Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

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serious_sam   1 kW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by serious_sam » Mar 21 2020 4:39am

PITMIX wrote:
Mar 21 2020 2:23am
no I use the couple mode
What is the couple mode?

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Mar 21 2020 4:43am

Torque sorry :lol:
Aixam 550 Twin retrophite Qs 138 70H, Thermo-Nucular electronics 24F, LG Chem 20s 60Ah

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by madin88 » Mar 21 2020 4:56am

PITMIX wrote:
Mar 21 2020 1:08am
Hi guys.
With my 24F whether I use the engine brake function or not, when the FW is activated and when I release the accelerator pedal there is a very powerful engine brake. Do you know how I can fix this?
Thank you
I know about that.
The reason why this happens is because if you exceed a given motor RPM, the BEMF (voltage on motor side) could reach a dangerous level and controller tries to avoid to get damaged from that and so it slows you down until the voltage is safe.

What happens if you release throttle very very slowly (or gas pedal in your case)? When doing so it did not brake anymore in my case.
It might also help to set a speed limit and turn it down until this doesn't happen anymore, but you will loose a bit of top speed when doing so.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by serious_sam » Mar 21 2020 5:05am

PITMIX wrote:
Mar 21 2020 4:43am
Torque sorry :lol:
Of course, couple=torque. Sorry, I should have recognised that!

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by serious_sam » Mar 21 2020 5:08am

madin88 wrote:
Mar 21 2020 4:56am
controller tries to avoid to get damaged from that and so it slows you down until the voltage is safe.
Very interesting. Did you get this info from Vasiliy or Nuc staff?

In my understanding, the Nuc limits top speed in FW mode to ensure the back EMF never reaches dangerous levels. I'll see if I can find the reference

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by serious_sam » Mar 21 2020 5:13am

serious_sam wrote:
Mar 21 2020 5:08am
I'll see if I can find the reference
Here it is.
From here :
http://wiki.nucular.tech/en:controller-setup#toc8
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Mar 21 2020 6:44am

Thank you for the information I will check this. I think if I gently release the accelerator it doesn't happen.

PS : couple in French is torque in English :roll:
Aixam 550 Twin retrophite Qs 138 70H, Thermo-Nucular electronics 24F, LG Chem 20s 60Ah

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by serious_sam » Mar 21 2020 7:16am

:bigthumb: :bigthumb:
PITMIX wrote:
Mar 21 2020 6:44am
PS : couple in French is torque in English :roll:
In engineering, a couple is two equal forces which act in opposite directions on an object, but not through the same point, so they produce a torque. Couple=torque. :roll:
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Merlin » Mar 21 2020 7:19am

serious_sam wrote:
Mar 21 2020 5:08am
madin88 wrote:
Mar 21 2020 4:56am
controller tries to avoid to get damaged from that and so it slows you down until the voltage is safe.
Very interesting. Did you get this info from Vasiliy or Nuc staff?

In my understanding, the Nuc limits top speed in FW mode to ensure the back EMF never reaches dangerous levels. I'll see if I can find the reference
maybe this is the reason why higher voltage setups doesnt gain any speed advantages compared to lower voltage setups ;(

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by serious_sam » Mar 21 2020 7:30am

Merlin wrote:
Mar 21 2020 7:19am
maybe this is the reason why higher voltage setups doesnt gain any speed advantages compared to lower voltage setups ;(
Sounds about right.

But FW is inefficient, so using it all the time just burns power and overheats the motor. It's like a turbo boost button. Only good in short bursts.

Trying to get more speed with a lower voltage pack and using FW is a false economy. You'll need a much bigger pack anyway (more Ah) to pay for the wasted amps used by FW.

If you want more speed, better off using maximum voltage pack, and a fast motor winding.

Just my opinion.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Merlin » Mar 21 2020 7:44am

fw is used everywhere in evs world. its not that bad in effiency.
it suffers yes, but not that hard that you need different batterys.

boost is something short for me. field weakening starts smooth and you dont need to push the limits on every ride.
if your normal voltage reaches 50kph and you ride 60kph you will not notice any difference in Efficiency (except of the higher need in power for 10kph more aka windresistance)

in normal usage to gain 10-15kph more i think your Efficiency loss is below 5%

on a high speed run normally ppl dont care about efficieny :D

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by serious_sam » Mar 21 2020 7:51am

Merlin wrote:
Mar 21 2020 7:44am
in normal usage to gain 10-15kph more i think your Efficiency loss is below 5%
You've got me wondering now. Tomorrow I might do some runs with/without FW, and takes notes of the power requirements and temperatures. I'll report back here what I get.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Merlin » Mar 21 2020 10:26am

you can try, but "feelings" about how much it makes a different is not really measureable because of so many factors.
biggest problem is comparing "consumption/heat/efficiency" with different speeds.

a dyno would be needed to have usable data.

or 2 same bikes with same controllers but different batterys...like 16s vs 20s and both tested side by side with 2 ppl who have same weight doing 10x 10km runs at speeds above the 16s batterys stock speed w/o fw enabled.

and here we are allready with the problem. for example a surron with 16s runs easy 70kph.
at 70kph your windresistance is the biggest factor in efficiency.

i bet one of my nuc waiting queue places your wh/km make no difference if you do a 20miles run 16s(fw enabled to reach 80kph) vs a 20s battery w/o fw enabled....side by side no slipstream.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Mar 21 2020 11:04am

@madin88 do you think that using the Qs 138 on a vehicle over 400kg and with a gear ratio greater than 7 engine revolutions for 1 wheel revolution accentuates the problem ?
I think that the inertia created by the weight of the vehicle and the speed of rotation which is at the maximum of what accept the engine in FW, increases the phenomenon. The FW must be adjusted very weakly in this case, so as not to damage the motor.
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by madin88 » Mar 21 2020 11:34am

PITMIX wrote:
Mar 21 2020 11:04am
@madin88 do you think that using the Qs 138 on a vehicle over 400kg and with a gear ratio greater than 7 engine revolutions for 1 wheel revolution accentuates the problem ?
I think that the inertia created by the weight of the vehicle and the speed of rotation which is at the maximum of what accept the engine in FW, increases the phenomenon. The FW must be adjusted very weakly in this case, so as not to damage the motor.
Yes thats why i would set a speed limit to limit max RPM and avoid the thing with regen braking if you release throttle.
Or change the gearing for more speed and install a second motor + controller :mrgreen:

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Mar 21 2020 11:44am

I am mainly trying to understand how it works. With my 56T pinion the ratio is 9.3.
In this case the FW is essential to exceed 45km / h but with my 44T pinion the speed is 56km / h without FW it is more than enough. Thank you for the information.
Aixam 550 Twin retrophite Qs 138 70H, Thermo-Nucular electronics 24F, LG Chem 20s 60Ah

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by madin88 » Mar 21 2020 11:59am

serious_sam wrote:
Mar 21 2020 7:30am
But FW is inefficient, so using it all the time just burns power and overheats the motor. It's like a turbo boost button. Only good in short bursts.

Trying to get more speed with a lower voltage pack and using FW is a false economy. You'll need a much bigger pack anyway (more Ah) to pay for the wasted amps used by FW.
FW is only inefficient if you use it on motor with surface mounted magnets.
On IPM motors it usually is a good thing since on most of them you can gain RPM and torque so you would even see higher ETA and less heat when using it (over the entire RPM range then)

The problem i think is the controller has 100V components limit and if you have 20s battery or more, then there is not much room for a gain.
In my case it was about 30-40% gain in speed with 20s (bike went from 50kmh to around 70kmh on the flat), but then it did the regen thing at throttle off.

If you have only 13s 48V battery you certainly can get 100% or more speed gain.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by Merlin » Mar 21 2020 12:44pm

But how did adaptto and asi sort those things out?

With these controllers you gain massive more speed.
Asi btw is limited to 90v only VS 92v nuc.

There must be something "different" how fw is used 🤔

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by zeccato » Mar 21 2020 4:01pm

Interesting, but what about me?😋
How is the FW (120% for 55km/h) with 6f, on Mac T8, in wheel 22, 16s Lfp?
(Battery is ok, me and the bike are light, now 45km/h).
Efficient enough?
No problem for the hub?
Full susp. folding 20 swxh r. (2011),. 02 2020 MacT8. batt. 48v. 25A Life (2012), and 48 7,5A a123 (2018?). Controller programmable EB3 12 FET. Charger Balancer 14s: TP1430C. Gophert CPS-6011 60V 11A. Mercury (rarely). Buzzer. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 6dXxc9-lNW

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by serious_sam » Mar 21 2020 5:18pm

Merlin wrote:
Mar 21 2020 10:26am
you can try, but "feelings" about how much it makes a different is not really measureable because of so many factors.
Or I can just ride on the same path over and over and look at the screen to see power/speed/temperature. Sure there is more measurement error, but I'm not looking for exact perfect data, but if there is significant difference, it should be obvious.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by serious_sam » Mar 21 2020 6:04pm

madin88 wrote:
Mar 21 2020 11:59am
FW is only inefficient if you use it on motor with surface mounted magnets.
On IPM motors it usually is a good thing since on most of them you can gain RPM and torque so you would even see higher ETA and less heat when using it (over the entire RPM range then)
I guess the majority of us are using surface mounted magnets, so it didn't cross my mind to consider different effects on different motor types.

But I do think that it's interesting, now you bring it up. Thanks for raising that. Do you know of any references or further reading for more detail on specifically why FW is more efficient on IPM motors?

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by serious_sam » Mar 21 2020 11:20pm

Back from the ride. I found a section of flat road, and rode back and forth, over and over. Accelerated smoothly to minimise motor heating during the take off part of each lap. Used no regen. These power figures are based on the peak number that I saw on the first lap of each test, then I continued doing laps to get steady state motor temperature.

No FW:
Max speed = 75km/h
Power in = 3100W
Theoretical Power = 3100W (CdA adjusted to match power in)
Max motor temp = 90degC, reached steady state during second lap.

With FW:
Max speed = 91km/h
Power in = 5900W
Theoretical Power = 5540W (based on above CdA)
Pdifference = 360W
Max motor temp = 130degC, power cut at lap #2.5 (this is where I have the temp limit set atm for the MXUS3k)

Comments:
1) Based on these numbers, I change my opinion. I stand corrected. The 360W difference between measured and calculated is small, probably less than the measurement error (due to variation in conditions, etc). I was expecting much bigger numbers. Seems like FW efficiency isn't anywhere near as bad as I originally thought.
2) Seems like ferrofluid (genuine Statorade) doesn't work above a certain speed ? I noticed that after I did the FW runs, the motor would overheat again much more easily than normal, even at lower speeds and after it had cooled somewhat. Possibly the FF creeps away from the air gap due to the centrifugal force, and doesn't immediately return. Not sure. Anyone else had similar experience ?

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by j bjork » Mar 22 2020 4:06am

serious_sam wrote:
Mar 21 2020 11:20pm

2) Seems like ferrofluid (genuine Statorade) doesn't work above a certain speed ? I noticed that after I did the FW runs, the motor would overheat again much more easily than normal, even at lower speeds and after it had cooled somewhat. Possibly the FF creeps away from the air gap due to the centrifugal force, and doesn't immediately return. Not sure. Anyone else had similar experience ?
As I remember from Justins tread it was concluded that more was needed at higher rpm. A few ml was enough on low rpm, but on higher rpm at least 10ml I think.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by john61ct » Mar 22 2020 7:51am

Thermal mass effect, subsequent temp rises will be much faster, unless really letting the metal return to ambient

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by madin88 » Mar 24 2020 4:26am

Merlin wrote:
Mar 21 2020 12:44pm
But how did adaptto and asi sort those things out?

With these controllers you gain massive more speed.
Asi btw is limited to 90v only VS 92v nuc.

There must be something "different" how fw is used 🤔
That only know the devolopers.
One assumption is that Nuc want's to protect the Controller in case of fault with voltage supply.
I guess that bad things would happen if a fuse is blowing or if BMS cuts out at the moment when someone is pushing max power with FW, and BEMF being higher than max rating of controller parts (100V).
This is of course only an assumption..

How is phase current of Nuc definded, is it peak or RMS?

If it's rated for 500A RMS it would be 700A peak
while a 500A peak rating would be around 350A RMS
serious_sam wrote:
Mar 21 2020 11:20pm
2) Seems like ferrofluid (genuine Statorade) doesn't work above a certain speed ? I noticed that after I did the FW runs, the motor would overheat again much more easily than normal, even at lower speeds and after it had cooled somewhat. Possibly the FF creeps away from the air gap due to the centrifugal force, and doesn't immediately return. Not sure. Anyone else had similar experience ?
Open your motor and take a look. I am sure that one part did evaportate and another part got soaked up by the stator (between lams), windings etc..
I did put 10ml into same motor and after 2 years and 3000-4000km it was gone, and furthermore all the magnets were loose because the FF did react with the glue and dissolved it.

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