Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

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M0tWat   1 mW

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Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by M0tWat » Jan 07 2020 8:04am

Hello,

I'm looking for a motor for an electric go-kart project (2kW, at least) and I'm trying to find one that isn't too expensive, but isn't junk either. After researching for about a week, I have found two options:

either a cheap, "no-name" motor that generally comes in two shape variants: https://www.amazon.de/Mach1-Motor-Brushless-1800Watt-Elektro/dp/B07YSG7Q5G/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&dchild=1&keywords=mach1+elektro+motor+dc&qid=1578400253&sr=8-2-fkmr1 and https://www.amazon.de/Mophorn-Permanent-Hochgeschwindigkeit-niederige-Karting/dp/B07Q5YV3G9/ref=sr_1_9?__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&keywords=elektromotor+dc&qid=1578400242&sr=8-9

OR a Motenergy motor (the cheapest I have found yet is https://www.evdrives.com/product_p/mot-me0907.htm

This raises two questions in my mind:
1. Are there really no other motors available in this price range, or have I not looked well enough?
2. Are there any good suppliers of electric motors in Europe, so that I could avoid high postage fees? I have found a few (https://www.kit-elec-shop.com/fr/112-moteurs-electriques?order=product.price.asc https://evea-kartmasters.fr/en/35-synchronous-motors?orderby=price&orderway=asc https://eveurope.eu/en/product-category/motoren-en/brushed-dc-motors/), but their selection isn't very impressive and/or they only sell pricier models. I could also buy one from America, but that entails very high postage (almost 1/3 the price of the motor). Are there any other options?

Thanks!
MotWat

SlowCo   100 kW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by SlowCo » Jan 07 2020 9:07am

The best I found on AliExpress that could match your requirements is the 3kW version of the motor you linked to:
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32956364 ... 2e0en6kGy9
If you choose to let them ship from the UK then shipping and taxes are included in the price. Ask them for a foot throttle instead of a hand throttle if possible.

And build or buy a battery pack that can keep up with the amp draw of the controller:
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/40004532 ... 2e0eKJAeZE (no idea on taxes for this pack to EU, ask them)

john61ct   1 GW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by john61ct » Jan 08 2020 10:50am


SlowCo wrote:The best I found on AliExpress that could match your requirements is the 3kW version of the motor you linked to:
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32956364 ... 2e0en6kGy9
Max torque only 5.4N.m ?

how would that be possible?

M0tWat   1 mW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by M0tWat » Jan 08 2020 3:35pm

john61ct wrote:
Jan 08 2020 10:50am
SlowCo wrote:The best I found on AliExpress that could match your requirements is the 3kW version of the motor you linked to:
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32956364 ... 2e0en6kGy9
Max torque only 5.4N.m ?

how would that be possible?
Isn't that to be expected, considering 3 kW of power and 4900 RPM? (https://planetcalc.com/1908/)

Thanks, slowco, I haven't seen a 3 kW version of that motor yet. I am a bit vary, because 230$ for motor, controller and accessories seems a little too good to be true.

I just found out about Goldenmotor and its distributors. They have a 3kW motor that would suit my requirements. One of the distributors is https://goldenmotor.ua/en/. Has anyone heard of them? I'm cautious to buy from them, as I cannot find any outside information about the company

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 08 2020 5:58pm

Motenergy make some really good motors, if its within your budget (with a decent controller) that'd be a monster on a gocart...

Golden motors make some knockoffs of the motenergy - a bit cheaper, and lower quality as a result, but still 'good enough' for a lot of applications. The 3kw motor they offer was the motor used in the earliest version of the surron e-motorbike. it was dropped for their own design which handles a lot more power for the same form factor. Surron do sell their own power systems too - not sure on price but might be worth a look.


Some other vendors to investigate:
LMX motorbikes (they sell their own motor used on their bikes) - based in France
QS motors (china based) have some mid drives that get good reviews, might be out of the price range though

I'd reccomend either motenergy or the surron motors over the cheaper ones you linked too - they are 'ok' at best - they'll do the job but wont even come close to the performance /power handling of even the smallest of the motenergy motors.

john61ct   1 GW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by john61ct » Jan 08 2020 10:46pm


M0tWat wrote:
john61ct wrote:
Jan 08 2020 10:50am
SlowCo wrote:The best I found on AliExpress that could match your requirements is the 3kW version of the motor you linked to:
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32956364 ... 2e0en6kGy9
Max torque only 5.4N.m ?

how would that be possible?
Isn't that to be expected, considering 3 kW of power and 4900 RPM? (https://planetcalc.com/1908/)
Screenshot_20200108-224541.jpg
Screenshot_20200108-224541.jpg (33.58 KiB) Viewed 1164 times

Arimhan   1 mW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by Arimhan » Jan 09 2020 2:17am

You've inputed 3000kw instead of 3kw

john61ct   1 GW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by john61ct » Jan 09 2020 6:44am

Aha, tx.

But in looking to get the most out of a Rohloff 14-speed Speedhub

rated around 130 N.m

a Cyclone 3Kw motor, or maybe the

Cyclone 4/4.8 kW Coaxial Mid Drive

seem well matched.

Are the torque numbers being measured completely differently?

Arimhan   1 mW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by Arimhan » Jan 09 2020 6:53am

They are measured the same way but the 5.4 for the motor is only if you use a 1:1 direct transmission between the two.
If you use a 10:1 the torque at the speehub will be 54Nm

john61ct   1 GW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by john61ct » Jan 09 2020 7:53am

Well to start with, apples to apples just looking at the motor.

I did not realize that the 130 number was **that** crazy high that it could be 26x the torque of another motor considered adequate for other use cases.

Especially in the 2kW ballpark?

I thought the 130 boundary was maybe being limited too much.

Obviously I'm missing some understanding in the relationship between kW power and the maximum torque available.

M0tWat   1 mW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by M0tWat » Jan 13 2020 7:36pm

john61ct, maybe this will be of help? https://youtu.be/SrPHQh-M3pM?t=66

Thank you very much for your suggestions, sn0wchyld! I couldn't find any options to buy separate motors from Sur-ron, unfortunately. But the other manufacturers have some interesting products...

I spent the last few days researching all the other available options. The choices below are what I'm now considering and I would be glad if I could get some tips from you guys. Please keep in mind that I'm trying to keep my project in the 1000€ range, more or less (about $1100).

By the way, my goal is to get the most out of the motor/controller (while staying in safe limits, as I wouldn't like to break/overheat anything). This means that I don't care all too much about ride time. 5-10 minutes would be enough. Would it be possible to build a kart using appropriate batteries (i.e. lithium) that would allow me to reach that goal within my budget? My plan is to spend about $200/250 on batteries and around $200 for a used/old but functional frame. Is that realistic, considering the options below?

I looked into LMX and found this: https://lmxbikes.com/en/drivetrain/138- ... -2018.html Could be a good deal, but can't find any info on torque and voltage. Price with shipping: $345

Other motors (shipping included in price):
- Goldenmotor 3kW for $383 (https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm)
- Motenergy ME0909 brushed for $565.19 (https://www.electricmotorsport.com/me09 ... hp-pk.html)
- Goldenmotor 5kW for $566 (https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm)
- QS Motor 138 3kW with controller for $576 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000009 ... 49c37rAyto)
- Mars (Motenergy?) 0907 brushless for $584 (https://kellycontroller.com/shop/mars-0907/)

And then I need to pick a controller to go along with one of those. Would all of these be able to handle all of the above motors - as long as the motor type (brushed/brushless) is correct? (again, shipping prices included)
-KBS-E – Mini Brushless Motor Controller – 48V, 110A $211.60 (https://kellycontroller.com/shop/kbs-e/ ... rrent=110a)
- KBL – General Brushless Motor Controller with Regen 48V, 150A $256.88 (https://kellycontroller.com/shop/kbl/?a ... rrent=150a)
- Curtis 48V 130A (1 minute rating) $316.47 (https://www.tecknowledgey.com/curtis-12 ... oller.html)
- Goldenmotor VEC200 for their 3kW motor $320 (https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm)
- Goldenmotor VEC300 for their 5kW motor $512 (https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm)

According to a Goldenmotor rep, it should be possible to lower the shipping prices a little - by $30 or so. However, the programming cable they sell costs $60 + shipping, while (as far as I know) Kelly controllers can be programmed using a cheap cable or Bluetooth dongle - which is an additional price advantage, as I'd surely like to be able to change controller parameters in the future.

Which combination of motor and controller would you consider to be the best option, keeping in mind what I'm planning to do?

And finally... some of these motors are available as a 72V version. I figured that they probably are not worth it, because I'd have to buy and put more batteries in series (compared to 48V) to achieve that voltage and that would increase the price significantly, especially when going for lithium batteries. Am I correct in that assumption?

Thank you so much for reading through all this and thank you in advance for any advice!

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 14 2020 12:17am

M0tWat wrote:
Jan 13 2020 7:36pm
john61ct, maybe this will be of help? https://youtu.be/SrPHQh-M3pM?t=66

Thank you very much for your suggestions, sn0wchyld! I couldn't find any options to buy separate motors from Sur-ron, unfortunately. But the other manufacturers have some interesting products...

I spent the last few days researching all the other available options. The choices below are what I'm now considering and I would be glad if I could get some tips from you guys. Please keep in mind that I'm trying to keep my project in the 1000€ range, more or less (about $1100).

By the way, my goal is to get the most out of the motor/controller (while staying in safe limits, as I wouldn't like to break/overheat anything). This means that I don't care all too much about ride time. 5-10 minutes would be enough. Would it be possible to build a kart using appropriate batteries (i.e. lithium) that would allow me to reach that goal within my budget? My plan is to spend about $200/250 on batteries and around $200 for a used/old but functional frame. Is that realistic, considering the options below?

I looked into LMX and found this: https://lmxbikes.com/en/drivetrain/138- ... -2018.html Could be a good deal, but can't find any info on torque and voltage. Price with shipping: $345

Other motors (shipping included in price):
- Goldenmotor 3kW for $383 (https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm)
- Motenergy ME0909 brushed for $565.19 (https://www.electricmotorsport.com/me09 ... hp-pk.html)
- Goldenmotor 5kW for $566 (https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm)
- QS Motor 138 3kW with controller for $576 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000009 ... 49c37rAyto)
- Mars (Motenergy?) 0907 brushless for $584 (https://kellycontroller.com/shop/mars-0907/)

And then I need to pick a controller to go along with one of those. Would all of these be able to handle all of the above motors - as long as the motor type (brushed/brushless) is correct? (again, shipping prices included)
-KBS-E – Mini Brushless Motor Controller – 48V, 110A $211.60 (https://kellycontroller.com/shop/kbs-e/ ... rrent=110a)
- KBL – General Brushless Motor Controller with Regen 48V, 150A $256.88 (https://kellycontroller.com/shop/kbl/?a ... rrent=150a)
- Curtis 48V 130A (1 minute rating) $316.47 (https://www.tecknowledgey.com/curtis-12 ... oller.html)
- Goldenmotor VEC200 for their 3kW motor $320 (https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm)
- Goldenmotor VEC300 for their 5kW motor $512 (https://www.goldenmotor.com/frame-bldcmotor.htm)

According to a Goldenmotor rep, it should be possible to lower the shipping prices a little - by $30 or so. However, the programming cable they sell costs $60 + shipping, while (as far as I know) Kelly controllers can be programmed using a cheap cable or Bluetooth dongle - which is an additional price advantage, as I'd surely like to be able to change controller parameters in the future.

Which combination of motor and controller would you consider to be the best option, keeping in mind what I'm planning to do?

And finally... some of these motors are available as a 72V version. I figured that they probably are not worth it, because I'd have to buy and put more batteries in series (compared to 48V) to achieve that voltage and that would increase the price significantly, especially when going for lithium batteries. Am I correct in that assumption?

Thank you so much for reading through all this and thank you in advance for any advice!
at your power requirements the lmx motor (can be had from other vendors too) or the 3kw golden will be a good option. the other motors listed are capable of far more power... the motenergies are 5kw continuous, and not as 'optimistically' rated as others like the goldens are. Mars (as you suspect) is the same as motenergy (afaik) - i think its the US vs international arm or similar.

controller wise - a bit tougher. I haven't used the ones your suggesting. Two options on ES are the power velocity controllers (chinese based but with some nice advancements and addons) and the nuke controllers from Vasili in russia. I've still not had the chance to use my nuke controller yet but form all reports they're very good, and easy/safe to program (good self protection to prevent accidents) - the 12 fet would be a pretty good option, though the 6 fet may be enough for your power requirements (the low phase current may mean too bigger hit to your torque, given torque is directly proportional to your phase amps).

viewtopic.php?p=1521490#p1521490
viewtopic.php?p=1520849#p1520849

M0tWat   1 mW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by M0tWat » Jan 15 2020 4:17pm

Thanks once again!

So you're saying that at this price range there's no way I could get close to using a Motenergy motor's full potential, even if only for a few minutes? If so, would I be able to get the most out of the 3kW golden? Also, do you have any tips on the 48V vs 72V choice?

Both Power velocity and Nucular controllers look interesting. But I would have to wait for at least 4 months before a Nucular ships, wouldn't I? (https://nucular.tech/#rec101723173) I don't have that much time, unfortunately.

SlowCo   100 kW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by SlowCo » Jan 16 2020 1:10pm

M0tWat wrote:
Jan 08 2020 3:35pm

Thanks, slowco, I haven't seen a 3 kW version of that motor yet. I am a bit vary, because 230$ for motor, controller and accessories seems a little too good to be true.
The seem to work fine:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=100331&start=25

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=101583

But if you want to spend much more on a motor and controller and have little money left for a tiny battery so you can only enjoy it for less then 5 minutes, it's your choice... :roll:

larsb   1 MW

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Re: Electric motors in the 100-500€ range and buying them in Europe

Post by larsb » Jan 16 2020 2:23pm

QS 138 70h 3000w mid drive kit for the win!

Can recommend this motor/controller combination, have about 15000-20000 kms driven so far . Why buy some piece of poor quality sh*t? You’ll regret it.

The QS motor is in your price range and you’ll certainly get enough power, i’m running it at 20kW max input currently. Lots of data here: https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 30&t=93627

Regarding battery voltage: 72v is not necessarily more or less expensive than 48V - what’s costs is the total power and capacity you choose, the voltage is mostly an arrangement of batteries within the pack.
Ride on!

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