ES DIY Motor Challenge

Electric Motors and Controllers
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mwkeefer   10 MW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by mwkeefer » Dec 03 2009 2:51pm

John,

Just put the nylon gears back in, seperate the mag ring and drill the thing from the backside divits to reduce weight and finally drill the living crap out of your covers - I'm talking 1" or bigger diameter holes... and run it without any lube - try teflon power like you use for a bowling ball - be sure you have it mounted to a suspension fork and if you still need to loose some weight... well start unwinding every third phase or so... maybe a cromo axle or somthing stronger and lighter than the factory axle? Magnesium is awful light (and as strong as aluminum if cast properly) - Half Kidding

Um... fellas maybe title should include the word Electric, ie: "ES DIY Electric Motor Challenge" - or can I submit the my wenkle design rotary gas powered ebike/lev hub motor? - (Kidding and no, I won't do the photoshop)

I've only ever built 1 electric motor from scratch, I was 6 years old and it was nails, magnets and that Green xmas wire for windings - add 9v battery and a flick of the finger (can you say pedalec) and I was hooked for life.

-Mike
Regards,
Mike

{My Rides]
2010 Dahon Jack - GNG v1 - LYEN 6FET - 20/40A - 18S2P10AH - Nom:66.6v,1332w
2004 Hard Rock Pro Disc - Recumpence ms eDrive v4 - Astro 3220 4T - 12S2P16AH - HV110 - Left Side Drive - Gearing: 38mph
Nominal Peak Power @ 60 seconds: 5328 watts - Maximum Power: 49.8v, 120A, 5872w
2010 Downtube 8FH - Stock GNG v1 Stock Controller - EB809XC - 12-16S
2012 Downtube Nova 7spd - Stock GNG v2 - 12S2P10AH - EB809 - 12S-16S - 20A/30A,Nom VCC: 44.4, 888w

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recumpence   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by recumpence » Dec 03 2009 4:34pm

mwkeefer wrote:I've only ever built 1 electric motor from scratch, I was 6 years old and it was nails, magnets and that Green xmas wire for windings - add 9v battery and a flick of the finger (can you say pedalec) and I was hooked for life.

-Mike
Oh, Man, I built one of those myself. I think I was 7 or 8, though. So, you got the jump on me! ;)

Matt
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mwkeefer   10 MW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by mwkeefer » Dec 03 2009 5:22pm

Matt, I hate to admit but I think this is turtle vs hare {I'm the hare, roadkill on I95} and we all know who won that race {hint: its not the guy with the green bailing wire direct drive motor running 9v} - Mike
Regards,
Mike

{My Rides]
2010 Dahon Jack - GNG v1 - LYEN 6FET - 20/40A - 18S2P10AH - Nom:66.6v,1332w
2004 Hard Rock Pro Disc - Recumpence ms eDrive v4 - Astro 3220 4T - 12S2P16AH - HV110 - Left Side Drive - Gearing: 38mph
Nominal Peak Power @ 60 seconds: 5328 watts - Maximum Power: 49.8v, 120A, 5872w
2010 Downtube 8FH - Stock GNG v1 Stock Controller - EB809XC - 12-16S
2012 Downtube Nova 7spd - Stock GNG v2 - 12S2P10AH - EB809 - 12S-16S - 20A/30A,Nom VCC: 44.4, 888w

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 03 2009 8:26pm

Axel from Sweden sent me a rough draft of a manual (with lots of pics) to build a home-made 6" axial-flux 500W@36V motor and DIY opto-controller. It is for an RC plane, and it is only one-phase. He has recieved a lot of interest and is putting together a tutorial for a much larger 3-phase axial (should be available in 6 months), which he plans to sell the PDF for a modest price.

I plan on scaling down his 3-phase motor to a 1,000W@48V to power a DIY longtail bike. I just picked up a used Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub I hope to use as a jackshaft/transmission, and I may go ahead and build the bike with a temporary TNC motor as it will be months before I will even start building an "Axel"-motor. At this rate, it might take 9 months, wish me luck...

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by amberwolf » Dec 03 2009 8:36pm

mwkeefer wrote:Um... fellas maybe title should include the word Electric, ie: "ES DIY Electric Motor Challenge" - or can I submit the my wenkle design rotary gas powered ebike/lev hub motor? - (Kidding and no, I won't do the photoshop)
Something like this, but using Wankel?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Felix_Millet.jpg
;)

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Thud   100 MW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Thud » Dec 03 2009 9:01pm

While i am thinking of it I have several versions of my axial designs draw in cad, I can easily convert them to a pdf & they are free for the taking. I just need to add some dimensions to the models.
if any one is interested.
get some......

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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 03 2009 10:08pm

This is interesting reading on this topic:

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT/2006/RX/ ... ebert.html

It kinda shows why the decision to make this about specific torque makes for a more EV applicable challenge than specific power. If we make it about specific power, it's going to come down to doing 1 turn windings all in parallel with 4 magnet rotors, ceramic bearings, and long thin motors pushing things into the 50-100,000rpm area. It would be very cool purely from an engineering perspective, but it's going to need a real PITA reduction setup to make it useful for an EV. It's also going to get expensive very quickly with the need for super-materials to withstand extreme RPM G'forces.

Torque/weight allows a normal guy working with model aircraft plywood, a hand router, and a small budget can win if he comes up with the most clever design, rather than having it be about who can afford the best ceramic bearing technology and magnets lashed onto a rotor with kevlar thread and a 1/4" air gap to jump the KV into the 5,000RPM/V range.

Who ever can make the most torquey design by weight could also be the most powerful by weight with enough voltage and adquate rotor material strength. :)
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Miles   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Miles » Dec 04 2009 4:57am

liveforphysics wrote: Who ever can make the most torquey design by weight could also be the most powerful by weight with enough voltage and adquate rotor material strength. :)
Thanks Luke. I couldn't have put it better. :D

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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 04 2009 8:35am

Anyone thought about how we are going to do the testing?

We gotta have them all tested on the same piece of equipment by somebody we all trust. That means I'm out, because I freely admit that I cheat to win anything I'm entered in, and I will be entering this. ;) :)

I would trust Miles to fairly and accurately test torque on the motors, but he is in England, which would be kinda strange for shipping bizzare things both ways. Also, I would love to have you enter Miles! It could be your first motor build :)

All the automotive dyno-cells I've got access to don't start to read torque until 50ft-lbs. :(

Any ideas about who can do the testing? I know BigMoose is as honest and capable as any on earth, but he is up to his eyeballs in NASA projects right now :(

I've spent 2hours tonight just shopping magnets for this... lol The magnet is the part I can't make myself, you you essentially need to pick a magnet layout first, then design the motor around it. It actually feels a lot like building a race engine. So many magnet choices, and all of them comprimises in some way or another. :(
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Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Miles » Dec 04 2009 9:02am

How about we design, and build collectively, a robust dyno test set-up? This could be shipped to each person when they are ready to test their masterpiece... Is this a viable alternative to having one person do the testing?

What's needed in the test? Proof of torque level sustained for 30 minutes? Proof of weight.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by fechter » Dec 04 2009 9:22am

Since the objective is to make a motor that can push a bike, I think it's fair to include the overall gearing to the wheels in the efficiency measurement.

One measurement would be the watt-hours per km at a specific speed. Anyone with a CycleAnalyst or similar device can make this measurement. This is really what we're after in the end.

Here's an interesting motor design: http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article ... polarMotor
I made one of these and it always got going so fast the rotor flew off. Now how do you make a brushless version of it?

I once tried taking an old car alternator and shorted the field winding on the rotor and fed the stator with 3 phase from my scooter controller. With the field coil shorted, the thing acts like an induction motor. I don't think I had the drive optimized and it was running open loop, but the thing got spinning really, really fast. So fast that I was worried about it flying apart. Had no torque however.
Alternator test setup.jpg
Alternator test setup.jpg (78.46 KiB) Viewed 4065 times
Here's an interesting coreless axial motor. The magnet is a solid ring that's magnetized with poles in a Hallbach array. There is non-moving back iron behind the coils, so I don't think it is very efficient. You can see the hall sensors in the middle of the upper left coils.
Axial ironless axial motora.jpg
Axial ironless axial motora.jpg (36.75 KiB) Viewed 4098 times
Here's another good motor, the AstroFlight AF3210. This has overlapping windings similar to a Crystalyte hub motor. I wonder how they keep the rotor from flying apart at high rpm?
AstroFlight_AF3210-12T-02.jpg
AstroFlight_AF3210-12T-02.jpg (151.47 KiB) Viewed 2364 times
One of my earlier motor projects was my Zappy motor. After burning it up twice, I replaced the wimpy ceramic magnets with some really strong Neodynium ones that just happen to fit the curvature of the motor housing. This allowed me to rewind the armature with about half the turns of much heavier wire. The result had at least 5x the power of the original motor.
A-0059.jpg
A-0059.jpg (57.38 KiB) Viewed 4066 times
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Thud   100 MW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Thud » Dec 04 2009 9:25am

Looks like we have a 3rd, Welcome LFP!

Miles, Are you building a motor?

Roll call: every one/anyone who wants to build a motor chime in. what do you need?

I did finish that eddy brake, But I kinda over tested it- dynoing my lathe. :lol: (melted the glue holding the rotor assembly togeter)lathe-1 dyno-0.

I plan to build a reasonably sized unit for testing my motors, so that is an option.

Let the debate begin on testing parameters
get some......

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Miles » Dec 04 2009 9:40am

I'm not sure we need to test efficiency directly for the challenge?

If you achieve the highest sustainable specific torque, that will be largely due to having the best efficiency, I would have thought?

It would certainly be good to have the data. I'm not sure efficiency needs to be a challenge parameter, though..?

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Miles » Dec 04 2009 10:01am

fechter wrote: Here's an interesting motor design: http://www.evilmadscientist.com/article ... polarMotor
Thanks for that. I love it :D

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Malcolm   10 kW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Malcolm » Dec 04 2009 11:15am

I might just stand a chance of competing if you change the challenge parameter to "number of motors built in five minutes".

I just built two of the homopolar motors. Brilliant :D

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etard   1 MW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by etard » Dec 04 2009 3:36pm

Why can't we test it the same way the rc guys do and just set a limit on rpm/volt? A simple test stand with a digital weight scale to measure the pull of the prop for 30 minutes. I also am throwing the hat in the ring simply because I want to learn more about the science and tolerances of these motors. I just want to keep this fun, we font need to get hung up on rules and cheating and loopholes, rather we should be a community that shares and gives good ribbings.

We should also standardize the controller to be used for testing. We also need somebody to come forward who knows what they are doing to set out the rules in stone and volunteer to test and devise the rig for testing. Next all entrants chip in for the test rig and send the motor along with payment for return shipping. I think we need 10 entrants to make this interesting and then set a date in the not too distant future.

John,
I think the weight limit is fair, it's just that you are trying to build a train motor and the rest of us would like to build a BICYCLE motor. :lol: Maybe we can set a secondary test that will award the entrant with most power so that larger motors will win this shootout?
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Thanks to Justin @ http://www.ebike.ca He brings the soul to ES

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Miles » Dec 04 2009 3:47pm

etard wrote:Why can't we test it the same way the rc guys do and just set a limit on rpm/volt?
Hi etard,

What's that to do with?

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by etard » Dec 04 2009 6:07pm

Miles,
Nevermind, that's gonna be a measurement of thrust and not really comparable to our purposes. I was mostly pointing out a method already in use.

I might just have a go at rebuilding my Hacker motor and submitting that. I wanted to delta/wye it anyway. Is that permissable? Or what if I overbuilt it with better and bigger bearings, and a stouter shaft with better magnets, maybe add sensors do you guys have any objections to this approach?
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Thanks to Justin @ http://www.ebike.ca He brings the soul to ES

John in CR   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by John in CR » Dec 04 2009 6:49pm

etard wrote:John,
I think the weight limit is fair, it's just that you are trying to build a train motor and the rest of us would like to build a BICYCLE motor. :lol: Maybe we can set a secondary test that will award the entrant with most power so that larger motors will win this shootout?
Etard,
No, not a train motor...motorcycle motor maybe. :mrgreen: My advantage is the lack of e-bike rules here in Costa Rica, so all I need is pedals and it's legally a bike as long as it doesn't have a piston displacement > 49cc. I have no interest in electric motors with pistons.

Miles,
Won't a larger diameter result in greater torque for a given weight more than higher efficiency would? If it's not as efficient then it just needs better cooling.

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Miles » Dec 04 2009 7:30pm

John in CR wrote:Miles,
Won't a larger diameter result in greater torque for a given weight more than higher efficiency would? If it's not as efficient then it just needs better cooling.
The dyno and the scales will be the judge of that.......... :)

Certainly, you'll get higher sustainable torque level through a better heat dissipation rate.

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enoob   1 kW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by enoob » Dec 04 2009 8:40pm

Miles wrote:
4Nm of continuous rated torque per kg of motor weight - passive cooling only - for a motor weighing under 3 kg?
miles correct me if im wrong but i think what he wanted to start was a collaborative effort among those trying this with the end result of moving ebiking in general along.

it makes for a good target . and rather than making it a contest to see who is the best id rather see it as a more of a club . you get in "the club" by meeting the challenge as laid out and using this forum and open source to design and build a motor . if it makes 4nm of torque per kg of motor weight your in.

whomever makes the bestest most powerfulest one will most likely show itself without alot of testing and judging. i suspect. and i would have no problem copying that design for my own sick and evil purpose.

Other than a CA to see whats happening when i ride and sending one to thud (still not kidding T) i consider the best "test" to be real world. bolt it to a bike ride and see what happens. bench testing only tells you what happens on the bench not to say i wont bench test BUT how fragile is it ? 98.9 percent efficient and 20Nm per pound is great and all but what if the first bump in the road or the kick stand melting through ashphalt tips the bike and the motor bends ? wheres your efficiency then huh ?

i want some power . i want it to last more than 2 rides AND i want to be able to say its mine or copy it . wont be able to do any of those without seeing it on a bike or 3 for a month or 3
M.E.N.S ex pres and charter member.

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Thud   100 MW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Thud » Dec 04 2009 11:10pm

I am building a dyno.
#1 to get some #s from for compairison.
#2 we got 8 inches of snow last night. Its officaly building season.
#3 I am a tech geek who thinks having a dyno would be cool.
I have a laser tach on the way. touqe will be measured in ft pounds.
I am thinking an infra-red thermometer might be a nice add on to keep from smoking a motor on the dyno.


I will be happy to test motors & video the process.

I need some refinment on the eddy brake concept to be able to adjuste the brake effect. a simple brake dyno would be much easyer to fab.
keep an eye on the mule1.1 thread
I hope to have a nice addition by sunday 8)
get some......

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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 04 2009 11:24pm

That's awesome news Thud!

Put the magnets out at a big radius, then you can control torque by moving the aluminum sheet closer or further away. A little arm poking off the side of the sheet sitting on a digital scale will be all it takes to accurately measure torque.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by enoob » Dec 05 2009 12:17am

yee haww.

i knew i liked you T.

makin lemonade baby.

the name hencforth will be- TTM1EBD = Thuds Test Mule 1 Eddy Brake Dyno.

or TED for short. Thuds Eddybrake Dyno

cant wait to see my motor getting shafted by TED
M.E.N.S ex pres and charter member.

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: ES DIY Motor Challenge (was "competition")

Post by Miles » Dec 05 2009 1:58am

Thud wrote: I will be happy to test motors & video the process.
Great! Thanks T. That's one problem solved :D

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