C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

General Discussion about electric vehicles.
SlowCo   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1437
Joined: Jan 05 2015 5:43pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by SlowCo » Feb 14 2020 2:57am

That trike is 8) :thumb:
Get a BBSHD (or BBS02) mid drive motor on that for electric support :D

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 14 2020 10:00am

SlowCo wrote:
Feb 14 2020 2:57am
That trike is 8) :thumb:
Get a BBSHD (or BBS02) mid drive motor on that for electric support :D
Thanks SlowCo. I'm definitely going to put power to it in the future.

I would really like to make it so there are no cables/wires going to the handlebars.

Open question

Is there such a thing as wireless throttle controls?

I can see the wonder, on peoples faces, when they wonder how does it work?
You know, the same wonder, people looking at my StreetRunner, may have.

EDIT

Researching on this subject, and I've found numerous posts, here on ES, that
(1) thinks a stupid/dangerous idea, or (2) it hasn't been invented yet,
or (3) requires way to much technical investment, at this time to be worth the effort.

You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

SlowCo   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1437
Joined: Jan 05 2015 5:43pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by SlowCo » Feb 14 2020 11:43am

Just use the PAS function. By just rotating the pedals the motor will assist at the level you chose.

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 14 2020 11:49am

SlowCo wrote:
Feb 14 2020 11:43am
Just use the PAS function. By just rotating the pedals the motor will assist at the level you chose.
OK then. I'll look into that thanks
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14714
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 14 2020 11:50am

You'd need to do something about the brakes though. Can't use a coaster brake with a BB drive. You could make it work with a front hub motor.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 14 2020 1:00pm

fechter wrote:
Feb 14 2020 11:50am
You'd need to do something about the brakes though. Can't use a coaster brake with a BB drive. You could make it work with a front hub motor.
There are two disc brakes, in the rear, suitable for a 'pedal bike', which I would want to up grade if necessary.
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 14 2020 5:05pm

Cut the first axle in half.

Reattached the pillow blocks, with a spare full length, 3/4" axle rod.
All is lined up for the moment, with the newly fabricated jackshaft, and new axle sprocket.

Waiting for my order of master links to arrive, then I can break down the chains, for a better feel for how things will fit together.
I'm thinking, that with such short, chain lengths, I won't have a need for a chain tensioner. Maybe from the motor to the jackshaft.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 14 2020 7:21pm

Another snafu !

I went break down one of the T8F chains I have, using the chain breaker that came with my order.

Well that didn't work. The chain won't seat in the breaker.
Try as I might, I can not get it to fit. So before I take a grinder to it, I've sent an email to the supplier,
with photo's, for their feedback.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 29789
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by amberwolf » Feb 14 2020 10:21pm

note that with that really small sprocket just above the large one, there is not much chain wrap, so not many teeth are engaged, on the small sprocket. that may cause excessive wear on the small sprocket, and if there's insufficient tension the chain may even slip upward on the teeth.

so if there's any way to do it, i would put the large sprocket far enough away from the small one (or vice-versa) so you get as much wrap as possible.

if you like you can try it out the way you have it first, and if there are problems you can then move stuff to make better wrap.

an idler would cause even more wrap (even without moving anything from where it is now), but it will add noise and lower efficiency a little, so unless you require one to solve another problem, you don't need one.

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 14 2020 10:52pm

amberwolf wrote:
Feb 14 2020 10:21pm
note that with that really small sprocket just above the large one, there is not much chain wrap, so not many teeth are engaged, on the small sprocket. that may cause excessive wear on the small sprocket, and if there's insufficient tension the chain may even slip upward on the teeth.

so if there's any way to do it, i would put the large sprocket far enough away from the small one (or vice-versa) so you get as much wrap as possible.

if you like you can try it out the way you have it first, and if there are problems you can then move stuff to make better wrap.

an idler would cause even more wrap (even without moving anything from where it is now), but it will add noise and lower efficiency a little, so unless you require one to solve another problem, you don't need one.
Image
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14714
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 15 2020 12:24pm

There will be some pretty serious forces on that pillow block during acceleration. I haven't used those before so not sure how strong they are. For sure you will have some flexing. The small sprockets may tend to wear out quickly or even break. If you have problems, increasing the tooth count on all the sprockets will help. Think of a motorcycle chain. The forces here will be in that ballpark as the overall weight will be similar. If there is any option to make the jack shaft shorter, it will reduce the twisting action.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 15 2020 3:16pm

fechter wrote:
Feb 15 2020 12:24pm
There will be some pretty serious forces on that pillow block during acceleration. I haven't used those before so not sure how strong they are. For sure you will have some flexing. The small sprockets may tend to wear out quickly or even break. If you have problems, increasing the tooth count on all the sprockets will help. Think of a motorcycle chain. The forces here will be in that ballpark as the overall weight will be similar. If there is any option to make the jack shaft shorter, it will reduce the twisting action.
I'm going to take amberwolfs advice, and add a riser block, to bring the jackshaft up that extra 1.5".

The two small sprockets, are as I'm sure you know, made I believe, from hardened steel.
If they break, I suppose I will go to plan B.

About the torque on the jackshaft.
If I visualize it right, the rotation and pulling force on the chain is;

the motor 9T sprocket,........ will pull from the (horizontal) bottom, thus pulling the jackshaft 24T sprocket also from the bottom
the jackshaft 11T sprocket.... will pull from the (vertical) top, thus pulling the axle 54T sprocket also from the top.(vertical)

Because of, what I believe is a nearly equal, countering force on the 3/4" axle, the strain from either direction,
should be nearly equal....I think. The pillow blocks are quite heavy duty, and they are held in place with 1/2" bolts.

The final position for motor/jackshaft/axle sprocket is yet to be determined. I can/will set both jackshaft sprockets as close to the pillow block that it will allow.This will also help to decide, if and where, any additional bracing will be needed.

I have run numerous gear ratios through the calculator, https://electricscooterparts.com/motorw ... ratio.html, and the existing numbers, get me the size and speed I'm striving for. So I think I'm limited to what size sprockets I will be able to use,
and fit in the space available. If needed, because of damage/breakage, and in lieu of larger sprockets, maybe a secondary jackshaft?

EDIT .. Additional information/thought has come my way.

Because the pillow block is 'self aligning', there runs the risk of a chain becoming slack, or breaking, thus the remaining chain would be pulled out of alignment, and loosing both chains or causing damage......not good.

So I guess I will add one or two more pillow blocks, to keep things inline.
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10806
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Hillhater » Feb 15 2020 9:19pm

Because the pillow block is 'self aligning', there runs the risk of a chain becoming slack, or breaking, thus the remaining chain would be pulled out of alignment, and loosing both chains or causing damage......not good.
So I guess I will add one or two more pillow blocks, to keep things inline.
Yes, definitely, with a single self aligning pillow block, that jackshaft will move even without a chain breaking.
Ideally the two sprockets on the jackshaft would be as close together as possible to minimise any pivoting loads, and the pillow blocks as wide apart as possible.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 15 2020 9:56pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 15 2020 9:19pm
Because the pillow block is 'self aligning', there runs the risk of a chain becoming slack, or breaking, thus the remaining chain would be pulled out of alignment, and loosing both chains or causing damage......not good.
So I guess I will add one or two more pillow blocks, to keep things inline.
Yes, definitely, with a single self aligning pillow block, that jackshaft will move even without a chain breaking.
Ideally the two sprockets on the jackshaft would be as close together as possible to minimise any pivoting loads, and the pillow blocks as wide apart as possible.
Good info people, thank you.
So there's a redesign, and re-positioning on the horizon.

I've ordered 4 more pillow blocks.Two to be used for the jackshafts and two for whenever.(cheaper that way)
I already have a +/- 5 feet of 3/4" axle rod, which I will use to make two +/- 12" jackshaft axles.

I plan on installing a central frame piece about where you see the axle split.
Then a plate on top of that, which will hold two separate (inner)pillow blocks. One for each jackshaft, left and right.
The inner and outer, axle pillow blocks, will be about 12 " apart.

But the 24T sprocket, and the 11T sprocket will have to be separated by the width of the pillow block, as you can see in previous photo's. The reason, is that the 11T sprocket is too small for the 3/4" axle. Therefore must be welded on the end, which limits it's positioning.

Luckily I have two more 11T sprockets, so not a problem, unless I mess up.
If anybody has a better idea, (than how I did the first one), how to attach that small of a sprocket to a 3/4" rod, I'm listening.
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 16 2020 4:26pm

While I wait for the pillow blocks to arrive, I'm borrowing one from the other side.

This be the latest, mock up for a new jackshaft.
The motor has been flipped around, and all gears are on the inside.

I offer up this version, for your viewing pleasure and/or opinion.
Still need to install the frame piece, in case your wondering.. :)
Image
Image

I was able to use the 4 1/2" axle from the first mock up.
Also welded some more on the small sprocket. I really didn't like it without that little bit extra.

Image
Image
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 16 2020 10:52pm

Today I worked on another version.

Not set up is not complete, so no pics, just yet.
I will tell you that I've moved one pillow block over to the other side of the frame.

However, as a teaser, the below photo shows the spacers I put in place to raise the JS up.
I originally wanted to go up 1.5 ", but that put it into the bottom of the seat.

So looking at this setup, which is up 1", it's still better than before.

Image

This is the last version. So I'm moving one pillow block, to the other side of the frame.
One on each side of the frame, at the same location....does that even make sense?
I've made matching supports for the other side of the frame.
You can just see the top of it, in the above photo.

Image
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14714
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by fechter » Feb 17 2020 1:15pm

Looks much better. You may still have rapid wear on the small sprockets but it should work for a while.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 17 2020 1:19pm

New Day..New Version

Nothing is squared up yet, as this is just a mock up. But it is tack welded in place.

After this break, (gotta have my coffee), I'll work on welding on the 11T sprocket , to a new 3/4" shaft.

Image
Image

Maybe cut some flat plate, or 1 X 2, for mounting the motor.

Will install cross braces, (yellow Line), to help stiffen the frame, where the JS is mounted.
However if I do that, I'm forced to put the brake disc's in the center.
Or use one brace in the center and leave the outer area open for brake disc's.

Image

If I use one in the center, it will have to be a 1 x 1 only (to fit through chain and miss the sprocket).
If I go with the outer area, I can use 1 x 2 or 1.5 x 1.5.
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10806
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Hillhater » Feb 17 2020 5:43pm

A suggestion fron these idle hands..
Locate the motor as far back as possible.
Move the JS back as close as possible to the motor ( shorter chain is better)
Extend the JS to a pillow block on the outside frame rail ,
just use 2 pillow blocks, the one nearest the 11 T sprocket, and the one on the outer rail.
:wink: :?:
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 17 2020 6:08pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 17 2020 5:43pm
A suggestion fron these idle hands..
Locate the motor as far back as possible.
I have maybe 3 inches of motor movement forward or back. There are frame issues, in and around where the motor mount holes are, coupled with sprocket alignment.
Move the JS back as close as possible to the motor ( shorter chain is better)
The JS, is where it is, mainly because I can use existing frame mounts. I can move the motor forward another 1/2" - 3/4".
Extend the JS to a pillow block on the outside frame rail ,
Hmmm. Isn't that what I did? :) Oh the 'outside rail'. Too late ! That certainly would have been doable.
just use 2 pillow blocks, the one nearest the 11 T sprocket, and the one on the outer rail.
Maybe I'm missing your point here. :confused:
As you can see this new version does use, just two pillow blocks...2 per side. (2 per JS)
If you mean just two period, that would be hard to do, as I have two live axles.
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10806
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Hillhater » Feb 17 2020 6:30pm

moving the motor mount and JS to the rear, creates room for the brake disc under the JS and shorten the chain length.
Using a longer JS to a bearing on the outer rail. ( close to the wheel). Reduces the bearing loading and stiffens the JS assembly to minimise movement under load.
OK if its too late, but i thought you were just in “ mock up” stage , and looking for options ?
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 17 2020 8:07pm

Hillhater wrote:
Feb 17 2020 6:30pm
moving the motor mount and JS to the rear, creates room for the brake disc under the JS and shorten the chain length.
Using a longer JS to a bearing on the outer rail. ( close to the wheel). Reduces the bearing loading and stiffens the JS assembly to minimise movement under load.
OK if its too late, but i thought you were just in “ mock up” stage , and looking for options ?
Sorry, my bad, I misspelled it,.... 'muck up'.

I see what you are saying. Well it's sorta too late, only for the first mounting brackets. I have just started working on the second set. To reposition the first set, (that I just finished)I would have to grind off, or chisel off the tack welds.
moving the motor mount and JS to the rear, creates room for the brake disc under the JS
I'm looking into having rather large disc brake rotors. Somewhere around 7-9 inch.
Those outer areas, are meant for the brakes, though that is not in concrete. I just thought the best place for the rotors, would be closer to the wheels. No reason, just a gut feeling. Placing them in the center is still an option, but would require putting in additional frame pieces to hold the caliper brackets.
If you were here, (your invited anytime), you would get a better idea of the space I have (or don't have) in, around, over, and under. We're dealing with some pretty small spaces.
Reduces the bearing loading and stiffens the JS assembly to minimize movement under load.
I will ponder this some. I do see the advantage of this.
But will redoing it, gain that much advantage to warrant, all the work of redoing it?
Moving the pillow block out to the outer rail, would also mean I would have to cut off the 11T sprocket, that I just welded onto the new shaft. I only have three, so I have to be careful how I treat them.
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10806
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Hillhater » Feb 17 2020 10:12pm

Just eyeballing here,..but it looks like there is about 4-5” vertical clearance between the JS and the axle ?
That should be enough to allow a 9” brake rotor , but even more room if you move the JS rearwards from the axle line.......but maybe my eyeballs are not as precise as i think they are :lol:
Yes i know how it feels to have to redo and remake things, but better to get it good first time , than have to go back and rework a finished job.
Anyway, there is no point in owning chisels and grinders if you dont use them !
Look at it as an opportunity ! :thumb:
Im sure it wouldnt be the first bracket you have had to reposition Either?
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

User avatar
Just_Ed   100 W

100 W
Posts: 252
Joined: Jan 16 2020 12:51pm
Location: Apple Valley, California

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Just_Ed » Feb 17 2020 11:33pm

Using the below photo as a reference.

The sprocket is 5.5" diameter.
The pillow block spacer is 1"
PB bottom to ctr of bore is 1.5"
PB Bottom to top is 2 17/32"
PB overall length is 5"

The motor as it sits in the photo, is only 1.5" +/- from the back.
I can move the motor forward maybe 3/4"- 1" max.
I have to think about leaving some space, for adjustments.(chain tightening)

Image

In this instance I really can't see any advantage to moving the pillow blocks,
what would essentially be, about two inches to the rear.
You are never to old,
----------- to set another goal,
--------------- or have a new dream.

Hillhater   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 10806
Joined: Aug 03 2010 10:33pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

Post by Hillhater » Feb 17 2020 11:52pm

Just_Ed wrote:
Feb 17 2020 11:33pm
.

The sprocket is 5.5" diameter.
The pillow block spacer is 1"
PB bottom to ctr of bore is 1.5"
Ok, but using those dims,. You could get a 9” dia brake rotor on with an extended JS
But no big deal if you are committed to the existing set up.
..( but its good to know my eyeball is still calibrated ! :wink: ) :thumb:
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

Post Reply