MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

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markz   100 GW

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MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 02 2015 2:25am

Hey, been messing around with the ebikes spoke calculator, need your help yet again!

Do I get 13 or 13-14awg spokes?
Custom Cut Black Sapim Spoke Set, Straight 13 Gauge
Custom Cut Black Sapim Spoke Set, Butted 13-14 Gauge

Spoke Calculator.jpg
26" Wide Downhill Crysatlyte Rim
Rim Width (mm) 31
Nominal Wheel Size 26" (ISO 559)
Rim ERD 527
MXUS 000W - I think this is from a V1.jpg

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 02 2015 4:30am

Spoke Calculator Specs for MXUS 3000W.jpg

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by wesnewell » Feb 02 2015 11:34am

Spoke length isn't that critical. +/- 2mm will not cause a problem except longer spokes in a single wall rim where they stick up too far. Your rim is double walled so go with 160mm spokes. They will work fine for 158-162mm required spoke length.
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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by 999zip999 » Feb 02 2015 3:39pm

If I did it again I would put all spoke head's on one side for dishing. As my next test.

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by NeilP » Feb 02 2015 3:58pm

Which spoke calculator is that?

a link would be nice, not seen that one before.


Oh, measure your own ERD...some specs are a bit 'out'


Measure it so it equals where you want the ends of the fully tightened spoke ends to sit, ideally just inside the nipple head to flush or just protruding very slightly, less than a mm.
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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 03 2015 1:01am

NeilP wrote:Which spoke calculator is that?

a link would be nice, not seen that one before.


Oh, measure your own ERD...some specs are a bit 'out'


Measure it so it equals where you want the ends of the fully tightened spoke ends to sit, ideally just inside the nipple head to flush or just protruding very slightly, less than a mm.
ebikes.ca out of Van., BC
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc.html
999zip999 wrote:If I did it again I would put all spoke head's on one side for dishing. As my next test.
I will do it that way
wesnewell wrote:Spoke length isn't that critical. +/- 2mm will not cause a problem except longer spokes in a single wall rim where they stick up too far. Your rim is double walled so go with 160mm spokes. They will work fine for 158-162mm required spoke length.
Gotcha


Time to put in my order, getting the CA-3 too.
Another big chunk of change!

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by NeilP » Feb 03 2015 4:34am

Ah did not recognise it , must be new graphics
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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 03 2015 5:22am

Straight 13 Gauge
OR
Butted 13-14 Gauge <-----Better?

Sheldon Brown website.

Spokes come in straight-gauge or swaged (butted) styles. Straight-gauge spokes have the same thickness all along their length from the threads to the heads.

Double-butted spokes are thicker at the ends than in the middle. The most popular diameters are 2.0/1.8/2.0 mm (also known as 14/15 gauge) and 1.8/1.6/1.8 (15/16 gauge).

Double-butted spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes effectively more elastic, allowing them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.

As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily-stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke holes.

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 03 2015 5:53am

I had a F-it moment and dropped a few Benjamin's.

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by NeilP » Feb 03 2015 11:45am

Well if you have a big motor, then the 13/14 butted is better, as the nipples are smaller, so they can pivot a bit more in the rim, so they can take up the angle of the spoke better.

Go for Sapim polyax nipples too

http://www.sapim.be/nipples/brass/polyax

If you have eyelets in the rim, drill them out too, and sit the nipple on a washer, otherwise the eyelets stop the nipple from swivelling over.

On a normal bike hub , none of this is an issue, as the hub is small. But with our big hub motors , the spoke angle is an issue, the nipples stick out the rim straight and then the spoke bends as it comes out the nipple...and this is where they snap.
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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 10 2015 6:11pm

How do I know if I need washers?
I inserted my spoke into the hub flange spoke hole all the way, the spoke head sits flush, no bump, however I put the rim side of the spoke through hole and I wiggle it or, move it back and forth from side to side, there is a lot of daylight coming through the flange spoke holes. I really do not want to drill holes into my nice hub motor flange.

OK Another thing is, when people say put your spokes all to one side, is the head part of the spoke (hub flange part of the spoke) all pointing one direction on both sides of the flange?

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 11 2015 12:31am

Think I messed up my spoke direction.
IMG_1648[1].jpg
IMG_1647[1].jpg
I think the heads should be pointing the otherside.

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by NeilP » Feb 11 2015 2:46am

I tend, on hub motors, to put all my spokes like your second picture, with head inside , bend outside.
Main reason is ease of build when lacing when having to get spokes under / over each other if you get ghe order you put them in 'wrong'
Also easier to thread them through if you need to replace a broken spoke.
Also crossing spokes that are thick, when hub flange holes are well away from thhe edge puts extra bend around the edge of the flange and again where the spokes cross.

I suppose also you coukd say having all the spokes with the bend outside gives the wheel 'spoke triangle' a wider base, so in theory could be stronger. But that is of little concern.
If you were being really fussy with spoke calculations you would actually put slightly different figures into the spoke calculator for spokes on the same side of the wheel, depending if they are bend in or bend out. Don't know about your hub, but flanges on an Xlyte 53xx series motor are 4mm thick.

As for spoke washers and why
A lot of people think the only reason is to stop the heads pulling through if you are using thin spokes on a hub with big holes. Yes it obviously does do this, but there is another reason.
The bend of the spoke should sit snug up against the countersunk hole in the flange. Everyone thinks the countersunk hole is for the head, but No, It is so the spoke bend is not pulling against the sharp edge of a straight drilled hole.
So even on a thin flange it is useful to use washers to pull the spoke bend into the countersunk radiused hole on the flange.

There is a lot of theory about wrong or right, pulling spokes / inside /outside bends, swapping if the pulling spokes are layed on the outside or inside , depending on disk or rim brakes etc etc,

As far as my experience goes , 46 years old now, been playing wheel building since my teens, spoking is never the issue. Keep em tensioned, build em with lube/copper slip and keep the wheel true.
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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 12 2015 2:38am

Well I did do mine the RIGHT way.
Good stuff, I was dreading redoing it loosely.

From http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ng#p969691
miniCro1.jpg
Mine
IMG_1648[1].jpg

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by NeilP » Feb 12 2015 2:46am

I am sure as you have done it will be fine , though if it were me I'd have had both sides the same,

You have heads in in one side and heads out on the other.

My last build on Xlyte5304 I did heads in, bend out, Previously on the lighter HS Xlyte I did the reverse heads out and bend in.

Did you have a particular reason for doing it like you did? One way on one side, and the other on the other side?
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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by 999zip999 » Feb 12 2015 2:59am

That's the way you want to do it for dishing Time will tell how strong it is with such a big motor. Let us know. That's the way I would do it next time. Remember to retighten. Did you angle drill the rim ?

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by NeilP » Feb 12 2015 3:16am

Ah . Not had to deal with any motors that need any dishing, well not more than a mm or two offset from axle centre.
Bith my Xlytes with disk brake flanges sit so close to central you cant see the dishing.
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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 12 2015 3:39am

I did not drill, no washers.
But maybe I should do washers, 4mm holes from what others have said here on ES, 5mm spoke heads others have said, moto, bike who knows.
I should measure mine. Mine say 4.26mm heads on my digital mastercraft device, spokes from ebikes.ca "Custom Cut Black Sapim Spoke Set, Butted 13-14 Gauge"
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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by NeilP » Feb 12 2015 7:05am

If I am reading the motor dimensions on your first post, it does not look like very much dishing on that motor, 2.5mm offset from what I can see. So, for me at least, I'd have laced as per a non dished wheel, the dish is so minimal.
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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 12 2015 10:58pm

Hmmm so no dish, you lace it heads facing in. Interesting.
999zip999 - Do you have doubts on the dishing lacing?

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by NeilP » Feb 13 2015 12:53am

I've done two wheels, both with Xlyte DD hubs recently
One a new lacing, and one a rebuild after the rim split due fatigue.

One one build I have done heads in on both sides, and on the other, heads out on both sides.

In theory, from basic geometry, heads out has to be more stable since the triangle of the spokes , looking forward from behind the wheel,has a wider base. In the case of the Xlyte hubs with 4mm thick flanges, also taking spoke bend radius in to account, that makes the base width of the spokes (left to right) 10mm wider. So in theory more lateral stiffness.

In practice is this relevant? Does if make a difference. Probably not

Heads in, the spoke has a slight bend as it "folds" over the flange edge as you have to push the spoke thread inwards towards the wheel.

Heads out, as you tension the spoke, you are tending to pull on and 'straighten' the bend, and I guess a lot more stress on the head ...possibly?

Normal bike wheels tend to alternate the spokes in/out aroind each side but I found with thicker spokes and the holes drilled a good way further from the flange circumference, this made a cross pattern a lot harder to do.

I have tried so many ways over the years and come to the conclusion that it is all largely irrelevant.

All wheel damage I have ever sustsined has always been dings on the rim side walls, or fatigue or wear of the side walls. Out of roundness / buckled wheels have never been an issue.
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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by markz » Feb 15 2015 1:49am

I honestly would like to know what others have done, in terms of lacing for this motor.
Those trueing units are expensive, but I think the Community BIke Shop has one I can use.
Or just do the usual, buy one, use it, and return it.
I will leave my wheel as is, and true it at the shop. See how close I can get.
I just have to search the interweb for a good web page on trueing a wheel.
If all else fails I will just spend money for a pro to do it.
I think I should have just bought it already laced from the manufacturer.
Oh well, live and learn.

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Re: MXUS 3000W V2 spoke lengths on 26" rim

Post by NeilP » Feb 15 2015 3:32am

Trueing units!

Don't need one.

Sorry I must have posted the wrong link. Thought it was one showing you how to do it without all that .

You only need that if you are building wheels every day.

Just turn the bike upside down or get another frame and mount it upside down somewhere n a block of wood if yo feel flash.


With the wheel in the forks or rear frame just use items like a piece of sticky tape on the farm or a cable tie with the loose end just running up against the rim, put one each side and cut to suit, then rotate so it is just rubbing on just clear of the rim

Spin the rim and watch the gap /listen to where the end of the cable tie drags on the rim.

Been doing wheels on / off for 30 years, never once used a special stand.
Last edited by NeilP on Feb 17 2015 2:25am, edited 1 time in total.
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