Thoughts on throttle taming?..

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Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by webstaff » Nov 25 2016 7:50am

I just wanted to ask for peoples thoughts on throttle taming on higher power ebikes..
And where to spend my money next..

This is the bike I'm bothered about :)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=81898

It's in the process of being chopped up to form a battery box for an 18650 20AH pack as it was only ever thrown together but is ran great..
I also built up a spare as I have a few of the GNG kits and also wanted to have a play with lasercut housings as I have a laser cutter to hand at the moment that I just rebuilt..
WhatsApp Image 2016-11-21 at 13.06.28.jpeg
Spare bike
But the throttle on the standard controller is to aggressive.. (speed vs power) these are speed based from GNG I think and it's just a right handful. :D
And I think it's causing a multitude of issues not having that fine control to be able to set off at lower speeds.. More so on that cheaper spare bike but both bikes have similar issues with high wear rates and aggressive throttles..
So new controller with power instead of speed based throttle.. or CA so I can use their software / hardware interface to achieve the same throttle effect?
Or both :)
I did look into POTs on the throttle control lines but thats just a PITA as you loose out somewhere or you start getting into complicated circuits/setups or arduino's but again just seems pointless and overly complicated when existing options would have other benefits..
So what's your thoughts
Maybe you know of a cheap way to achieve what i'm after?

All the best Webstaff

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Ykick » Nov 25 2016 8:19am

CAV3 should provide the capability to tweak whatever throttle ramp up you want/need? You could also create 3 different profiles for soft, medium and hard power/throttle responses?

Edward Lyen built me a very simple circuit which installed in-between throttle signal and slows the speed (ramp) which the throttle signal is applied. Trouble is, that circuit also slows down the “off” throttle signal so that simple circuit may just shift your problem to different issue of throttle response?
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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by webstaff » Nov 26 2016 6:36am

Ykick thanks for the quick reply,
Yeah I did wonder about that with regards to delaying the signal, I take it then with your mod/circuit after you throttle off you have to wait for the throttle to actually drop then.. That might be a slight issue if you forgot and we're close to say a car :D hehe

As I say with regards to a simple circuit I was thinking more of going for an exponential curve on the throttle or at least a wide band on the slow range then narrow banding for say jump to 50% and jump to 100% close to the end of the throttle pull but as I say it gets complicated quickly at which point its easier to do in software and at that point you might as well buy off the shelf stuff as I have better things to do with my time than reinvent the wheel ;)

Guess it's a CAV3 then with speed sensor and shunt on order next :)
Wheres best place to order for for UK shipping, any thoughts?

would there be anything to gain with changing the controller? (like integrated shunt?)

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Ykick » Nov 26 2016 8:55am

webstaff wrote:Ykick thanks for the quick reply,
Yeah I did wonder about that with regards to delaying the signal, I take it then with your mod/circuit after you throttle off you have to wait for the throttle to actually drop then.. That might be a slight issue if you forgot and we're close to say a car :D hehe

As I say with regards to a simple circuit I was thinking more of going for an exponential curve on the throttle or at least a wide band on the slow range then narrow banding for say jump to 50% and jump to 100% close to the end of the throttle pull but as I say it gets complicated quickly at which point its easier to do in software and at that point you might as well buy off the shelf stuff as I have better things to do with my time than reinvent the wheel ;)

Guess it's a CAV3 then with speed sensor and shunt on order next :)
Wheres best place to order for for UK shipping, any thoughts?

would there be anything to gain with changing the controller? (like integrated shunt?)
You're welcome and yes, that’s how it “behaves” - throttle release (ramp down) at the same slower rate that it climbs (ramp up). That in mind, brake cutouts will immediately cut throttle.

Decent solder jockey should be able to insert DP CAV3 using most any controller battery-controller (-) neg internal shunt.

Sorry, I dunno a good source for UK shipping but here’s a list of dealers - http://www.ebikes.ca/dealers.html

This guy in Germany posts frequently and I’ve noticed some cool CA supporting products - http://www.ebike-solutions.de/

All the best...
Talent must not be wasted.... Those who have talent must hug it, embrace it, nurture it and share it lest it be taken away from you as fast as it was loaned to you.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Alan B » Nov 26 2016 11:24am

The best throttle control is torque throttle. The better controllers have that standard. The usual PWM throttles are simple and cheap to program in the controller but produce jerky response at medium and high power.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by fechter » Nov 26 2016 12:29pm

This circuit seemed to work well for a lot of people:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... ttle+tamer

Personally, I'd go for a different controller but that would cost more.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by nutnspecial » Nov 26 2016 12:56pm

I didn't think many people use the throttle tamer anymore?
OP do you have a partial twist throttle and a 3spd switch?
Imo for high power you might not be happy with just adding on the CA to simulate torque throttle. At least for single reduction maybe. And I have heard torque controllers like kelly are more 'like golf cart' control? idk

3.5kw has the potential to be pretty 'rammy' on a bike's drivetrain.
Also, try turning down phase amps if you can, or try dropping some voltage?

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Storapa » Nov 27 2016 3:16am

Webstaff,

If you are looking for a CA V3, try these guys. They are UK based.

http://www.jozztek.com/shop/meter-gauge ... alyst.html

I ordered one a week or so back. It was the best price on this side of the pond and arrived within 24 hours.
Daily machine. - Giant Toughroad, Mac 8T, Thun torque sensor, Phase Runner, CA V3
Scratch built machine - Crystalyte HS 3540, 12 fet IRFB4110 Infineon controller, CA V3, 74v - 20Ah Lipo battery pack. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=75457

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by rogervize » Dec 01 2016 11:37pm

The electric motor has inherently greater torque at low RPMs.
This causes the jerkiness you refer to... since only low torque is required from starting off.
As speed builds you need more torque to overcome rolling resistance and wind.
So the controller needs to factor in the speed or at least incorporate a soft start in the throttle algorithm.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Overclocker » Dec 02 2016 12:20am

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1172502

Image

small $35 controller. always adds a smooth ramp-up to your throttle input. the side effect of which is that you don't get instant power, it always goes through the ramp-up which takes about 1.5 seconds

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by rogervize » Dec 02 2016 1:30am

Anything that uses a time delay is 'sleazy'..
A ramp is good but that's part of what a throttle is anyway.
The best way to 'soften' the throttle is to incorporate road speed into the algorithm.
Better still some feed-back from an accelerometer... since acceleration is what is ultimately required.
Something like artificial inertia such as used in model railway locos would be good also.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Alan B » Dec 02 2016 11:53am

The best way to tame the throttle is to use a torque proportional throttle. Give a little throttle, get a little torque.

The simple PWM throttles cause tremendous torque spikes on powerful setups. It is cheap and simple, not good.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by fechter » Dec 02 2016 7:56pm

Alan B wrote:The best way to tame the throttle is to use a torque proportional throttle. Give a little throttle, get a little torque.
The simple PWM throttles cause tremendous torque spikes on powerful setups. It is cheap and simple, not good.
I agree. With a torque command throttle, you don't need any taming. You have to go full throttle to get full torque. With cheapo controllers, a small but sudden throttle increase can produce maximum power.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by rogervize » Dec 09 2016 5:23am

Trouble is... a small amount of torque at low revs causes much greater acceleration than the same torque at higher speed

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Alan B » Dec 09 2016 6:43am

rogervize wrote:Trouble is... a small amount of torque at low revs causes much greater acceleration than the same torque at higher speed
Newton's Law

http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/physics/rot/node5.html

equation 11 shows that rotational acceleration times rotational mass equals torque. Rotational velocity doesn't enter into it. The rotational acceleration is affected by the rotational mass and the torque.

This is the rotational equivalent to the linear: force = mass times acceleration. The acceleration is affected by the force and mass of the system, not the velocity.

Torque is proportional to motor current. So the trick is to make the throttle control the motor current.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by rogervize » Dec 10 2016 4:31am

At low road speed the amount of torque required for acceleration is less than the torque required at higher speed for the same acceleration.
Reason is .. at higher speed more force/torque is required to overcome wind and rolling resistance... leaving less torque available for acceleration.
I am not in conflict with Newton...

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Alan B » Dec 11 2016 12:17am

How fast are you riding?

Ability to accelerate does decrease with speed, but not primarily due to rolling resistance or aerodynamics at ebike speeds. The back EMF (due to increased speed) reduces the ability to drive motor current and therefore generate torque. So as speed increases the available maximum torque falls off. The controller's algorithms for controlling torque (throttle mapping) can deal with this in different ways, but there is far more torque available at low speed than at high speed due to this power conversion in the controller. This occurs even in a frictionless ebike.

But the overall expectation of the user with a torque throttle is met, this is considered normal for vehicle controls. Unlike the PWM (voltage) type throttles that are very jerky and hard to control on a powerful ebike.

Which torque mode controllers have you worked with? The several I've tried have been vastly better than the usual PWM (voltage) type controllers.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Ecyclist » Dec 11 2016 7:51pm

Alan B wrote:How fast are you riding?

Ability to accelerate does decrease with speed, but not primarily due to rolling resistance or aerodynamics at ebike speeds. The back EMF (due to increased speed) reduces the ability to drive motor current and therefore generate torque. So as speed increases the available maximum torque falls off. The controller's algorithms for controlling torque (throttle mapping) can deal with this in different ways, but there is far more torque available at low speed than at high speed due to this power conversion in the controller. This occurs even in a frictionless ebike.

But the overall expectation of the user with a torque throttle is met, this is considered normal for vehicle controls. Unlike the PWM (voltage) type throttles that are very jerky and hard to control on a powerful ebike.

Which torque mode controllers have you worked with? The several I've tried have been vastly better than the usual PWM (voltage) type controllers.
On my first build I used CA3 as a torque controller and it works OK, but I would like to run my second build without CA and instead use torque controller.
I'm hoping that my next build will be more streamlined.
Can you share you source and experience with torque controllers and different kind of throttles that you used?
This will help a ton.
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Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Alan B » Dec 12 2016 12:33am

The CAv3 is a very sophisticated piece of gear, and I own quite a few. They do go a long way towards "throttle taming".

It is not capable of "torque throttle" in any configuration that I am aware of.

It can be configured for "battery current" or "battery power" control, but that's not the same. It is a worthwhile improvement in control.

The controllers that I've used on ebikes that have "torque throttle" capability are the Sabvoton and the PhaseRunner. I have test driven various models of Zero electric motorcycles which also have torque control mode throttles, most likely using Sevcon controllers.

I would recommend the PhaseRunner as the best for most ebike applications.

My most recent experience with PhaseRunners is on the "Bonanza Bulldozer" which is documented in a thread linked in my signature, where I used a pair of PhaseRunners for 2wd operation on a mountain bike. The performance and control are excellent.

Hopefully we will see more "torque mode" controllers, but at the moment the PhaseRunner is probably the best game in town for ebikes that I'm aware of.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by amberwolf » Dec 12 2016 1:21am

Alan B wrote:The controllers that I've used on ebikes that have "torque throttle" capability are the Sabvoton and the PhaseRunner. I have test driven various models of Zero electric motorcycles which also have torque control mode throttles, most likely using Sevcon controllers.
If building your own, the Lebowski controller brain chip does torque throttle, too, AFAI have been able to find out (haven't actually found a specific "feature list" so I am still reading every thread about the various builds of it to find out what I can).

Hopefully we will see more "torque mode" controllers, but at the moment the PhaseRunner is probably the best game in town for ebikes that I'm aware of.
AFAICT, yes, as long as you have the budget for it. ;)

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by rogervize » Dec 12 2016 4:46am

Yes Alan B.. you are correct.. and the characteristic tapering of winding current aggravates the problem.
I was thinking of my battery as a current source which would be true if it is sufficiently high in voltage to overcome the motor internally generated volts.
My project uses a car alternator and if I was clever I would control the field current (analog/linear) rather than just turning it off or on.
This would enable control of flux and give additional fine control over torque.
Otherwise I would suggest a current feed-back loop to achieve current drive behavior.
Not sure how ev manufacturers deal with heat losses at low RPM/high torque conditions... this would seem to me a big issue.
I'm sure that a mechanical gearbox/torque-converter is needed or else multiple windings with torque sensing.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Alan B » Dec 12 2016 10:59am

Controllers that have Torque Mode Control are generally already measuring actual motor current, so they have actual torque information to feed back on and use to tame the throttle. How they map the available torque vs the throttle position and speed determines the system response. Physics determines the amount of torque available at different speeds, from semiconductor limited at low speed to voltage limited at high speed. They can do different mapping in between. One thing a few of them do is to add speed to the mapping so that dramatic changes in load doesn't spin the wheel up to maximum, which otherwise may occur when the wheel leaves the ground or hits some ice. This is often referred to as "torque plus speed control" where the torque control generally dominates but under low loading conditions the speed control element reduces spin-up.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by rogervize » Dec 12 2016 5:32pm

Thanks Alan B.. Have you seen these algorithms executed using analog with combinational logic?
I am driving the windings at base frequency in the order of the phases. My motor/alternator is 14 pole.
Have you any ideas on using a car alternator for this purpose?
My plan is to use a friction drive to the rear wheel on bicycle. The drive disc is 160mm.
I am making a separate disc with magnets placed to provide position sensing.
...

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Alan B » Dec 12 2016 6:30pm

rogervize wrote:Thanks Alan B.. Have you seen these algorithms executed using analog with combinational logic?
I am driving the windings at base frequency in the order of the phases. My motor/alternator is 14 pole.
Have you any ideas on using a car alternator for this purpose?
My plan is to use a friction drive to the rear wheel on bicycle. The drive disc is 160mm.
I am making a separate disc with magnets placed to provide position sensing.
...
I haven't seen that. ICs, micros or FPGAs are generally used. Motor current is generally sensed with current transformers.

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Re: Thoughts on throttle taming?..

Post by Ecyclist » Dec 13 2016 12:24am

Alan B wrote:The CAv3 is a very sophisticated piece of gear, and I own quite a few. They do go a long way towards "throttle taming".

It is not capable of "torque throttle" in any configuration that I am aware of.

It can be configured for "battery current" or "battery power" control, but that's not the same. It is a worthwhile improvement in control.

The controllers that I've used on ebikes that have "torque throttle" capability are the Sabvoton and the PhaseRunner. I have test driven various models of Zero electric motorcycles which also have torque control mode throttles, most likely using Sevcon controllers.

I would recommend the PhaseRunner as the best for most ebike applications.

My most recent experience with PhaseRunners is on the "Bonanza Bulldozer" which is documented in a thread linked in my signature, where I used a pair of PhaseRunners for 2wd operation on a mountain bike. The performance and control are excellent.

Hopefully we will see more "torque mode" controllers, but at the moment the PhaseRunner is probably the best game in town for ebikes that I'm aware of.
Thank you for your quick reply and recommendation. I really appreciate it. It looks like the PhaseRunner is what I was looking for.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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