Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

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bakaneko   100 W

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Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by bakaneko » Oct 06 2019 5:02pm

So, realistic pricing scenario here guys, I want a 45mph cruise, 60 mph top, and 50 mile range at 45mph ebike. This is basically the equivalent of a 125cc motorcycle (Z125, Grom) but of course pure electric. If you had to do it what would be the build and cost. I would do it with LTO batteries and mid drive.

6kW Big Block LR motor - $700
72V 4kWH LTO - $3000
Fat Tire Bike/Enduro Frame - $700-1000
72V-100V 100A Controller - $200-300
72V 20A charger = $300
TOTAL = $5000!!!

So, in SE Wisconsin, you can buy a last years 2018 Kawasaki Z125 for $1900 so $2100-2200 out the door. That's literally two of those bikes... How would you do this?

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by Grantmac » Oct 06 2019 5:26pm

I'd buy the grom or manage my expectations.

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MJSfoto1956   10 kW

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Oct 06 2019 5:39pm

bakaneko wrote:
Oct 06 2019 5:02pm
So, realistic pricing scenario here guys, I want a 45mph cruise, 60 mph top, and 50 mile range at 45mph ebike. This is basically the equivalent of a 125cc motorcycle (Z125, Grom) but of course pure electric. If you had to do it what would be the build and cost. I would do it with LTO batteries and mid drive.
I would avoid LTO at all costs -- not enough energy density for a small EV like you are proposing. Li-ion is what you need. 60Ah for the specs you cite. Go from there.

M
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bakaneko   100 W

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by bakaneko » Oct 06 2019 5:52pm

MJSfoto1956 wrote:
Oct 06 2019 5:39pm

I would avoid LTO at all costs -- not enough energy density for a small EV like you are proposing. Li-ion is what you need. 60Ah for the specs you cite. Go from there.

M
yeah, I know its much lower specific energy density but that cycle life and high discharge/charge is enticing to make a bike from it. only problem is where would you even supercharge it? standard usa wall sockets are 1500W so a 72V20A charger is over that and doing two will trigger every circuit breaker... and, im in wisconsin; it aint a renewable, green, electric minded place.

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by MJSfoto1956 » Oct 06 2019 6:30pm

bakaneko wrote:
Oct 06 2019 5:52pm
yeah, I know its much lower specific energy density but that cycle life and high discharge/charge is enticing to make a bike from it. only problem is where would you even supercharge it? standard usa wall sockets are 1500W so a 72V20A charger is over that and doing two will trigger every circuit breaker... and, im in wisconsin; it aint a renewable, green, electric minded place.
Look, any technology you implement today is going to be out-of-date in 2-3 years. Build something that you can enjoy for 3 years and expect to replace some of the guts later on. Don't boil the ocean. No need. Keep to the standards and you will have half the work and worry.

M
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Слишком мало, слишком поздно

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by motomech » Oct 06 2019 7:07pm

You might want to post in the E-bike and motorcycle section.
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'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100H 201 frt. mounted, 14S Multistar LiPoly, elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A, Crazy Bobs on Alex DM32's 21 to 22 MPH. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28151&p=1373714&hilit=Idrive#p13737

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by E-HP » Oct 07 2019 10:34am

I ran several motors through the Grin simulator including a theoretical custom motor with very high efficiency, and all would require more battery to go 50 miles at 45 mph. How did you arrive at the capacity you listed?


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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by bakaneko » Oct 07 2019 2:55pm

E-HP wrote:
Oct 07 2019 10:34am
I ran several motors through the Grin simulator including a theoretical custom motor with very high efficiency, and all would require more battery to go 50 miles at 45 mph. How did you arrive at the capacity you listed?


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I watched ERT LR Big Block motor efficiency; seems to be about 4kW to sustain 45mph; multiple that by 1 hour = 4kWh or mebe a bit more. okay, i give up on LTO just too expensive for an experiment. sigh. with LiPo i can do it for just over the cost of a Kawasaki Z125 here $2200.

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by flat tire » Oct 07 2019 3:03pm

50 miles at 45 mph is motorcycle or scooter territory not bicycle. For the money spent on the ebike you can have a much better vehicle for that purpose.

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by bakaneko » Oct 07 2019 9:23pm

flat tire wrote:
Oct 07 2019 3:03pm
50 miles at 45 mph is motorcycle or scooter territory not bicycle. For the money spent on the ebike you can have a much better vehicle for that purpose.
wait, isnt this the purpose of this forum? to poosh the limits of ebikes to the MAX! that being said, maybe this build is coming closer. my wheel literally exploded today; the rims exploded outwards, scared the shit out of my neighbors walking.

need that duo suspension and heavy duty wheel to do 40mph+ on these worlds.

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by billvon » Oct 07 2019 9:46pm

bakaneko wrote:
Oct 06 2019 5:52pm
yeah, I know its much lower specific energy density but that cycle life and high discharge/charge is enticing to make a bike from it
To do a 60mph bike you are going to have to sacrifice pretty much every other spec. You'll be using li-ion of some form or another.
only problem is where would you even supercharge it? standard usa wall sockets are 1500W so a 72V20A charger is over that and doing two will trigger every circuit breaker...
So use a 220V charger when it's available, and use a 120V when it's not.
--bill von

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by E-HP » Oct 07 2019 10:24pm

bakaneko wrote:
Oct 07 2019 9:23pm
wait, isnt this the purpose of this forum? to poosh the limits of ebikes to the MAX!
Nah. I came to this forum and put together my bike to avoid going fast. If I'm going to die on two wheels, it's gonna be going 170+ mph, not on a bicycle going 60 mph. That would be a pitiful ending to my life; ridiculous actually. Don't need the sensation of going fast, unless I'm actually going fast, if that makes sense.

I tried one of those one wheel board things the other day. I was really crappy on it, riding on grass with hills, but eventually got up to around 15 mph. Legs really hurt from using weird muscles. I can see where one of those going 30 mph would feel fast. I think maybe a little better survival rate crashing on that, unless you hit a wall.

EDIT: Oh ya, off road is one thing, but riding around with a full faced helmet on the street or bike/walking path isn't quite my thing. I probably just need to get over it, but definitely feels less casual.

I LIKE the forum's focus on safety though. It's pretty awesome that way. Everyone has your back. :thumb:

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by flat tire » Oct 08 2019 1:30pm

bakaneko wrote:
Oct 07 2019 9:23pm
wait, isnt this the purpose of this forum? to poosh the limits of ebikes to the MAX!
What this guy wants to do isn't even close to pushing limits. But it is a bad configuration for his situation.

You could also make a 100 foot frame ebike to push it to the max; the bottom line is lengthy bicycle rides are quite uncomfortable compared to the same journey on a motorcycle or scooter. Not to mention safer since the parts are overengineered for the speeds and loads, not underengineered like the bicycle components he's selecting. I mean come on he obviously doesn't have good judgement there since a fat bike was selected instead of downhill and brakes and suspension are not even mentioned let alone specified.

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by bakaneko » Oct 08 2019 3:42pm

flat tire wrote:
Oct 08 2019 1:30pm
I mean come on he obviously doesn't have good judgement there since a fat bike was selected instead of downhill and brakes and suspension are not even mentioned let alone specified.
Dude, I was just joking. Many of the bikes here are already doing these speeds and more; I am just asking for a longer sustained ride. I have worked with gas motorized bikes (2&4 stroke) and ebikes (500,1000,3kW) for a bit now. You know premium gas bikes exceeds those speeds now with some up to 70mph; there is a 50mph club in the gas bike community which is a badge of honor in making a bike that can do that. I am at 45mph on my bike.

I am currently riding my 72V Cyclone gas generator ebike hybrid; this isnt the hardest build but its unique and I made it work. I agree duo suspension is needed for these high speeds even for mid 30s I think its needed. I said fat tire but you assumed no suspension; I said nothing of that sort. No way, you can do 45 without suspension and a beefy wheel.

And, I take criticism and feedback easily. I want to do LTO but the price is just too high and in SE Wisconsin the infrastructure is just not in place for me to setup an onboard supercharger (0-80% in 20-30mins). So, yeah, as MJSfoto1956 said, I just have to give it up. That is fine; I just wont be the guy to do it though I think that technology is promising despite the relative low energy density as recharge rate and cycle life is key.

And, I will try to get a "home made" motorcycle title and licence for it. As riding 45-60mph at the side of the road is super dodgy. It is suppose to be a 125cc equivalent.

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by Tony01 » Oct 10 2019 6:59pm

Sadly the range limit is in charging. At random 110v plugs on the streets the most you can pull is about 1000w before blowing a circuit. So for a 50mi range at 45mph cruise you are looking at about 5hrs of 10 miles range of charge per hour. That really sucks.

What about level 2 EV charging stations? Yea, good luck with finding a charger that is tough enough and cheap enough to mount on a bike, then put some time in figuring out the communication to the charge station. And that’s a big if, if your battery can handle high charge rates (my 24ah can handle 5c, or 10kw charge, do I get to use it? Hell no) Get the grom. Or build a hybrid! My next project.
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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by amberwolf » Oct 10 2019 10:28pm

billvon wrote:
Oct 07 2019 9:46pm
So use a 220V charger when it's available, and use a 120V when it's not.
Or something like Meanwell HLG series LED PSUs, which autoswitch between those input voltages.

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by billvon » Oct 10 2019 10:29pm

amberwolf wrote:
Oct 10 2019 10:28pm
Or something like Meanwell HLG series LED PSUs, which autoswitch between those input voltages.
Those are great, but they will not automatically cut back on power when 120 volts is present (as he wants.) You could use several in parallel and only connect all of them when 240V is available. You could probably do this with a single relay.
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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by e-beach » Oct 10 2019 11:17pm

An electric scooter could work. Maybe a small converted motorcycle. But you want a bicycle.....

Sounds to me like you are looking for a custom frame that can carry a lot of weight. After all, bicycles are not scooters or motorcycles. Some might be able to move them fast, but if you really want to go electric, then you need to compensate for the weight of what you want. Something custom, something special. Start talking to the welders around you and see what they think they can do.

I have been dreaming about LTO batteries my self. Hopefully you will save a little longer and go with them on a higher budget so we can find out what they can do. You would be a kind of a pioneer around here. And that is not easy to do any more.

As for fast charging, you need to know the 35 amp 110v outlets in your area, and the 220v outlets. Most-likely, your battery would need to be split-able to charge halves or thirds at a time. Or chargeable at a Tesla station or some place like that.

A good down hill headset and forks, an extended frame, fat tires (or better yet moped tires) would be my place to start.

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by j bjork » Oct 12 2019 12:49pm

The thing is, to be able to travel at those speeds for that long it will be a motorcycle when it is finished.
Even if you start with a vector or similar frame, you won´t be able to fit enough batteries. You will have to build it wider or something. It will be heavy.. My bike with just 20Ah weight about 65kg. With a lighter frame it could probably be about 10kg lighter. You will have to use moped or motorcycle tires, that will have higher rolling resistance than bicycle tires.
Sure it will be possible, but it will not look much like a bicycle.

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Re: Pricing - 45mph cruise, 60mph top, 50 mile range (cruise speed)

Post by Balmorhea » Oct 12 2019 3:43pm

It seems like it would be more straightforward to start with a scooter, moped, or light motorcycle. At 45mph+, pedaling wastes more power as aero drag than you are likely to add with pedal power anyway.

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