Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Tony01   100 W

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Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by Tony01 » Nov 06 2017 10:58pm

Hello, I'm a gas motorized biker looking to go electric. Can you guys recommend me some components? The bike side of it is handled, strong frame, steel 50mm wide 26" rims, 10g spokes, etc. been reading a lot and just getting more confused.

Desired:
Speed: 45-50mph continuous, 55-60 bursts
Range: 15mi minimum @45mph
Budget: yes, cheaper the better
Load: rider 170, bike frame and wheels ~60
Terrain: roads. mostly flat, one small steep hill, would like to take it in the mountains occasionally, but if I can't it's ok too, but I can also fab up a 2-speed for it if mid drive
Special features: on board fast charger 110v. Need to be able to plug in anywhere
Motor style: hub or not, prefer non hub as bike is already built with moped hub in rear, but idc
Bike frame: done/can modify
Wheels: done/can build

My current bicycle is a 212cc which has around 13000 miles on it of mostly going very fast, in fact I have one speeding ticket on it for 45+ in a 35 zone. I've beat it to hell when it was on a Schwinn frame, and recently hardtailed a Yamaha '69 dortbike as my new frame because regular bicycles are too weak for the rigors of speed and vibration.

I'm looking for the cheapest possible setup. The bike already has a jackshaft setup with a reduction of 7:1, however with some sprockets I can change that to 15:1 if I wanted to. So I am open to a motor that I can fit in place of the current engine. Fabricating a mount is no problem/on me.

Hub motors are OK too. Regen braking would be nice, disc would be nice but I don't care much for rear brakes. The 4-piston hyd with 200mm rotor is enough on the front.

Old bike in signature link. New frame has WAY more room. Thanks!
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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by JDMopar » Nov 06 2017 11:35pm

Damn dude. I've got no advice to give but that's hardcore.

Tony01   100 W

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by Tony01 » Nov 07 2017 1:22am

Thank you!

Here's how it sits now, needs lights put back on but I been busy riding it!
https://flic.kr/p/GiY9y8


Btw hub motor recommendations are ok, I would not mind building a new bike with aluminum rims. This one is extremely heavy. The steel rims were cheap at $14ea, and the 7/8" .100" wall tubing also cheap at 1.05/ft, but there's 10ft of it in just the rear end.

I have had the zero 50hp motor in my hands and it is way too big and heavy. Something about half the power would be perfect.
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rumme   100 kW

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by rumme » Nov 07 2017 11:05am

You want 60 mph , on 26" rim, and no rear brakes ?

I hope you have good health insurance.

Id suggest you spend more time reading about ebikes and then understand your requests are not only a bit dangerous, but unlikely to be achieved at a low price point.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by markz » Nov 07 2017 3:03pm

Bicycles are not meant to go that fast. Motorcycle frame with pedals on it = pedals for display purposes only ;)
Mid Drive Motor is meant for hilly terrain, and they are noisy, but you dont care about noise obviously.


Motor - A 3T MXUS 5000W (50H I think it is) rear hub motor, or one of the 3T QS273 50H or 55H motors.

Controller - 24fet trap wave, Greentime, Kelly, Adaptto, Lyen.com, ebay hksunwin

Battery - ru.nkon.nl website, buy some 3.0Ah 10A Lithium Ion cans, and a powerful 60W soldering iron. 15 miles you stated so can assume one way, if so 30 miles, plus a bit of lee-way, make it 40 miles, which is 64km. Averaging 15Wh/km so 72V needing 1000Wh, 14Ah is required. Totally dependant on your weight, and any cargo you are carrying and if there are any hills on the route. So lets just up it to 18Ah and call it a day. You will need 20S by 6P, totalling 120cans, plus a few spares. Costing $3.25cdn per can, is say $400cdn, which is $300usd. Buy a reputable pack from ebikes.ca or luna, or Ping is going to be double to triple.

110V Charger for guerilla charging - 72V Satiator from ebikes.ca is the only option to go for. I believe its 5A and can go from 48-84V I believe, just check it out on the website.


Torque Arms - You can custom make them out of steel

Throttle - Buy the Magurua or however its spelled.

Display - You absolutely need the newest Cycle Analyst from ebikes.ca

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited - For faster charging, buy the Meanwell RSP, Doctorbass on this website mentions how durable it is. They are expensive but if you want to charge 18Ah in decent coffee drinking time, you are gunna need 72V and 10A charge to get it done in under 2 hrs, 15A will take just over an hour. I use 16A on a 19Ah pack using Meanwell HRP, at any 110V outlet, grocery stores, gas stations, malls, coffee houses, strip clubs :oops: You can add MW's in series and the HRP and RSP require NO MODS!

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by wturber » Nov 07 2017 4:05pm

15 Wh/km? At 45+ mph? I don't think so. Probably double that or more. I'd guess 50Wh/mi or a bit more ... giving some grace for using a low profile bike.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

markz   100 GW

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by markz » Nov 07 2017 4:06pm

yup you are right there, was thinking of my cruising speeds.

43Wh/km says http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.ht ... t=C40&hp=0 states 65kph. I cant get that sim to go 100kph (60mph).

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wturber   10 MW

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by wturber » Nov 07 2017 4:14pm

markz wrote:yup you are right there, was thinking of my cruising speeds.

43Wh/km says http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.ht ... t=C40&hp=0 states 65kph. I cant get that sim to go 100kph (60mph).
Given how low his bike is, I re-calced using semi-recumbant and got 49mph with your setting and 57.4 Wh/mi. I think he needs about 40Ah of battery at 72V. Around 3000 Wh.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

markz   100 GW

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by markz » Nov 07 2017 8:18pm

wturber wrote:
markz wrote:yup you are right there, was thinking of my cruising speeds.

43Wh/km says http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.ht ... t=C40&hp=0 states 65kph. I cant get that sim to go 100kph (60mph).
Given how low his bike is, I re-calced using semi-recumbant and got 49mph with your setting and 57.4 Wh/mi. I think he needs about 40Ah of battery at 72V. Around 3000 Wh.
Yes, I was thinking 3250Wh, if not 4kwh. Thats a huge huge battery pack. Look into 2T motors!

or - 3T direct drive off the shelf using your jack shaft to get faster gearing. Fabricate your direct drive motor where your gasser motor is, throw on a 11T to a 52T-11T #35 to a 72+T #35. So your 52T is on the same shaft as the 11T #35. Just a random thought I had.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by markz » Nov 07 2017 8:39pm

Aint nuffin cheap about 55mph!!
40Ah gets you 54km 34mi
100V is like 24S times 14P is 336 - 3.0Ah 18650 cans!
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Tony01   100 W

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by Tony01 » Nov 07 2017 10:58pm

Thank you markz and wturber for the very helpful comments. Eye opening! My budget is wide open if the cost is warranted, but I'd like to keep it close to or under $1200 for e-components.

It seems the 50-60 range is very expensive and very, very heavy. What are the limitations of running, say, a MXUS 3t 3kw motor? Could it cruise at 40 and still top out at 50? Would the bike be lighter by a significant amount? cheaper by much?

ie:
nkon - Samsung INR18650-35E 3450mAh - 10A - 2.75eu ~ 20s5p 100cells $350 shipped
Aliexpress unbranded MXUS 3kw - $250 shipped

thank you.
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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by rumme » Nov 07 2017 11:45pm

beginner01 wrote:Thank you markz and wturber for the very helpful comments. Eye opening! My budget is wide open if the cost is warranted, but I'd like to keep it close to or under $1200 for e-components.

It seems the 50-60 range is very expensive and very, very heavy. What are the limitations of running, say, a MXUS 3t 3kw motor? Could it cruise at 40 and still top out at 50? Would the bike be lighter by a significant amount? cheaper by much?

ie:
nkon - Samsung INR18650-35E 3450mAh - 10A - 2.75eu ~ 20s5p 100cells $350 shipped
Aliexpress unbranded MXUS 3kw - $250 shipped

thank you.
If you are willing to use ferro fluid and/or heat sinks, you can run the lighter weight 3k motor, at 5k or more , this achieving 40+ mph pretty easily. I still think that mounting such a setup in a 26" bike rim, is a mistake. You may get the top speed you want on flat roads...but torque will suffer.

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by Tony01 » Nov 08 2017 12:56am

rumme wrote:If you are willing to use ferro fluid and/or heat sinks, you can run the lighter weight 3k motor, at 5k or more , this achieving 40+ mph pretty easily. I still think that mounting such a setup in a 26" bike rim, is a mistake. You may get the top speed you want on flat roads...but torque will suffer.
Thank you, I will look into the fluid and heat sinks. I can even fab up some air scoops like vintage race bikes had for their drum brakes... :mrgreen:

26" bicycle wheels are the way to go for something with pedals on it. The only drawback is rear tires wear within 600mi. But they can be built extremely light and strong. My wheels when they were still lightweight, were 7lb total (both), and lasted over 10000mi going 50+. I never even trued the front.
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rumme   100 kW

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by rumme » Nov 08 2017 9:01am

beginner01 wrote:
rumme wrote:If you are willing to use ferro fluid and/or heat sinks, you can run the lighter weight 3k motor, at 5k or more , this achieving 40+ mph pretty easily. I still think that mounting such a setup in a 26" bike rim, is a mistake. You may get the top speed you want on flat roads...but torque will suffer.

26" bicycle wheels are the way to go for something with pedals on it. The only drawback is rear tires wear within 600mi. quote]

But you are doing more then just having 26" wheels on your bicycle now. You are adding a heavy motor to it , heavy battery and now pushing those wheels to do speeds they were never intended for. You also mentioned you did not want back brakes for such a setup. You want to do all this and reach 50-60 mph...probably not a good idea , but we all get to learn our own way. Good luck.

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by miro13car » Nov 08 2017 10:01am

stopping power must be proportional to speed.
Regular bicycle brakes including disc brakes simply are not design to stop you safely from 45mph , leave alone 55mph which is crazy fast.
I echo previous poster , you better have good insurance.

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by rumme » Nov 08 2017 11:19am

miro13car wrote:stopping power must be proportional to speed.
Regular bicycle brakes including disc brakes simply are not design to stop you safely from 45mph , leave alone 55mph which is crazy fast.
I echo previous poster , you better have good insurance.
Humans fall into 1 of 3 main categories :

1. they learn the easy way

2. they learn the hard way

3. they never learn

Anyone that says they want to do 60 mph , on a 26" bicycle wheel, and NOT have rear brakes , better learn the easy way , and take our advice, NOT, to do it. In fact, I think anyone that needs to do 60mph...is better off with a 250 c.c. moped or motorcycle.

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by rumme » Nov 08 2017 11:22am

ebike2.jpg
My EBIKE can do 55 mph....and Ive done it , and I have no desire to do it again , even though my ebike is made to handle it { 19" rim , hydraulic disk brakes, sturdy frame, full suspension, motorocycle rims/tires etc } .

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by wturber » Nov 08 2017 12:55pm

miro13car wrote:stopping power must be proportional to speed.
Regular bicycle brakes including disc brakes simply are not design to stop you safely from 45mph , leave alone 55mph which is crazy fast.
I echo previous poster , you better have good insurance.
One of the main issues with stopping a bike is you can't fully use the front brake without going over the handlebars. With a lower CG like on his bike, this should be mitigated somewhat. Now whether the wheels and tires are up to the task is another thing. Then there's less visibility because you are low and the expectations of your speed from motorists. All in all, I agree that this seems awfully risky.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by wturber » Nov 08 2017 2:41pm

rumme wrote:
My EBIKE can do 55 mph....and Ive done it , and I have no desire to do it again , even though my ebike is made to handle it { 19" rim , hydraulic disk brakes, sturdy frame, full suspension, motorocycle rims/tires etc } .
Sure, I regularly do 40mph on mine. But that's only for a few moments on certain downhill sections with no cross traffic. The issue isn't just speed. It is also circumstance and traffic.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by Tony01 » Nov 08 2017 5:06pm

For me, there is one major factor that separates bicycles from motorcycles. Wheels and tires. bicycle tires = bicycle, motorcycle tires = motorcycle. rumme, what you have isn't a bicycle, its an underpowered electric motorcycle. If you insist on considering it a bicycle, then it's a grossly overweight bicycle. I'm not asking my wheels and tires to do anything new. After 13000 miles of going 50+, I've learned it doesn't need to be designed with blunt over-estimation. I use a 203mm disc up front, 4-piston with heatsink pads, moped rear hub, and 2.5" tires right now testing a super cheap 3" rear tire ($10!)

I'm simply looking to replace my engine with a hub motor, and a heavy frame for a heavy battery. My frame is heavy because a bicycle frame cannot handle the vibration and torque of a large 212cc motor. If I remove the motor, I can go back to a much lighter cruiser frame bicycle without worrying about frame cracks, and only beef up the stays somewhat, because a hub motor really only stresses the rear. I am looking to keep the overall weight under 100lb, the lower the better.
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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by rumme » Nov 08 2017 6:50pm

beginner01 wrote:For me, there is one major factor that separates bicycles from motorcycles. Wheels and tires. bicycle tires = bicycle, motorcycle tires = motorcycle. .
LOL..so if someone puts motorcycle tires on a regular wal mart bicycle { but keeps the rest of the bicycle format, without adding a motor} , then you now consider that to be a motorcycle ?

Hey, have fun with your project. Give us a update on how your 60 mph bicycle on 26" rims, that doesn't have rear brakes , works out for ya.

I will look at the obituaries to see if your name is mentioned.

You asked for advice, and ignored it. It would be a waste of time and energy for anyone else on this forum to now reply. Have fun !

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by MadRhino » Nov 08 2017 8:34pm

35000 miles on bicycle wheels, riding both city and Mountain trails, hard and fast. That is one of my previous bikes, that had about 25 tires and 5 wheel rebuilt in that mileage over 3 years. Top speed 60 Mph, total weight 76 lbs, peak power 20 kw. Cromotor v2, lyen 18X4110 controller, 24s RC Lipo. Still riding as a guest bike.

Today I use different bikes for city (24) and mountain (26). My wheels are still bicycle with 14 ga spokes on both. I build with bicycle components exclusively. For performance riding some are not cheap, suspension and brakes especially.

So, I find your frame heavy. It’s gonna suck at efficiency but the fact that you are building mid drive can help. Many motor/controller combos can do fine, but not my specialty. I find hubs reliables, with lower maintenance.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by Tony01 » Nov 08 2017 10:28pm

Holy shit MadRhino, that's a lot of miles! Cromotor V2.. 6kw.. I guess qs273 is the way to go. Hub is ok for me, if anything there is the simplicity. I was just thinking mid drive, because it would be easier to build right this minute, but if I was building a new bike which I'll probably do.. hub for sure.
rumme wrote:LOL..so if someone puts motorcycle tires on a regular wal mart bicycle { but keeps the rest of the bicycle format, without adding a motor} , then you now consider that to be a motorcycle ?

Hey, have fun with your project. Give us a update on how your 60 mph bicycle on 26" rims, that doesn't have rear brakes , works out for ya.

I will look at the obituaries to see if your name is mentioned.

You asked for advice, and ignored it. It would be a waste of time and energy for anyone else on this forum to now reply. Have fun !
I never asked for advice about wheels and tires in this topic. From your first reply you've disagreed/refused to comprehend what I'm saying. Please learn to have some common sense and focus; it was less than a month ago you thought that your "72 volt battery... can output 140 phase amps and 100 continuous amps" :roll:
I don't always listen to Pantera.... but when I do, SO DO THE NEIGHBORS :D

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by rumme » Nov 08 2017 10:33pm

beginner01 wrote:Holy shit MadRhino, that's a lot of miles! Cromotor V2.. 6kw.. I guess qs273 is the way to go. Hub is ok for me, if anything there is the simplicity. I was just thinking mid drive, because it would be easier to build right this minute, but if I was building a new bike which I'll probably do.. hub for sure.
rumme wrote:LOL..so if someone puts motorcycle tires on a regular wal mart bicycle { but keeps the rest of the bicycle format, without adding a motor} , then you now consider that to be a motorcycle ?

Hey, have fun with your project. Give us a update on how your 60 mph bicycle on 26" rims, that doesn't have rear brakes , works out for ya.

I will look at the obituaries to see if your name is mentioned.

You asked for advice, and ignored it. It would be a waste of time and energy for anyone else on this forum to now reply. Have fun !
; it was less than a month ago you thought that your "72 volt battery... can output 140 phase amps and 100 continuous amps" :roll:
and it can.

hey, I want you to build the cheapest ebike you can, that can do 60 mph without rear brakes. you deserve it. ROFL..carry onwards.

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Re: Cheapest e-components for 55mph?

Post by jansevr » Nov 08 2017 11:17pm

In my opinion a mxus 3k will be under powered for what you are asking. Having used both the mxus 3k and a QS 205 v3 I can definitively say the QS is far superior. If you go with a hub and are set on no rear brake maybe regen would be a good option? I would still agree with the other comments that no rear brake is a bit crazy. Granted 99% of my time riding (on street) I use front only but that other 1% has saved me from accidents with reckless drivers -
without a doubt. Also I spend some time on single tracks so a rear brake is almost necessary there (at least to have some fun). Concerning your budget...I would expect to spend about double what you might have originally expected. Battery alone (like others have said) will need to be at least 3kwh for 30 mile range at 45-50mph continuous. Definitely a custom pack maybe 6-700 if you can build it yourself and get a good deal on cells. Motor and controller (I would recommend the QS 205v3 and sabvoton 72v 150a) will be almost 1000. Bms, charger and whatever else you need for the bike itself will bring the total to over 2k

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