » May 19 2018 1:17pm

I run a 6.6A 48V battery and running on off road and in the lower two modes easily get over 2 hours of use.

hobbyvac   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hobbyvac » May 19 2018 8:35pm

I think you start to work the cells too hard on a 2P 6AH pack as far as amperage. Higher AH packs run in the comfort zone with good longevity if that matters to you. I know the battery life is relative to how hard you work them. I have a 5P 17.4AH pack which lasts me for 4 good rides or more. Im tempted to split it into a 3P and a 2P but again I think the 2P pack will get abused sometimes.

I think a 3P 9-10AH pack is the sweet spot for long life low weight and good range. One downside is that there are no good battery cases for smaller cell counts

I may build a super light 10S2P 10AH LIPO pack because they can handle way more amps.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by echew » May 19 2018 9:01pm

Hi everyone,

Quick question that I hope someone is able to help me with.

I live in NZ and it's a PITA to get things shipped here (and when you can you have to pay quite a bit import duty).

I've managed to find a decent TSDZ2 kit (48V 500W motor + 48V 14 Ah battery) already in the country for around NZD $1500 which seems fair to me and was about to order it.

The only thing holding me back is the fact that it doesn't come with a throttle.

The kit comes with the XH-18 controller.

My question is this - if, later, I wanted to add a throttle is it as simple as buying the VLCD5 controller plus a throttle cable?

Or is there something fundamental I'm missing?

Cheers for any help,

wgtnpete   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wgtnpete » May 19 2018 9:16pm

echew wrote:
May 19 2018 9:01pm
Hi everyone,

Quick question that I hope someone is able to help me with.

I live in NZ and it's a PITA to get things shipped here (and when you can you have to pay quite a bit import duty).

I've managed to find a decent TSDZ2 kit (48V 500W motor + 48V 14 Ah battery) already in the country for around NZD $1500 which seems fair to me and was about to order it.

The only thing holding me back is the fact that it doesn't come with a throttle.

The kit comes with the XH-18 controller.

My question is this - if, later, I wanted to add a throttle is it as simple as buying the VLCD5 controller plus a throttle cable?

Or is there something fundamental I'm missing?

Cheers for any help,
Hi. I am also in NZ and have been running a TSDZ2 since October on my commuter. From my understanding, the connector coming off the motor controller is different for units with throttle, 8 pin instead of 6 pin, so you would also need to replace the controller, in addition to getting a vlcd5, throttle and brakes.

I got my unit from pswpower with a battery off aliexpress. Took a few weeks to come but no issues with NZ customs.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by echew » May 19 2018 9:19pm

Ah, really, that's interesting. Thanks for the reply and hi to a fellow kiwi!

Which model did you go for in the end? Do you find it's enough for your commuting? I'm in Christchurch which is pretty flat but would probably be looking at needing at least a 40km range.

I wonder how to find out which motor controller I would need for a throttle...

Edit: Aha, I guess this would be the sucker: http://recycles-ebike.com/tsdz-accessor ... motor.html

So the list to add a throttle would be:

- A new 8-pin controller (NZD $50)
- The VLCD5 display (NZD $60)
- Throttle cable (NZD $30)
- Brake cable (NZD $30)

Hmm.... maybe I should just get the right kit in the first place!

wgtnpete   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wgtnpete » May 19 2018 9:44pm

echew wrote:
May 19 2018 9:19pm
Ah, really, that's interesting. Thanks for the reply and hi to a fellow kiwi!

Which model did you go for in the end? Do you find it's enough for your commuting? I'm in Christchurch which is pretty flat but would probably be looking at needing at least a 40km range.

I wonder how to find out which motor controller I would need for a throttle...

Edit: Aha, I guess this would be the sucker: http://recycles-ebike.com/tsdz-accessor ... motor.html

So the list to add a throttle would be:

- A new 8-pin controller (NZD $50)
- The VLCD5 display (NZD $60)
- Throttle cable (NZD $30)
- Brake cable (NZD $30)

Hmm.... maybe I should just get the right kit in the first place!
I have a 48v 500w model with vlcd5 but without the throttle and a 12.4ah battery. My commute is about 19km each way, flat on the way in, but up a steep hill for the last few kms on the home stretch. I can do the round trip on one charge, but it does start to sag a little at the end. I find the motor pretty responsive and have not missed having a throttle.

I tend to use the third level of assist 'Speed' as I have found that it overheats if you run it in 'Turbo' for too long and then it just shuts off. I cruise along in the mid to high 30s mostly, sometimes cracking 40 if the wind is on my side. I am 120kg though, so do get passed by smaller people on commerical ebikes and bafang conversions.

I have done minor upgrades, such as a KMC ebike chain (as my old one snapped early on), lekkie buzz bar cranks (as the stock ones kept coming loose even with loctite) and the offset chainring from Futurebike in Italy.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 19 2018 9:46pm

You can add throttle just by conecting the missing wire to the controller. I just did that and it works.

So, the thing is that the version without throttle, just misses the cable from the motor controller to the throttle.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » May 19 2018 11:19pm

casainho wrote:
May 19 2018 9:46pm
You can add throttle just by conecting the missing wire to the controller. I just did that and it works.

So, the thing is that the version without throttle, just misses the cable from the motor controller to the throttle.
Pictures!!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » May 19 2018 11:36pm

tomjasz wrote:
May 19 2018 11:19pm
casainho wrote:
May 19 2018 9:46pm
You can add throttle just by conecting the missing wire to the controller. I just did that and it works.

So, the thing is that the version without throttle, just misses the cable from the motor controller to the throttle.
Pictures!!
That is my throttle connector, with the 3 pins: VCC 5V, GND and throttle signal.
Please note that board is dead now and so I removed from the metal case to analyze it, etc.

Image

Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by echew » May 20 2018 5:09am

Ended up ordering a TSDZ2 kit that comes with a throttle from recycles-ebike.com

I think just fitting the thing will be enough of a challenge for my first e-bike conversion :)

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 20 2018 7:43am

echew wrote:
May 20 2018 5:09am
Ended up ordering a TSDZ2 kit that comes with a throttle from recycles-ebike.com

I think just fitting the thing will be enough of a challenge for my first e-bike conversion :)
It was actually pretty easy to install, although it was a bit time consuming to run the wires. The biggest problem I had was removing the crank arms, the tool I bought ended up just removing the threads inside the crank on one side. Luckily I had a gear puller lying around and I was able to get it off with that. The bb cartridge came out fairly easily with the tool, then the motor just slides right in and bolts up in a few minutes. :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by wpenner » May 20 2018 9:57am

Is there Any reason I can’t use a bbs02 gear change sensor and wire it into one of my ebrake lines? Or would it not cut out for long enough duration?

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John and Cecil   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by John and Cecil » May 20 2018 10:11am

wpenner wrote:
May 20 2018 9:57am
Is there Any reason I can’t use a bbs02 gear change sensor and wire it into one of my ebrake lines? Or would it not cut out for long enough duration?
The brake cutoffs are just switches, the gear change device is a sensor. I do not believe that you can just hard wire it to use as a switch. I think casainho might be trying to get the gear sensor to work in the future, but it won't hook up to the brake switch connectors.

I am liking using the throttle for shifting though, it takes a little getting used to but you can shift pretty quickly once you master it.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Timelord » May 20 2018 11:05am

gggplaya wrote:
May 01 2018 4:24pm
Nuvinci has already shown plans to integrate their cvt into a mid drive motor.
I wouldn't hold my breath for that. I doubt Fallbrook is going to be much different or do much better if and when they emerge from bankruptcy.
Waynemarlow wrote:
May 12 2018 6:36am
...Bafung...
Are you always misspelling this for a reason? I trust it's not intentional. It's either Bafang or, if you want to use their original name, 8fun. But not Bafung.
http://www.bafang-e.com/en.html

If you want your comments about that brand to show up in the site search, you should spell it right.

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