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battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 09 2020 12:13am
by goatman
I was talking with a guy at work about tools, im Milwaukee and hes dewalt.
he showed up with dewalt 60v circular saw 20v6ah flex volt battery. I said nice saw but its only a 2ah battery not 6ah, he wound up buying 2 more batteries.

local building supply is going out of business so everythings on sale, at the till a guy had a dewalt 60v compound miter saw, I said nice how much? $300 no battery. he was excited so I didn't say anything.

same thing with ebikes, so when people ask about my bikes, its always how fast, how far and is that the motor? so ive started explaining to people that the motor is more like a transmission and the battery is actually the motor and then they want to know about batteries. I found that's when people start to get it.

anyone else explaining it that way

side note about dewalt 60v tools like the chainsaw and mitersaw, wouldn't be hard to plug it into your ebike battery

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 09 2020 12:49am
by ZeroEm
To day a man said you were going really fast and don't even have a motor. I told him it's electric assist and pointed at the rear DD hub motor. I could see in his face that if it did not burn fuel it was no motor.

I always think of battery as gas tank electrons are the fuel, copper cables fuel line, controller fuel meter and motor well motor.

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 09 2020 4:58pm
by Hillhater
^^ yes, the “fuel” is cheap, but the “tank” is very expensive ! :lol:

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 09 2020 5:18pm
by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh
yeah the motor is the motor.
the battery is the engine since that's where the chemical conversion to energy takes place.
strictly speaking fuel cells would be comparable to an engine whereas our batteries=engine+tank.

Image

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 10 2020 6:56am
by Hillhater
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh wrote:
Jan 09 2020 5:18pm
yeah the motor is the motor.
the battery is the engine since that's where the chemical conversion to energy takes place.
strictly speaking fuel cells would be comparable to an engine whereas our batteries=engine+tank.
Not what the conventional definition says...
[An engine or motor is a machine designed to convert one form of energy into mechanical energy. ... Electric motors convert electrical energy into mechanical motion, pneumatic motors use compressed air, and clockwork motors in wind-up toys use elastic energy.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › En...
/quote]

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 10 2020 10:27am
by marty
Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh wrote:
Jan 09 2020 5:18pm
yeah the motor is the motor.
the battery is the engine since that's where the chemical conversion to energy takes place.
strictly speaking fuel cells would be comparable to an engine whereas our batteries=engine+tank.

Image
I am old. Any one here play with Cox .049?
Model rockets, Control Line Planes, RC Planes. Still got my gas RC planes in the attic.

Skip To 5:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e8mMSZmJAA&t=310s

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 10 2020 11:13am
by Ianhill
Back on topic of portable tools for site use etc ive seen a massive change over the years its all electric leaded or cordless for twice the price unless you step up to large petrol chainsaws and kurb stone cutters etc and even they are being swapped over to brushless battery and its becuase of health and safety.

To run one of these petrol tools indoors means I need a hot works permit fire prevention equipment along with ventilation and human PPE which makes it a two man job plus a risk assessment document giving a damn expensive job so these portable electric tools cant cut all day but they can enter spaces in a easier fashion for simple amendments to buildings where their fabric is complete and howling a 2 stroke away next door to a functioning industrial site etc becomes a bit challenging for the people at their desks, You have to use either 110v centre tapped or battery tools, never got why dc brushed is allowed even though it's spewing out arcs 🤯.

I see batterys place saved me loads of headaches, I just got a load of battery tools not too high a quality as they are tools end of the day that do work but in UK we got Erbauer that have a brushless 18v/36v range with 5ah batts that's cheap to build a set compared to the rest and have more than equal power to most especially bosch very comparable so I got a grinder, hammer drill, combi drill, circular saw and plan to add a few more in time can't beat the convienece of pulling the tool chest out with 4 fully charged 18v 5ah batterys I've not managed to fail to finish a job, it would need to be like unless you have a day of 10000 screw holes or circular sawing 100 metres of plywood, grinding like your in a fab shop you get the point you need a lead and theres dirt cheap tools that are cracking for taking that beating.

I got myself a dual charger system to go with my singles so I can charge back up in 50 mins from flat next is to have an invertor in the car so I can charge on break time, even charging 4 batts at once I won't break 1000w at peak when batts are flat so a small setup will do.

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 10 2020 3:28pm
by spinningmagnets
I am no engineer, nor do I play one on TV. That being said. I have worked many years in the hydraulic field, and I am familiar with hydraulic and Pneumatic motors.

This question of terminology has come up before. Why is a steam engine an "engine" and an electric motor a "motor"? Whether the power comes from a battery or a generator, if the "power" comes from a separate source, then the device that converts the power into a spinning shaft is a "motor".

A gasoline, diesel, or steam engine converts a fuel directly into a spinning shaft. The "fuel" is not consumed elsewhere.

This is an interesting shift in thinking. An electric car is expensive, but the battery being charged up is pretty cheap per mile. Electric motors are known to last hundreds of thousands of hours of run-time. When they need to be rebuilt, a rebuild often only calls for two shaft bearings to be replaced.

I have a 1991 Toyota (29 years old), It runs great. I am aware it has lasted longer than most gasoline ICE vehicles. Similar new vehicles are cheaper than a comparable electric vehicle (Nissan Leaf?), but the fuel costs more.

So...one way to look at it is that...a gasoline car is cheaper to buy, but the fuel costs are more expensive each month, and the costs are variable. An electric vehicle is more expensive, but the monthly fuel costs are cheaper.

The big undeniable difference is that a gasoline car engine and automatic transmission can be expected to last 150,000 miles (of course, some will last longer). With an electric vehicle, the motor and controller can last a lifetime, but...the battery wears out.

So, in one example, you would have to get a new engine and transmission after 200K, and in the other example, you would have to swap out the battery after the battery lasting maybe 20 years.

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 10 2020 3:57pm
by billvon
spinningmagnets wrote:
Jan 10 2020 3:28pm
A gasoline, diesel, or steam engine converts a fuel directly into a spinning shaft. The "fuel" is not consumed elsewhere.
True for gasoline or diesel engines. A steam engine is an external-combustion engine where the fuel is consumed in a boiler, and then steam transfers the energy to the motor.
The big undeniable difference is that a gasoline car engine and automatic transmission can be expected to last 150,000 miles (of course, some will last longer). With an electric vehicle, the motor and controller can last a lifetime, but...the battery wears out.
True. But so far, Tesla batteries have been lasting 300,000 to 500,000 miles, so not a big difference there.

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 10 2020 10:57pm
by Hillhater
With most modern cars, ICE or EV , the drive train will outlast many of the other key components such as suspension , upholstery and trim fitments, instrumentation and subsystem electricals, etc.
But either way, most buyers wont care, as few keep their cars long enough to see these issues.
Car sales are all about selling an “image”.. fashionable, sporty, quality, economy, speed, etc etc

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 11 2020 10:33am
by Ianhill
Suprised no ones got this as its an easy one, A motor has no moving parts while an engine does so a rocket is both depending on the type used e.g. a firework is a motor while elons rockets are engines.

I could argue a dc brushed motor is a engine as the brushes are moving parts but a brushless motor truly is magic so there's no wear face like a piston liner and ring or rotor and apex seal(brushes rubbing away at the commutator feeding the armature) it's just bearing wear on a bldc motor and even that could be eliminated with advancements in that field, so in time a motor that has 0 maintenance can be realized and achieved while a 0 maintenance engine will never ever be a reality.

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 11 2020 6:40pm
by Hillhater
Ianhill wrote:
Jan 11 2020 10:33am
Suprised no ones got this as its an easy one, A motor has no moving parts while an engine does so a rocket is both depending on the type used e.g. a firework is a motor while elons rockets are engines.

I could argue a dc brushed motor is a engine as the brushes are moving parts but a brushless motor truly is magic so there's no wear face like a piston liner and ring or rotor and apex seal(brushes rubbing away at the commutator feeding the armature) it's just bearing wear on a bldc motor and even that could be eliminated with advancements in that field, so in time a motor that has 0 maintenance can be realized and achieved while a 0 maintenance engine will never ever be a reality.
Many small electric motors have simple plain bushing for bearings ....but How do you ignor the rotation of the “rotor” as a moving part in An electric motor ?
But then again , you could maybe argue a magnetic “Linear” motor has no moving parts within itself ?
And again, moving or solid state has nothing to do with reliability or life expectancy ...in the concept the car application.

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 11 2020 7:56pm
by Ianhill
My best guess would be a moving part that has a physical interaction with another crankshaft conrods where as the motor has no wearing physical interaction I guess they forgot about brushes wear over time and bearings alike.

But there's always change over time copper work hardens magnets demag and power throughput reduces same for most systems even brushless in this regard an induction motor is the most resilient I can think of top of my head.

Seen a good read on f1 2025 makes an argument for combustion actual being cleaner than battery tech and it's possible we can have the penny and the bun high power and efficiency from 2 stroke turbo hybrid f1 cars using fuel that is from renewable grid windfarms that uses surplus to demand energy to crack water and then combine the hydrogen with carbon in the air to make a synthetic fuel that is then burnt and used in a cycle of capture and release.

The car is cleaner to make than the formula E and the energy being used to make the carbon deficit that electric is so good on making up on over time never happens as the carbon release is never any different between them both as they need their own infrastructure that is of simular cost but one has a range of 300miles at best and the other around 1000miles current tech allows it and there's factorys that can easily swap to build them.

I think this is why Honda is not comiting to electric they know something big a way of the future that is only on paper at the moment bit once revealed will give battery car manufacturer a headache as the oil and dirty aspect will be gone they will have an inferior product with no angle to push it from as it will be the dirty pig itself.

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 11 2020 10:02pm
by wturber
marty wrote:
Jan 10 2020 10:27am

I am old. Any one here play with Cox .049?
Model rockets, Control Line Planes, RC Planes. Still got my gas RC planes in the attic.
I had a Golden Bee .049 with integral fuel tank. I built a balsa wood and silk screened Aeronca with U-control. Flew it once and it crashed badly. That was the beginning and end of my Cox engine powered plane fun. Too danged much time was spend building that dang plane. :^)


Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 11 2020 10:19pm
by wturber
billvon wrote:
Jan 10 2020 3:57pm
True. But so far, Tesla batteries have been lasting 300,000 to 500,000 miles, so not a big difference there.
And may soon be lasting even longer.
https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-may-s ... ion-miles/

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 14 2020 5:06pm
by markz
Sometimes I aint in the mood to talk to anyone, and the same questions get annoying. Lots of stares, lots of glares, lots of looks, lots of turned heads. I should have been more nice to a guy at the REI/MEC store, as I was getting ready to exit and he stood there glaring, I had my tunes in, just bought a U-lock that wasnt big enough, so I was on a mission with no time for gawkers or chit chat. That guy was the REI/MEC bike mechanic taking his recent fix for a spin. So I should have respected him more so then some joe shmooo stranger.

I get lazy and I state Amp-Hour is your gas tank. Voltage is your speed.
Then instead of specifying shit, I just say it takes 45 minutes to charge, to go 25km at 30-35kph. No time to explain in detail, which I used to do, trying to educate them, waste of my time. Suprisingly people dont realize the hub is the motor, so I do a quick 20 second, small box here on my top bar is the controller, motor (point to it), battery (point to it). If I am on the commuter train, then its a little harder to get out of not talking when they are in front of you. But plenty a time, I will just bob my head and tap my finger to my headphones, like its a subtle dont talk to me. I make sure to buy white headphones, so it contrasts with the dark coat.

Lately, I havent been getting much chit-chat action, people are used to seeing me I guess.

goatman wrote:
Jan 09 2020 12:13am
same thing with ebikes, so when people ask about my bikes, its always how fast, how far and is that the motor? so ive started explaining to people that the motor is more like a transmission and the battery is actually the motor and then they want to know about batteries. I found that's when people start to get it.

anyone else explaining it that way

Re: battery is the motor?

Posted: Jan 14 2020 6:34pm
by Ianhill
If someone is polite I'm polite back if u have little time I explain but never rude for no reason.
Best one I've come across was 2 mountain walkers late 60s and ex miners, they seen me coming across the mountain on a scooter with little noise when I got close they had to ask I could see them itching, what is that and how is this even possible as they not aware of rise of the 18650 and alike.

I had a razor e300 scooter with a brushed my1020 motor running 48v and laptop cells, too them I might aswell been marty mcfly coming out of a barn, its an alien.