Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

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scrambler   100 W

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Nov 25 2019 3:29pm

The reports on it said it worked great, but we will have to see.
Hopefully demo bikes will become available at the UBCO dealers so we can give it a try :)

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Nov 25 2019 4:40pm

scrambler wrote:
Nov 25 2019 3:29pm
The reports on it said it worked great, but we will have to see.
Hopefully demo bikes will become available at the UBCO dealers so we can give it a try :)
I'll probably be heading to NZ soon so am hoping they'll have a demo bike there for a try :P
will be interesting to see how it compares to a 15kw surron...

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Merlin » Nov 25 2019 6:50pm

make pics and videos.....the only thing of trust is a real user report.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Feb 18 2020 1:40pm

Looking at the new UBCO FRX1 page, it looks like they abandoned the Pedal System, and turned it into a regular electric motorcycle...

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by bionicon » Feb 18 2020 2:15pm

So its no bicycle anymore , i understand that make it cheaper and easyer to produce but now you need a moped licence for it. Otherwise its just another only-offroad bike.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 18 2020 5:01pm

too bad... that was 90% of the appeal... bike or a mx. now its just a high powered surron with (likely) inferior suspension (rear at least), at about 2x the price too... 5k into a surron will easily close the power / range gap between the two, with room to spare.

Seriously disappointing... I was hanging out for one of these even at the higher price, but no pedals completely kills it for me, particularly as there's no road leagal version like the surron.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Feb 18 2020 6:31pm

sn0wchyld wrote:
Feb 18 2020 5:01pm
too bad... that was 90% of the appeal... bike or a mx. now its just a high powered surron with (likely) inferior suspension (rear at least), at about 2x the price too... 5k into a surron will easily close the power / range gap between the two, with room to spare.

Seriously disappointing... I was hanging out for one of these even at the higher price, but no pedals completely kills it for me, particularly as there's no road leagal version like the surron.
I could not agree more, the pedal assist with Pinion and torque sensing was their unique edge, I would have paid a premium for it... So disappointing...

And you are right a Sur Ron with an ASI BAC 4000 or 8000 will close the gap at less than half the price and you can get it with a gates belt, and they have an homologated version....

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 19 2020 12:11am

scrambler wrote:
Feb 18 2020 6:31pm
sn0wchyld wrote:
Feb 18 2020 5:01pm
too bad... that was 90% of the appeal... bike or a mx. now its just a high powered surron with (likely) inferior suspension (rear at least), at about 2x the price too... 5k into a surron will easily close the power / range gap between the two, with room to spare.

Seriously disappointing... I was hanging out for one of these even at the higher price, but no pedals completely kills it for me, particularly as there's no road leagal version like the surron.
I could not agree more, the pedal assist with Pinion and torque sensing was their unique edge, I would have paid a premium for it... So disappointing...

And you are right a Sur Ron with an ASI BAC 4000 or 8000 will close the gap at less than half the price and you can get it with a gates belt, and they have an homologated version....
even just a well thought out but otherwise standard pedelec would have been fine with me... I've got a emx already (surron), I have a hub motor commuter (stealth fighter)... a mid drive high power ebike would have rounded out my collection nicely. Looks like I'm back to building my own :(

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Feb 19 2020 1:08am

Qulbix has added a Cadence sensor Pedal assist to their QMD140 Core 15kW model and seem to have done a good integration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgRt7vQ ... e=youtu.be
But I cannot find anyone who has posted user experience with it.
With a single gear and cadence based sensor, it is no match for what the initial FRX was though....

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 19 2020 3:43am

scrambler wrote:
Feb 19 2020 1:08am
Qulbix has added a Cadence sensor Pedal assist to their QMD140 Core 15kW model and seem to have done a good integration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgRt7vQ ... e=youtu.be
But I cannot find anyone who has posted user experience with it.
With a single gear and cadence based sensor, it is no match for what the initial FRX was though....
qulbix mid drive is also ugly as sin IMO... a very poor 'tack on' mid drive design modifying their old frame vs the well thought out nematic. shame there too because the standard qulbix looks pretty good, seems they put too much emphasis on sticking with the hub motor rather than something more suited to mid.

They've got so much potential too to team up with someone like lightningrods on his drive, maybe find a motor capable of ~15kw peak and fully integrate it into the swingarm... I'd buy that. I'd built it myself with something like a motenergy but my work is taking me to the EU for a few years, and im already strapped for time to make my own stuff, now im even more time poor I'd happily pay the $$ to just be able to go out and ride, just none of the commercially available solutions really suit... hoping that France/EU will offer up some opportunities for short run manufacturing that I cant seem to find here in AUS and I'll just design it and pay the $$ for someone to manufacture (my current biggest hurdle).

Also managed to connect with the CEO on FB... he mentioned the decision was a hotly debated item in the team, but the decision was unanimous, he hinted at some issues with a pedal driveline taking the 15kw as well as legalities of a 15kw pushbike... I'd have thought both were sermountable but in any case he seems a good bloke. Despite my disappointment I still hope they do well with it.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Feb 19 2020 11:58am

I don't buy the pedal driveline argument with the 15kW, as the pedal driveline does not take any of the motor power, it only takes the human power. And as for the legalities, they should not concern themselves with that and leave that to individuals based on their specific country requirements and possibilities which vary widely from country to country.

I could understand making a motorcycle version, but given they had a working design, I think they should have kept both options on the table.
Offer the motorcycle version for those who prefer that and offer the PAS version for those who prefer it.
May be if enough of the early adopters bail out they will reconsider making the option available....

And they better get homologation for the Motorcycle version or else their market will be very tiny.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Feb 19 2020 12:36pm

the peg mount assembly looks bolt on easily removable.. replace that with schlumpf style bb and run dbl freewheel on the concentric motor for the pedal input.. fixed;)
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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scrambler   100 W

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Feb 19 2020 1:15pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Feb 19 2020 12:36pm
the peg mount assembly looks bolt on easily removable.. replace that with schlumpf style bb and run dbl freewheel on the concentric motor for the pedal input.. fixed;)
First adding a sprocket on the motor axis may not be trivial as it would likely require a longer different axis to support it

And even if that was possible, it would not even be close to the original design :)
The two major benefits of the original version was the Pinion gearbox that gives decent pedaling cadence at all speeds, and most importantly, a Torque based pedal assist that allowed you to pedal with directly proportional assist which makes it extremely natural.

Adding the Pinion may still be possible but would likely require welding mounts (not trivial).
Getting the torque base sensing pedal assist would require for them to disclose what system they used...

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Merlin » Feb 19 2020 3:15pm

not sure if its the idea throwing out 9 grand and start putting a crappy pedal self build on it to pretend: look iam a bicycle i have pedals...

we all know how full suspension 50kg+ ebikes makes fun to pedal...and for those who allready know how much it sucks, remove the bicycle seat, put on a motoseat and now pedal this shit.

still interessted?

https://www.facebook.com/EXBikeWorldCup ... 246670943/

spin forward to 26 Min and look how this shit looks :D

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 19 2020 7:49pm

scrambler wrote:
Feb 19 2020 11:58am
I don't buy the pedal driveline argument with the 15kW, as the pedal driveline does not take any of the motor power, it only takes the human power. And as for the legalities, they should not concern themselves with that and leave that to individuals based on their specific country requirements and possibilities which vary widely from country to country.

I could understand making a motorcycle version, but given they had a working design, I think they should have kept both options on the table.
Offer the motorcycle version for those who prefer that and offer the PAS version for those who prefer it.
May be if enough of the early adopters bail out they will reconsider making the option available....

And they better get homologation for the Motorcycle version or else their market will be very tiny.
Neither do i, just relaying what i was told, and agree on legalities. I half suspect its more the case its a eMX company... they're sticking with what they know/like, and unfortunatly ebikes arn't one of em (or at least, not relative to a working eMX).

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Feb 19 2020 10:45pm

looks like they didn't really change the design much.. just bolted on different parts (moto seat & pegs).. sooo how about modular design.. slimmer battery and pedal kit for "bike" version .. then add more battery and peg/moto seat options for higher power moto bike version.. and any combinations in between by customer order..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Feb 20 2020 2:58pm

To be honest as long as the Neematic actually made it to the market I don't even care. So many delay's and so much hype in the start from the people behind the Neematic promising so much and delivering nothing, except ongoing delays and and lame excuses. I never thought the Neematic would make it an actual bike possible to buy. So I say hat off to the guys that got this thing started, they stuck to their guns no matter what and finally made deals so bike actually materialized. Looking at it all from their first post and until now I would say pedals or no pedals I respect that the where able to actually make this bike. There was a time I really could see myself riding one, but at the price, I can't really see any Neematic in my garage in the future. When Neematic was first revealed to the public both the 20 kw power and the price made sense. Today we got a bike that matches the specs for less money that is spec'd with upgraded controller and even custom batterypack with change to spare.

But the process of taking anything from back of the brain, via a drawing board, prototyping, testing and actually make a final product is no small task, and it takes man hours, dedication and a vision. So I tip my hat to the guys behind Neematic in respect. Bike is here, and not everyone will ride a "china bike" so I am sure even without the pedals this Neematic bike will find riders and new owners.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by John in CR » Feb 21 2020 4:32am

What did you guys expect when they're still calling it a 20kw bike that's unlikely to come close to that output?

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Ohbse » Feb 21 2020 5:02pm

Thread title is 20kw but all the published specs are 15, which is possible, though seems unlikely to maintain that output for any length of time.

2.2kwh pack assembled from 18650s or 21700 cells is pretty maxed out at 15kw output.

Personally, I think the pedals at this power level are pointless and a distraction or legal crutch so I think it's a better product without them. This bike had it been released on schedule would probably have had a substantial market and would have been something new, but as others have testified to, this is essentially a surron for twice the price that's arguably worse in a few ways.

A surron with the same battery pack and decent controller is right there in terms of performance. Plus you can have a road legal surron.

I hope they're successful and sell a ton, I like a lot of aspects to their products and engineering and they're kiwis too, but I certainly won't be buying one.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Feb 21 2020 11:26pm

Ohbse wrote:
Feb 21 2020 5:02pm
Thread title is 20kw but all the published specs are 15, which is possible, though seems unlikely to maintain that output for any length of time.

2.2kwh pack assembled from 18650s or 21700 cells is pretty maxed out at 15kw output.

Personally, I think the pedals at this power level are pointless and a distraction or legal crutch so I think it's a better product without them. This bike had it been released on schedule would probably have had a substantial market and would have been something new, but as others have testified to, this is essentially a surron for twice the price that's arguably worse in a few ways.

A surron with the same battery pack and decent controller is right there in terms of performance. Plus you can have a road legal surron.

I hope they're successful and sell a ton, I like a lot of aspects to their products and engineering and they're kiwis too, but I certainly won't be buying one.
I never really get why people still insist 'but it'll peak at 5/10/15/xx+kw whats the point of pedals'... my stealth peaks at 8kw, but when I'm riding I might only use 1kw, or 500w, or less... and pedal hard because on that ride I want some exercise, or to extend my range, where on another ride I want to get up a long 45deg hill, and on another ride I want to hit 70km'h. What the system is capable of and the effort I put in via pedals for exercise/extra range are not really related to each other in any way other than what speed the system can maintain when both are combined. Pedals also mean that should I run low on battery I can get 10-20km out of that last 5-10% of battery vs maybe ~2km (assuming a heavy bike). Maybe I'm missing something but I want pedals for many reasons beyond it still being 'bike-like'. I can appreciate the advantages of pegs, but not the reasoning behind 'but its powerful therefore pedals can only be just for show'.

Otherwise yea I agree with your sentiments - lack of pedals means it has to compete with established stuff that' at least one of cheaper, more powerful, more established brand, better quality/more heavy duty, more utility, more legal etc... I do still like the look of it though. Not as pretty in MX form as bike form but still looks good imo.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Chambers » Feb 22 2020 2:32am

I agree - Just because you have a sports-car doesn't mean that you are always racing.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by JuiceMeUp » Feb 25 2020 7:45pm

I personally like it in it's Moto form.
I know that this is an E-Bicycle forum and a lot of the appeal is being able to pedal past a cop at 25kph, then rip it when nobody is looking but I find that pedals just get in the way with performance off-road riding. I think that's what they're going for in the emerging market of light E-moto's. Carving out a place into the currently Surron dominated space
I've asked them for more specs and they remain tight lipped, claiming they "will release more information to the public once it's ready.. "
They also claim "There will be independent reviews and more videos coming for sure." and reference UBCO's strength in the market.
Sounds like there still sorting out final supply and design, while feeling out market interest by opening pre-orders at the same time.

UBCO. If you're reading this. Send a demo to Melbourne. I'll pay for freight. Give a comparison review and send it back to you :D

I've been watching this project with interest for a lot of years now (like the rest of you) but got to say that my Nuclear powered Surron is pretty fuckin good and will take something quite special to top it.
I really hope this can.
Here's a pic of of the FRX1 in it's moto form:
Screen Shot 2020-02-26 at 11.03.42 am.png
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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Feb 29 2020 6:35pm

I got to agree with your analysis, for the power they where aiming for pedals will for many people be more of pain then a joy. But as with most things in life, having options that suits your needs is often what makes people pull the trigger and commit to a purchase. I do think they will do a pedal version too, at least in the future if there are demands for that. I saw an ES bailed on his reservation due to the lack of pedals, and I get that too. If you need to ride "bike-mode" with ghost pedaling on public road to get to where you actually ride the lack of pedals can get you a ticket or even worse, render the neematic impounded. And after the long await that would be horrible. Not all countries or states are too found of high power e-bikes/motorcycles on public roads. And if it looks like your pedaling chances are you will not get busted. Well, maybe not.

And I got to repeat myself. I had lost all faith in the team behind the neematic due to all delays. But seeing this pic I tip my hat to them guys. Really great work, I bet it took some hard dedication to stick to it all this time. I respect your effort and hard work.

That motoX version got kind of sexy look to it ;)
I think you can handle the pic one more time....

Image

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Feb 29 2020 6:51pm

And the pedaling option the way it was implemented was way more than ghost pedaling.
With the pinion gearbox and a torque based pedal assist, you could actually enjoy the bike powering it with your legs.

That was a unique combination and very appealing for when you want to enjoy the feeling of powering the bike with your own sweat :)

I can only hope that someone at UBCO will see the light...

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by JuiceMeUp » Mar 02 2020 12:24am

So Dylan from NZ marketing just flicked me a brochure because I was asking questions on it's specs.
While I'd like to post the entire brochure, i've just managed to include the spec relevant screenshots, minus about a dozen action shots of the bike that don't hold relevance, other than emotional. Sorry. Having troubles with attachments.

I've zoomed up the pix and here's a quick summary of my thoughts on the build.

- Same Fastace suspension as the Surron.

- Same 19" rims as the Surron - I've beaten on them hard for 2 years and had no problems.

- Look like Magura brakes with braided lines - Noice!

- Slightly taller. Slightly longer and slightly heavier than the Surron. Mine as measured with Fox 40's and 26" MTB wheel:
830 Seat : 1240 Wheelbase : 1130 Height : 1900 Long See photo for FRX1 specs.

- Eccentric chain adjustment - single pivot shock

- Battery specs say 50V 2.2 kW. Do they mean 12S @ 110aH of an undisclosed cell type?
Website says a 6 hour recharge so aprox 18 Amp charge? Batteries are supposed to be hot-swappable

- Motor unknown, but liquid cooled, direct drive. Sprocket looks like a high 50's, low 60's tooth count. Can only speculate off the line torque and dead stop steep offroad hill start performance.

- Controller still unknown but has a bluetooth tunability feature and regen

Thought I'd share
Screen Shot 2020-03-02 at 3.35.35 pm.png
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Screen Shot 2020-03-02 at 3.52.58 pm.png
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