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Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jun 25 2015 3:26am
by mchlpeel
Just thought Id share some info from another thread
The larger phase wires should be fine up to 60A, just as a guess. I just cut the original ~16ga. ones i had about an inch out of the axle and replaced with 12 gauge. Works great for me - haven't noticed any warmth, despite the fact that i've been torturing the **** out of this motor for a while :lol:
That answers the 3mm question

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jun 30 2015 7:38am
by mchlpeel
So,

I have been reviewing the route to and from work. It involves one steep hill. Does anyone think this will pose a problem with my motor setup. (50v at 60Amps max)

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jun 30 2015 10:07am
by wesnewell
A 13% grade of less than a mile should not present a problem for most motors.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jun 30 2015 10:13am
by spinningmagnets
Get a temp sensor for it because of the steep hill. If it is over 200F / 93C when you reach the top (in the warm summer months), i would say it is at its heat limit. If the motor is warmer then that and survived, count yourself as lucky. Perhaps ventilate the side-plates if its running above that?

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jun 30 2015 10:37am
by mchlpeel
I intend to have my motor fitted with a Temp sensor so overheating should be taken care of.

BTW

Got my self a new Full suspension mountain bike for the build.

Pictures to follow

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jun 30 2015 1:04pm
by mchlpeel
Image

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The front caliber is loose as I'm in the middle of swapping in a 200mm avid bb7 on the front and a 180mm on the back
I'm also changing the headset. Was going to just do bearings but a new one only cost £10 from Ali express.

Also bought a shock pump as its air suspension front and back.

Gonna stick on some mudguards and Schwalbe marathon plus tour tires on.

Bike cost £200 on eBay.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 01 2015 10:16am
by SprocketLocket
mchlpeel wrote: Right now the kit im thinking about is the following:
Leaf motor 26" 1500w rear (leafbike)
22.1AH 25R Triangle + charger from (Em3EV)
Half twist throttle and ebrake sensor (Em3EV)
18 Fet controller (Em3EV)
CA V3 (Em3EV)
Grin Tech Rev 4 Torque arm (Em3EV)
Am I missing anything?

[snip]

As I was looking for a plug and play setup does anybody have an idea about what sort of connectors the Leaf motor comes with and if EM3EV can create matching connectors or visa versa?
+1/Bump, I have the same questions.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 01 2015 10:19am
by 1KW
i want the leaf motor 1500w also...since you can keep the volts low, less battery to carry.

however its like 330 usd shipped...which is the same price for a mxus v2 :twisted:

there are a bunch of vendors selling the 1500w motor, but none have graphs and i doubt it is the same motor as far as efficiency and lams go.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 01 2015 1:42pm
by mchlpeel
The motor with the 90% efficiency that Neptronix is pioneering is from http://www.leafbike.com
They also provide dyno sheets.

As for the motor connectors

They are supplied with 3mm phase wires with bullets on the end. It also has a large white connector which plugs straight into em3ev controller (hall sensors and thermistor)

Not got the motor yet it's just information gleaned from other sources during my research.

PS

Where can you get a mxus3000 for the same price as the leaf?

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 01 2015 2:42pm
by markz
I bought mine right from manufacturer, but people sell them on this website too.
Check out the "For Sale" forum, snatch a new one up for $300-$350 in a rim.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 01 2015 2:55pm
by mchlpeel
I think the mxus motor would require a lot more power than the leaf to be efficient. I intend to have 3000w peaks. I can't imagine this would be very efficient on the mxus?

If I ran a leaf and a mxus on 50v 60a what would be the outcome?

I know the leaf motors efficiency is around 90% at 30mph and around 80% wot
Would the mxus perform better or worse because I'm under powering it?

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 01 2015 3:13pm
by markz
ebikes.ca has a motor simulator, check out the mxus 4504, is 4T
@35, its 75%
@44, its 80%

66v, 40a Controller, 330LBS, flat, mxus 4504

The Good, sheds heat real well.
The Bad, heavy! real heavy

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 01 2015 3:24pm
by neptronix
mchlpeel wrote:I think the mxus motor would require a lot more power than the leaf to be efficient. I intend to have 3000w peaks. I can't imagine this would be very efficient on the mxus?

If I ran a leaf and a mxus on 50v 60a what would be the outcome?

I know the leaf motors efficiency is around 90% at 30mph and around 80% wot
Would the mxus perform better or worse because I'm under powering it?
I'd imagine that the mxus would be more efficient when you hit 3000W. At lower power, like doing 20-30mph, it should consume a little more energy.

Once you get into ~2500w or higher power input, the mxus will win out in efficiency by a significant margin. The leaf is very happy to do 2000w at ~87% efficiency. That's why i say it's best for 40mph riding.

The outcome of running a 3T MXUS ( fastest winding ) would be a lower top speed per volt, of course. On 46v nominal, the MXUS will be doing 35mph, whereas the Leaf ( default winding ) will do about 39mph.

Make sure to order a pair of torque arms. And there's no tolerance for loose fitting or hose clamped torque arms at power levels in the 2000w or above range. Consider taking some grin tech ( ebikes.ca ) torque arms and fashioning/buying/modifying some sort of square clamp if the bolt holes ( derailleur hanger / disc brake holes ) do not work on that muddyfox frame. There's certainly gonna be some fabrication to do to get this right.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 01 2015 3:56pm
by mchlpeel
Thanks for the info and mxus comparison

I think I will stick with the leaf as it makes more sense at my power levels

On another note. The leaf can be fitted with a cassette spline any idea what the max number of cogs that can be fitted in a standard width frame eg 7 speed?

As for torque arms I was thinking of a grin tech v4. I'm just assuming it will fit. I see what you mean about the square frame and round hose clamps. Maybe some sort of padding would do it.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 01 2015 4:06pm
by mchlpeel
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It shouldn't bs an issue hopefully if I attach the torque arm to the upper tube as it's actually round.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 01 2015 7:08pm
by neptronix
Padding and motion are the exact opposite of what you want in a torque arm. You want absolutely 0 motion, not even a millimeter. This is why hose clamps can suck.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 03 2015 1:37am
by SprocketLocket
mchlpeel wrote:They are supplied with 3mm phase wires with bullets on the end. It also has a large white connector which plugs straight into em3ev controller (hall sensors and thermistor)
Don't you mean 4mm? Shopping cart drop-downs refer to 4mm bullet connectors.
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route= ... duct_id=82
BTW, when the option to attach connectors says "including battery side" and "including motor side" in the drop-downs, is that a reference to people who are buying a battery or motor?

Noob question alert: How do you figure out which order to put the Phase and/or Hall Wires? Do you just need to try combinations randomly? I've been here almost a year and have not seen that answered. I found the below, but is it really going to be that complex?? Is there a shortcut or knowledgebase for Leafbike + Infineon?
"How to Determine the Wiring for a Brushless Motor"
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =16&t=3484

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 03 2015 2:03am
by mchlpeel
SprocketLocket wrote:Don't you mean 4mm? Shopping cart drop-downs refer to 4mm bullet connectors.
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route= ... duct_id=82
BTW, when the option to attach connectors says "including battery side" and "including motor side" in the drop-downs, is that a reference to people who are buying a battery or motor?
I meant the phase wires coming from the motor are 3mm wires. I dont know what size bullet connectors are on the end. You are correct that you can spec 4mm bullets coming from the controller to the motor (motor side).
The 2 bullet connectors meet in the middle and connect together by something?????

Unsure about the battery side bit.
SprocketLocket wrote:Noob question alert: How do you figure out which order to put the Phase and/or Hall Wires? Do you just need to try combinations randomly? I've been here almost a year and have not seen that answered. I found the below, but is it really going to be that complex?? Is there a shortcut or knowledgebase for Leafbike + Infineon?
"How to Determine the Wiring for a Brushless Motor"
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =16&t=3484
Good question. I assume the wires are colour coded but im not entirly sure. Hopefully one of the more experienced members will clear this up

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 03 2015 2:20am
by wesnewell
No, the phase wires are 3mm2, not 3mm. There's a big difference.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/awg-w ... d_731.html

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 03 2015 3:12am
by SprocketLocket
mchlpeel wrote: [...]
Grin Tech Rev 4 Torque arm (Em3EV)

Am I missing anything?

I intend to draw 60A continuous [...]
You scratch my back, I scratch yours. I realized those torque arms are sold as singles, not pairs.
From EV3EV's product page:
"Generally a single rear torque arm is sufficient, but for extreme applications, a second torque arm would be a useful addition."
From ebikes.ca:
Is one torque arm enough, or should I use two?
For the torque arms we make with the thick ¼" axle plate, one is almost always more sufficient, but of course it never hurts to have two. Installing a 2nd torque arm will be tricky if you have a hub where the cable exits the end of the axle, as you'll need to cut the connectors off the wire and then reattach them. If you are using a 3rd party torque arm that is made from thinner 1/8" (3mm) metal plate, then we'd recommend doubling up and installing 2 arms.

He goes on to talk about potential dangers of opposite-rotation and back-and-forth rotational force of regen, which I had not considered. He even threw out the idea of having one "preloaded" for frontal roration, and another for reverse rotation. He also said they're developing a torque arm specifically for regen. Worth a read.

I was surprised that Ebikes.ca said right on their product page that he cheapest place for US buyers to get the torque arms was from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_sport ... de=3375251
Current price is $38 for one arm, free shipping. EM3EV is $40, and removing two from my cart took off about $5 in shipping charge.

The way I feel about it is, over 2000W, say with us potentially 3000W and beyond, even if briefly, it seems like having 2 is a good idea. Not so much because the 1/4" plate is not strong enough, but more because he's still using hose clamps, and a nut to keep it all together. To me, even if one would be strong enough, it's like a backup. If one clamp or nut gets loose or wiggly, the other one's there. And if you really did need two, again not because the plates aren't strong enough, but because your frame itself might not be, they're there. To me, the more-symmetrical distribution of force over the frame makes sense. It's painful to drop another $40 after all this. But I'm in for so much money now already. I guess it also depends on how much you like your frame. My bike was more than I thought I'd ever pay for a bicycle, and I bought it mainly for the frame and shocks, so I'm not going to risk ruining my frame over this, and that partly includes me fearing my own screwups. I've also seen aluminum frames break at the dropout just from regular (albeit long-term) bicycle road riding. YMMV. If I had a cheapie steel frame, it might be different.

Are you getting the disk spacer, just in case?
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route= ... duct_id=89

And on the wiring link in my previous post, it says that wire color coding doesn't necessarily mean anything, that there's no standard. Great. Well, there are at least 2 people already on this forum who have one; at least one, probably have an Infineon; hopefully they will be helpful to us when we try to figure this out.

Update: em3ev sells this "Ebike Tester"; not sure if it helps you figure out how to wire things up. And it seems that figuring out how to use it, might be as complicated as not using it. The little video he includes, with the flashing lights, makes it look like a device from the original Star Trek series.
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route= ... duct_id=87

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 07 2015 1:09pm
by SprocketLocket
I grew suspicious of 2-piece torque arms, and found a post where dogman himself had one come loose at the pivot screw. I went looking for a 1-piece rear design, and found one by CyclEzee. Neat design. Version 3 is the 1-piece; his version 2 (still sold) is a multi-piece. Cheaper than Grin. Available on Ebay. Made in and ships from UK. If he offers combined shipping on more than 1, it looks like an excellent value. Width is only 0.19 inches, I believe Grin's are 0.25". Other than that, and maybe it's just me, but this design makes more sense to my mind.

http://www.cyclezee.com/cyclezee-torque-arms.html
http://www.ebay.com/sch/cyclezee/m.html ... 1932428451

I'm also starting to see how regen can be a bad thing for these physical contact points. The torque arm at least in this design, would tend to guard against rotation one way, better than another. But even Ebikes.ca acknowledges this on their own as well, and floats the idea of having one TA set up to prevent rotation in one direction, and another on the other side, "pre-loaded" to prevent rotation in the opposite direction, for regen purposes. I will probably avoid regen until I feel more understanding of small details.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 07 2015 1:20pm
by markz
If you want a cheap, buff torque arm I believe its best to hit up a metal shop and just buy the metal yourself.
Cut it and drill it to fit. But if you do not have the tools, bits and blades, then its not so cost beneficial.
If you spent so much on your frame, best to buy the one peice metal for $40 because if/when the drops snap, you are S.O.L.
And I hope you bought a steel frame!

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 07 2015 3:37pm
by mchlpeel
What about something like this?

Image

Can be found here

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 31&t=69073

Not sure what he means about having to drill a 30mm hole though worth investigating this IS type torque arm though.

Re: Leaf motor Build/Questions

Posted: Jul 19 2015 5:02am
by Cyclezee
SprocketLocket wrote:I grew suspicious of 2-piece torque arms, and found a post where dogman himself had one come loose at the pivot screw. I went looking for a 1-piece rear design, and found one by CyclEzee. Neat design. Version 3 is the 1-piece; his version 2 (still sold) is a multi-piece. Cheaper than Grin. Available on Ebay. Made in and ships from UK. If he offers combined shipping on more than 1, it looks like an excellent value. Width is only 0.19 inches, I believe Grin's are 0.25". Other than that, and maybe it's just me, but this design makes more sense to my mind.

http://www.cyclezee.com/cyclezee-torque-arms.html
http://www.ebay.com/sch/cyclezee/m.html ... 1932428451
Just to clarify for those like myself who are of a metric persuasion :wink: all parts of the Cyclezee V2 torque arms are 5mm thick, the V3 is 4mm thick.