Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
billvon   1 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 17 2020 10:36am

ZeroEm wrote:
Jan 17 2020 7:34am
Now, every one knows the warmer Earth gets the more active the plates will be. More earth quakes and increased volcanic activity.
Nope. No known connection there.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Ianhill » Jan 17 2020 3:23pm

Your highlighting a point that has major Implectaions on the successfulness of our system, and that's the fact corruption has not allowed all the country's with ore and oil wealth to feel the same impact.

For example US has done well with oil, claimed the petrol chemical dollar and invaded anyone that didn't play along while Africa has been cleaned out of its gold coal and diamond reserves with little to show but a few wealthy corrupt groups.

Sounds simular to US really don't it only difference one is a goverment that does as it likes and the other a free individual that acts out terrorism both have the same agenda world domination.

When your leader acts out a bombing event and publicly takes to twitter and threats to take out religious sites if there retribution and if by magic a plane gets taken out that puts Iran in the shit looks very suspicious.

Oil and the middle East been going on before Henry Kissinger and the 60's so the country that needs to make change as it's the global leader is not making any commitment but the wrong one yet a small section of it's population run around acting like they are the leaders in climate change with teslas and solar panels and major majority of that same country don't give 2 shits and let it burn baby burn so there no hope for a rat race even if some plan to make a break for it as greed and power leads to the same path always.

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Jan 17 2020 4:41pm

Cephalotus wrote:
Jan 17 2020 8:20am
See those wealthy countries in the world, which do neither export coal nor gas nor uranium.
Somehow those countries found other things to produce.
Examples ?
Cephalotus wrote:
Jan 17 2020 8:20am
...On the other Hand many countries do export raw products and fossil fuels and didn't get wealthy either. See many African countries or Venezuela as an example.
The countries may not have become wealthy, but individuals certainly did.
Classic examples of ineffective/corrupt governments.
Venezuela ? :shock: ..careful what you wish for !
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by cricketo » Jan 20 2020 2:29pm

The first industry-scale Power-to-Methane plant was realized by ETOGAS for Audi AG in Werlte, Germany. The plant with 6 MW electrical input power is using CO2 from a waste-biogas plant and intermittent renewable power to produce synthetic natural gas (SNG) which is directly fed into the local gas grid (which is operated by EWE).[34] The plant is part of the Audi e-fuels program. The produced synthetic natural gas, named Audi e-gas, enables CO2-neutral mobility with standard CNG vehicles. Currently it is available to customers of Audi's first CNG car, the Audi A3 g-tron.[35]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-to-gas

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Jan 20 2020 5:25pm

billvon wrote:
Jan 17 2020 10:36am
ZeroEm wrote:
Jan 17 2020 7:34am
Now, every one knows the warmer Earth gets the more active the plates will be. More earth quakes and increased volcanic activity.
Nope. No known connection there.
Just because you don't know it. . . .

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... net-warms/

The good news is that at least the clouds from major eruptions bring a cooling effect:

https://scied.ucar.edu/shortcontent/how ... ce-climate
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
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Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Jan 21 2020 3:30am

No, that article absolutely does not support the argument presented by ZeroEM.

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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Jan 21 2020 3:37am

Someone sent a letter to Renew magazine pondering if the warming of the atmosphere was leading to a warming of the earth's core. And that this would explain the 'increase in tectonic activity, volcanic eruptions and and tsunamis'. They must have been trolling, cause man, that's some wrong physics right there...

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Jan 21 2020 7:33am

Jonescg,..you finally saw the light and quit FB,....
...but it sounds like you have some other sites you need to dump also ! :wink:
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Jan 21 2020 7:34am

Nah, the guys at the ATA are pretty straight shooters. I reckon they included this article because it will start a barrage of letters...

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Jan 21 2020 7:54am

Thermal solar finally put out of its misery..
.....$1 billion solar plant was obsolete before it ever went online
...what caused a once high-flying startup to shut down its $5 billion Crescent Dunes solar plant in April 2019?
Obsolete Technology and Mismanagement
SolarReserve’s rescent Dunes solar plant was primarily based on Concentrated Solar Power (CSP) and Photovoltaic (PV) technologies. With solar energy witnessing new innovations, concentrated solar became unsustainable and too expensive to maintain. The steam generators at its solar plant require custom parts and at least 12 people to conduct regular maintenance and keep the plant running. The problem is further compounded with cheap solar coming from new Nevada photovoltaic solar farm and China
https://techstartups.com/2020/01/06/1-b ... nt-online/
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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Jan 21 2020 7:59am

jonescg wrote:
Jan 21 2020 7:34am
Nah, the guys at the ATA are pretty straight shooters. I reckon they included this article because it will start a barrage of letters...
Any site that doesn’t tolerate open discussion or alternative viewpoints, is not worth the time of day.
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ZeroEm   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Jan 21 2020 8:22am

by jonescg » Jan 21 2020 3:37am

Someone sent a letter to Renew magazine pondering if the warming of the atmosphere was leading to a warming of the earth's core. And that this would explain the 'increase in tectonic activity, volcanic eruptions and and tsunamis'. They must have been trolling, cause man, that's some wrong physics right there...
My comment before was pointed to the shifting weight on the plates not the warming of the core but we will not have good data for 600 yrs so the point if mute.
by Hillhater » Jan 21 2020 7:54am

Thermal solar finally put out of its misery..
The fewer moving parts the better holds true, wonder if it the same for pure EV's vs hybrid.
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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by jonescg » Jan 21 2020 8:33am

ZeroEm wrote:
Jan 21 2020 8:22am
by jonescg » Jan 21 2020 3:37am

Someone sent a letter to Renew magazine pondering if the warming of the atmosphere was leading to a warming of the earth's core. And that this would explain the 'increase in tectonic activity, volcanic eruptions and and tsunamis'. They must have been trolling, cause man, that's some wrong physics right there...
My comment before was pointed to the shifting weight on the plates not the warming of the core but we will not have good data for 600 yrs so the point if mute.
Yes I was aware of the difference, just pointing out that this particular letter-writer was unaware of how heat moves from hotter bits to cooler bits, and the Earth's core is far hotter than the surface. They probably have no idea how wrong they are, but hey as long as everyone is allowed to discuss alternative viewpoints no matter how wrong...

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TheBeastie   1 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by TheBeastie » Jan 21 2020 9:09am

Hillhater wrote:
Jan 21 2020 7:54am
Thermal solar finally put out of its misery..
...what caused a once high-flying startup to shut down its $5 billion Crescent Dunes solar plant in April 2019?

https://techstartups.com/2020/01/06/1-b ... nt-online/
I like how the article says SolarReserve had an aggressive pipeline of over 6000MW of CSP plants in the pipeline even though their already built projects were a total failure, it was all about the money.

It's all about getting government grants and billions in investor money to pay themselves to try and do something they probably secretly knew was never going to work from the beginning. The telling part is the fact they continued to try and acquire new land/sites for projects when their current ones were duds.

Then finally that article ends with this, which says it all... Suing their own partners who invested billions of money and the government who granted them money... Its all about the money!
Finally, in October 2019, SolarReserve filed suit against the LLC which owns Crescent Dunes and the U.S. Department of Energy. The lawsuit claims that DOE, which provided a loan guarantee for Crescent Dunes, is stacking the board and trying to push out its sole director,”


I was just watching some paid-professional Renewables expert do a little speech at Davos, saying that India could easy build 40% renewables and be cheaper than building coal power stations like India currently plans to...
Fact is I am sure India would most certainly do that if RE was cheaper, I am sure they would LOVE to do whats cleaner and cheaper, but the fact is it's obviously not cheaper for them, or they would simply be doing it.

Are we supposed to believe its a conspiracy where the Indian government just wants to pointlessly poison their own people and waste money?
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billvon   1 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 21 2020 11:16am

TheBeastie wrote:
Jan 21 2020 9:09am
It's all about getting government grants and billions in investor money to pay themselves to try and do something they probably secretly knew was never going to work from the beginning.
That was true of solar-PV, the space program, the US road system, airplanes and the Internet, too. In the US in the 1960's, everyone knew that "our rockets always blow up" and we were wasting billions on a failed, futile attempt to put man in space. Until it worked.
Are we supposed to believe its a conspiracy where the Indian government just wants to pointlessly poison their own people and waste money?
Nope, no conspiracy. Coal generators get over 2 billion in subsidies a year from the Indian government; that's a powerful incentive to generate power with coal.

Keep in mind that India isn't like the US or Australia where people dream about what to do in the future. In most parts of India, power is out for a good part of the day, and things like air conditioning are still luxuries. They are building EVERY form of generation as fast as they can. Even if they wanted to go 100% solar they couldn't; the world isn't producing enough panels fast enough to meet their needs.
--bill von

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Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh   100 MW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Jan 21 2020 12:48pm

billvon wrote:
Jan 21 2020 11:16am
In the US in the 1960's, everyone knew that "our rockets always blow up" and we were wasting billions on a failed, futile attempt to put man in space. Until it worked.
ahem...
you mean until the churminz showed you how.
do you notsee that?

amerkanz soo despise admitting credit to anyone else.
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billvon   1 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 21 2020 1:00pm

Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh wrote:
Jan 21 2020 12:48pm
billvon wrote:
Jan 21 2020 11:16am
In the US in the 1960's, everyone knew that "our rockets always blow up" and we were wasting billions on a failed, futile attempt to put man in space. Until it worked.
ahem...
you mean until the churminz showed you how.
Oh, even well after that. Von Braun got to the US in 1945; for the next 15 years our rockets always blew up. That's not because the US (or the Germans) were bad at spaceflight - it was because designing rockets to reach orbital velocity is really, really hard to do. It took decades of "wasted money" to make thousands of mistakes and learn from them all before we could get even a single person to orbit.

Likewise, we have been "wasting money" on solar for decades. The first US-funded PV research happened in the 1960's, mainly to support the space program. It wasn't until 1992 that the solar industry really took off here and became self-sustaining.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Hillhater » Jan 21 2020 5:21pm

billvon wrote:
Jan 21 2020 1:00pm
.... It wasn't until 1992 that the solar industry really took off here and became self-sustaining.
Its not “self sustaining” .
..it relies heavily on grants, rebates, tax concessions, preferential supply agreements, etc...just like many other public utilities
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Dauntless » Jan 21 2020 10:19pm

Punx0r wrote:
Jan 21 2020 3:30am
No, that article absolutely does not support the argument presented by ZeroEM.
It definitely refutes the statement it's meant to.
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by Punx0r » Jan 22 2020 3:44am

Pls quote the part of the article that says AGW is/will accelerate plate tectonics. kthxbye

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by boars » Jan 24 2020 1:25am

Hillhater wrote:
Jan 17 2020 4:41pm
Cephalotus wrote:
Jan 17 2020 8:20am
See those wealthy countries in the world, which do neither export coal nor gas nor uranium.
Somehow those countries found other things to produce.
Examples ?
*muses* GDP an OK measure for success?

#3 GDP country: Japan has no fossil fuel exports that I recall, at the very least very little if anything.
#4 GDP country: Germany - Export a lot of things, not much in the way of fossil fuels by the look: "Oil, natural gas and other resources are, for the most part, imported from other countries".

I'm sure there's a few more top GDP countries that aren't exporting (directly) fossil fuels.

Counter argument example would be #2 GDP: While China isn't exporting coal, they're consuming most if not all they dig up and then technically they're exporting the benefits of said coal. It keeps their industry competitive.

It's kind of hard to get a country that is 100% in the green on this one... because even if not exporting, they're still consuming what they dig up or import.
Still there's seemingly a few high GDP countries that are going pretty decently without exporting by the looks.
Just depends how pedantic you want to get :lol:

Technically though, being successful and importing fossil fuels is a pass for: "See those wealthy countries in the world, which do neither export coal nor gas nor uranium."

Because importing is not exporting :lol: essentially they've just further along the chain of turning x into profit.
Hillhater wrote:
Jan 17 2020 4:41pm
Cephalotus wrote:
Jan 17 2020 8:20am
...On the other Hand many countries do export raw products and fossil fuels and didn't get wealthy either. See many African countries or Venezuela as an example.
The countries may not have become wealthy, but individuals certainly did.
Classic examples of ineffective/corrupt governments.
Venezuela ? :shock: ..careful what you wish for !
What's wrong with Venezuela being an example of things going horribly wrong?

I get it, individuals got rich but what's the be careful what you wish for bit????

The government has most definitely got corruption issues, I'm sure people wish none of the corruption occurred?

I mean it's a beacon of prosperity, besides the corruption right:
3 million people have fled the country since 2014.
80% of households are food insecure.
Crackdowns on political opponents by putting them in prison and invalidating their ability to run.
Protesters have been shot point blank, peaceful protectors beaten, using military courts to prosecute people.
and on and on.
Miami Herald wrote:

Venezuela, already known as the most corrupt country in Latin America, added to the dubious distinction last year, entering the list of the world’s top five most corrupt nations, according to Transparency International’s 2019 report.
Great oil reserves, terrible Government.

Further fun reading if you're intested in how to take an oil rich nation and help run it into the ground: https://www.dw.com/en/how-millions-of-d ... a-47867313

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ZeroEm   100 W

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Jan 24 2020 10:21am

Lived in Oklahoma, USA for 13 yrs and remember the increase in earth quakes. The last several years it is not reported in the news anymore. They are linked to oil extraction. Not heating but shifting pressures in the North American Plate. Fluid is extracted at lower levels across the State then oil, gas is extracted. Waste fluid is then pumped back at limited sites in higher formations. This is no where near our molten core so so the activity is much closer to the surface. This is increased activity from the plate adjusting to changing pressures, no volcano's or magma. I did not see this activity listed any where so the reports are limited to what they want to measure. Welcome comments and disinformation.
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billvon   1 GW

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by billvon » Jan 24 2020 11:18pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Jan 24 2020 10:21am
Lived in Oklahoma, USA for 13 yrs and remember the increase in earth quakes. The last several years it is not reported in the news anymore. They are linked to oil extraction. Not heating but shifting pressures in the North American Plate. Fluid is extracted at lower levels across the State then oil, gas is extracted. Waste fluid is then pumped back at limited sites in higher formations. This is no where near our molten core so so the activity is much closer to the surface. This is increased activity from the plate adjusting to changing pressures, no volcano's or magma.
Definitely. Pumping anything (water, gas, oil) out - and pumping stuff in (drilling mud, water) - will increase tectonic activity in a minor way, since large areas will settle/expand as volume is shifted.

But we were talking about effects of warming on plate tectonics - and there's really not any evidence that warming, in and of itself, will increase the rate or severity of earthquakes.
--bill von

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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by ZeroEm » Jan 24 2020 11:42pm

I do agree on that point no dispute here!
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Re: Wind and Solar vs Coal, Gasoline, Nuclear

Post by amberwolf » Jan 24 2020 11:49pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Jan 24 2020 10:21am
. I did not see this activity listed any where so the reports are limited to what they want to measure.
while it doesn't show root causes, the usgs site does have nearly realtime earthquake monitoring across the us and in some cases other places around the world.
https://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/map/
i don't know what sensitivity level the site goes down to, but i expect it can show everything down to detectable limits if you choose to.

i also expect the raw seismograph data is accessible somewhere if you had a use for it.

some university websites also have geological sections that have this kind of info, though you'd probably have to contact the relevant geologists in charge of the section to get the data, it's probalby not live on teh site itself.

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