Car alternators as motors in practical applications, videos.

Electric Motors and Controllers
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GeorgeJpindustries   100 µW

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Car alternators as motors in practical applications, videos.

Post by GeorgeJpindustries » Jul 05 2014 11:31pm

The drift trike
IMG_2227.gif
http://youtu.be/_TmlYlsgw1Q

http://youtu.be/c41pqhck4Lk

http://youtu.be/gKK7sdO6Jks

http://youtu.be/YpIt9cNQSPA


The go kart
IMG_2226.gif[/attachment Well , these two and three scooters , and a mower ( no pictures of those yet , sorry) are the living proof that Lundell alternator can be used as a motor reliably , efficiently , and best of all cheaply :D . Best way to share my observations is through a comparison with something we all know - 80/100 outrunners. So here is a list of pros and cons (it took me few years of bittersweet experience to come to these conclusions). [b]Turnigy outrunner:[/b] Pros: -small and light -torquey and powerful (2kw continuous in Australian summer is a max. though) -reasonably efficient (thin stator laminations - better for high rpm) -cheap Cons: -structurally weak (it must be mounted on a plate with auxiliary support bearing) -needs to be rewound with high temp wire -12mm shaft -low inductance and resistance , which makes it hard on the controller -high KV , even when terminated in wye and more turns than original -noisy ( I personally like the noise) Couple of pictures of probably the most elaborate 80/80 outrunner box in history :roll: [attachment=1]8080.jpg
8080 for razor e300.jpg
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Alternators

Pros:
-bullet proof (designed to run at 15000rpm)
-massive bearings, and only two of them , not five like the outrunner(including the support one)
-no magnets - no risk of overheating and cooking them
-possibility of field weakening(from my experience this is only partially useful)
-more controller friendly inductance and resistance values
-low KV ( the one on the trike is about 40KV)
-good thermal mass , all aluminium too
-17mm shaft or bigger
-torque , even from mechanical standpoint, the one on the kart has a rotor diameter of 97mm compared to 80mm of the outrunners outer can
-silent running , even sensorless.
-well suited for high temperature operation
-cheaper (I have unlimited supply of free alts. :twisted: )

Cons:
-relatively big and heavy
-only some of them have stator laminations thin enough to be viable as a motor
-energizing the field consumes power (30-60w) , and it has to be around 12v (I have dc-dc converters on all my vehicles anyway though)
-the shaft is too short sometimes
-slip rings with brushes

Plus then there`s the argument of outrunner vs inrunner , but that`s irrelevant , because I use both of these motor configurations , depending on application suitability.

So how do I convert an alt? Here is step by step of what I do:

1.Identify a suitable alt. (ideally one with the lams exposed, to measure the thickness)

2.I rip off the rectifier (not always possible , because the brush holder is sometimes integral with the assembly) , exposing the phase wires.

3.Re-terminate in wye (unless already is), don`t bother with delta, trust me.

4.Solder wires DIRECTLY to the ends of the field exciting brushes, bypassing the voltage regulator. Reason to do this is, the back - emf voltage spikes induced into the rotor by the controller will over short time kill the regulator. Trust me, I know , this was a major headache for me when trying to make this to be reliable. Don`t worry, the field coil`s resistance will keep the current at about 3-4 amps at 12v.

5.Solder cables of equal length to the phase terminations.

6.Hook up to sensor-less controller , field coil directly to 12v supply and there is your motor.

Some observations:
I only run these sensor-less , with 12 fet e-crazyman controllers , that I fitted out with some decent silicon and capacitance and current set at 40/80,on the trike, it never looses sync , even starting from standstill uphill and going full throttle straight up. It just spins the wheel and takes off.

The trike runs 15s li-ion battery so fully charged , with voltage sag of 4v - about 2.3kw . It can run all day full stick , regardless of temperature , pulls like steam train , and heating of the altermotor is minimal. I`d estimate the efficiency of that particular alt. at 85%.
The one on the kart is worse however, running 24fet 4110 controller at 55/125A at 24s a123 lifepo4. At full charge that`s about 4.7kw , but from what i know , it only feels like 3.5kw is being transferred into mechanical work. Heating of that motor is pretty bad (it has zero airflow however). The kart still flies though :twisted: .

When choosing the alt. and it says 14v 105a for example , you`ll be able to feed it about 75A of phase current (70%) , 40 A battery,reliably in all weather conditions.

As you can see it really depends which one you pick to convert , newer Mitsubishi alts ,for example ,have two sets of three phases ( maybe 6 phase stator or double wye , i don`t know), but they have very thin lams (0.28mm) and massive stator width (50mm+) , 120mm rotor diameter and utilizing rectangular wire for maximum copper fill ,so worth investigating further.

Voltage over amperage every time.
Some of these have only single 1.6mm wire coming out of each phase ,after I terminate the stator in wye, limiting the current.

The xiechang controllers have very easy time driving these motors.
Result is virtually bulletproof system,both mechanically and electrically.

In conclusion , these motors are great if you`re on a budget , or just building a toy for fun, and the best efficiency is not you primary criteria.
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Last edited by GeorgeJpindustries on Jul 09 2014 5:08am, edited 3 times in total.

Tench   100 kW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications

Post by Tench » Jul 06 2014 4:29am

Thank you for joining the ES and sharing your work with the alternators, you have most certainly got a few people thinking about this now. Maybe a few pics to show how you reterminate the windings to help those that wish to try but have no previous experience of doing this would be a very big help.
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Harold in CR   1 MW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications

Post by Harold in CR » Jul 06 2014 7:17am

Newer Mitsubishi ? Compared to what ?? Year, model, vehicle type it came from, Amp ratings ?

There is another detailed tread on the forum, showing 6 wires from the stator. No mention of what this alternator was removed from.

Nice write up and good info.

As mentioned, photos would add a lot to this thread.

Thanks for posting. 8)
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

Harold in CR   1 MW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications

Post by Harold in CR » Jul 06 2014 9:02pm

SOOOooooooooo, how many altermotors do YOU have running ??
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

litespeed   100 kW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications

Post by litespeed » Jul 07 2014 6:43am

What a great idea!

Tom
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wb9k   10 kW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications

Post by wb9k » Jul 07 2014 12:04pm

Neat stuff! Got any video?
dh
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parabellum   10 MW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications

Post by parabellum » Jul 07 2014 9:42pm

Nice, informative write up!
GeorgeJpindustries wrote:-only some of them have stator laminations thin enough to be viable as a motor
List or proved to work alternators with thin lams and some efficiency would be great. Thanks!

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Skalabala   1 kW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications

Post by Skalabala » Jul 08 2014 2:41am

Some sort of info I was looking for! My stator that I want to use for a diy motor sucks :(
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 30&t=58834
I would think if you can use two of those 50mm+ stators and make a neodymium rotor then you could end up with something good? :mrgreen:
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GeorgeJpindustries   100 µW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications, vid

Post by GeorgeJpindustries » Jul 09 2014 5:19am

Tench wrote:Thank you for joining the ES and sharing your work with the alternators, you have most certainly got a few people thinking about this now. Maybe a few pics to show how you reterminate the windings to help those that wish to try but have no previous experience of doing this would be a very big help.
Harold in CR wrote:Newer Mitsubishi ? Compared to what ?? Year, model, vehicle type it came from, Amp ratings ?

There is another detailed tread on the forum, showing 6 wires from the stator. No mention of what this alternator was removed from.

Nice write up and good info.

As mentioned, photos would add a lot to this thread.

Thanks for posting. 8)
Harold in CR wrote:SOOOooooooooo, how many altermotors do YOU have running ??
Skalabala wrote:Some sort of info I was looking for! My stator that I want to use for a diy motor sucks :(
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 30&t=58834
I would think if you can use two of those 50mm+ stators and make a neodymium rotor then you could end up with something good? :mrgreen:
I have 5 altermotors running now : costumer`s evo 800 , stand up scooter , trike , kart and a mower.
I`ll try to put together more comprehensive write up , with photos.
Don`t bother with PM conversion, I have done one and it`s not worth it. The rotor never comes up as balanced as from the factory, magnets are expensive (this is a budget motor solution after all, if you have money buy a real motor) and you`ll lose one of the best features - field coil = extreme temperature operation capability.
I had one of these things at 138 degrees C in summer ( not due to the inefficiency btw , just pure abuse :twisted: ), at that temperature the magnets lose it quickly.

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Skalabala   1 kW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications, vid

Post by Skalabala » Jul 09 2014 6:13am

Picture or link of that 50mm stator please :P
Yes magnets are expensive :( Balancing is not a problem :)
Hmmm, now that I think of it... That rotor field is really strong! Actually like neodymium :?
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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications, vid

Post by IanFiTheDwarf » Jul 10 2014 7:03am

Apparently you can fit two ceramic magnets from microwave oven magnetrons to the rotor in place of the copper. It won’t have the torque of a neodymium rotor but you can salvage them for free.
Take care with stripping the magnetron as there is a little ceramic piece on the magnetron which is poisonous

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Skalabala   1 kW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications, vid

Post by Skalabala » Jul 10 2014 5:54pm

Image
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ShadowNightmares   1 µW

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Re: Car alternators as motors in practical applications, videos.

Post by ShadowNightmares » Jan 07 2020 11:26am

Sorry, i know that this topic is "dead" for a long time already, but i found it today and i loved your builds.
Do you still have your supply of alternators, and where are you from? (here in my country new ones with 85A+ are really expensive and used ones aren't easy to find, i'm thinking of trying to find alternators in other countries)

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