Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

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Arbol   100 W

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Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by Arbol » Feb 28 2014 9:34am

Hello,

I want to add a kit to my MTB. I want to use that bike both during weekends and weekdays. In weekdays, sometimes the bike may need to be parked in the middle of my city, Barcelona, and many bike burglars abound. I am going to use pinheads and two Us. But the problem is what to do with the battery. I do not want to have to carry the battery with me all the time.

I have been thinking about it, and I have found a place to hide a small 12s2p package of Sony VTC4 in my bike, so I could leave that small package at the bike.

I have been thinking about the bottle battery with controller incorporated sold by BMSbattery (but without the low quality cells sold by BMSbattery):

http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/567-bottl ... oller.html

I have thought about purchasing the controller and the guides above the holes of the bottle water, as well as the bottle battery case, but not the cells. And then connect my small battery package to the controller. As a consequence, when parked, the bike would look like as if I have taken the bottle battery with me, when in fact, the bottle battery case is at home (and the small package remains hidden at the bike).

Here come the problems:

1. BMSbattery sells the bottle battery with the controller incorporated, either S06S or S06P:

http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/567-bottl ... oller.html

But when I try to buy only the controller and the bottle case (but no cells), I cannot, since BMS only sells the S06P apparently:

http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/57 ... -case.html

Can I buy a S06S but not in box form:

http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/54 ... oller.html

but in the "integrated" shape?

2. Can the S06S work without LED/LCD and PAS? For stealthiness reasons, I would like to use it only with a throttle (and a speed sensor: I have read in this forum the S12S, and I guess that translates equally into the S06S (yes?), requires a speed sensor in order to work smoothly http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/54 ... oller.html), but it seems the S06S is quite intertwined with the LCD, so I fear if the S06S needs the LCD to work

3. Does the S06S work well with the Q100C? ES member d8veh said the Q100 does not work too well with the S06P. It seems the reason is the S06P is sensorless (S06S is Hall sensored), but from what I read, it was not 100% clear.

4. Can I connect my small battery package to the "integrated" S06S controller (i.e., without the bottle battery at the bike)? Or that controller can only be used when a bottle battery is put on top of the guides? This is a very basic question, but just I want to make sure there is no "proprietary" connection between the "integrated" controller and the BMSbattery's bottle battery.

To sum up, I would like the Q100C, the S06S "integrated", the guides for the bottle battery, a bottle battery case (with no cells), a throttle, a speed sensor, and separately, to purchase a small Sony VTC4 package. Is that feasible?

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by docnjoj » Feb 28 2014 3:48pm

Sounds like you need to discuss the bottle battery package with BMSBattery. I can tell you that both the S06s and the S12S that I have can work without the led/lcd screen by jumpering wires 1-2, and 3-5. You do need the speed sensor connected or the controller will cut-out at 10 min or so intervals and you will have to restart it.
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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by patpatbut » Feb 28 2014 4:16pm

I do not think there is a s06s bottle option as I have already asked them. They only have s06p bottle controller only.

I think you can hide the s06s in black controller case they supplied

Pat

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by Arbol » Mar 01 2014 1:06am

Thanks for the answers. I have already contacted BMSbattery, but it is useless, it seems as if they do not understand the products they sell, and they do not reply all questions. For example, they have told me the S06S does not work without LED/LCD, which is false as it can be seen in their S06S_controller_diagram.jpg:

"On condition there is no LED or LCD display, the controller can work by shorting 1,2 and 3,5"

http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/54 ... oller.html

as pointed out in this thread by docnjoj.

For this reason I am asking here instead of sending more emails to BMSbattery.

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by d8veh » Mar 03 2014 5:40am

The S06S can work without the LCD, but, assuming that the software is the same as the S12S, it still needs the wheel-speed sensor, otherwise it'll go to sleep every 10 minutes.

You can connect any 36v battery pack to the SO6S, and probably 44v (12S) too.

I've not seen a separate sine-wave bottle battery BMS anywhere.

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by Arbol » Mar 03 2014 6:31am

d8veh wrote:The S06S can work without the LCD, but, assuming that the software is the same as the S12S, it still needs the wheel-speed sensor, otherwise it'll go to sleep every 10 minutes.

You can connect any 36v battery pack to the SO6S, and probably 44v (12S) too.

I've not seen a separate sine-wave bottle battery BMS anywhere.
Thanks d8veh.

Do you know if anybody has tried a S06S with a Q100? I remember you said a Q100 with S06P may be problematic, especially with small wheels. Is the S06S also problematic with that motor?

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by Skol » Mar 16 2014 1:21pm

so what is more recommended?
S06S or S06P?
still did not get the point...

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by d8veh » Mar 17 2014 5:25am

Skol wrote:so what is more recommended?
S06S or S06P?
still did not get the point...
S06S is better because it's a sine-wave controller, which makes it smooth, quiet and efficient, but it only works with sensored motors, so if you have a sensorless motor, it has to be the S06P.

The older KU63 controller is a lot cheaper. It can run sensored or sensorless which it selects automatically. It only has one level of PAS, but for throttle only,it would be a better choice.

The KU65 is like the KU63 except it has three levels of PAS.

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by toniovelo » Mar 25 2014 6:08pm

The S06S controller is OK with 48v battery? What is caps inside? Thanks!

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by fellow » Apr 01 2014 11:20am

I've opened my S06S controller (36V version), and there is a seriosly dense packed circuit board inside. The main capacitor is 63V electrolytic. There are few smaller electrolytic ones marked 50V, probaly connected on the +12V line after the voltage regulator (LM317T). The only resistor I could read the color code of was 82 Ohms. The other ones are surface mounted. The 82 Ohms one seem to be connected to the one of the blue wires marked 24V/36V. The other 24/36V wire (red) seem to be connected to the +50V Battery in. It is a very dense bord again, so it's hard to trace the leads.

The fets are STP80NF80 (all 6 of them), with the following data:
VDss=68V
Rds(on)typ=0.0082 Ohms.
Rds(on)max=0.0098 Ohms
Id=98A.
Package To-220.

It was a hell to put the things together again, I don't recommend opening it at all!

Now that we know that the controller probably do take 48V, the question is if LVC is automatic? Or it needs some resistor hacking to bring it down to 40V LVC?
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by d8veh » Apr 08 2014 2:12pm

There'll be a voltage divider somewhere, which you 'll have to change to get the correct LVC.

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by friendly1uk » Apr 08 2014 2:50pm

fellow wrote:I've opened my S06S controller (36V version), and there is a seriosly dense packed circuit board inside. The main capacitor is 63V electrolytic. There are few smaller electrolytic ones marked 50V, probaly connected on the +12V line

I wouldn't expect them to be putting 50v caps on 12v lines. A 16v is a third of the size. 25v half the size. 35v 2/3rd's. 50v is a long way off 12v and they don't waste money. Perhaps it was the 63v out of place, as it is just one cap and just one size away from the 36v design spec.

I'm not intimate with controllers, but if we are stuck here I will consult some drawings to get the answer. Or ask (the great) lebowsky :)
bmsbattery sent me broken and incorrect stuff, and won't even talk to me about it.

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by fellow » Apr 12 2014 3:46pm

I've tested S06S at 46V (almost empty 13s2p NCR18650PF DIY battery). It works without the magic smoke showing up, but got some other hickups that I have to look further into. Those hickups are probably related to S_LCD V2 setup and lack of speed sensor connected to it. At 46V, 14A, 26", Q100H 36V 201rpm and S06S combo pulls like crazy between 10 Km/h and 30km/h. Q100H is 100ml ATF oil cooled and battery used is DIY panasonic NCR18650PF 13s2p.

If you have any information about S06S, or 48V and/or LVC use, please do share it here.
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by fellow » Apr 13 2014 1:39pm

I can confirm that S06S 36V have automatic LVC at 45V, when used with 13s li-po battery. This is compleatly automatic, you don't have to hack anything. This LVC works both with and without LCD display. To use it without the LCD display, connect 1&2 and 3&5 on display jack. Green wire is not in use in this case.

To use S06S with S-LCD V2.5 display, enter the secret setup:
-Hold "SW" button for about 2 secods. Release it.
-Hold "up" and "down" buttons simultanuosly for about 3 seconds. The display should start blinking. Release the buttons.
-Setup your wheel size and push "SW" several times. The display should stop blinking.
-Hold "up" and "down" buttons simultanuosly again for about 3 seconds.
-Set the following values
P1=202 for Q100H.
P2=0
P3=0
P4=0
P5=15 for 48V li-po battery.

The main capacitor inside S06S is 63V, few smaller ones are 50V, and the smallest ones are 16V marked. Do not open your S06S - it's cleary not user repairable controller. I will continue 50V+ testing as soon my charger arrives.
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by Jonathan in Hiram » Apr 13 2014 1:57pm

I'd like to know of one of the S06S controllers or maybe an S12S would work with a regular direct drive hub, I'd prefer without the LCD but I'll tolerate it if necessary.
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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by fellow » Apr 13 2014 2:03pm

S06S needs 5 additional hall sensor wires comming from the motor, besides the 3 phase wires. If the direct drive hub got those 5 additinal wires - it will work. Otherwise - it will not. LCD is not necessary - you know when you hit 30km/h by the total lack of braking power and 40 km/h when your ears start to bleed.
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by Arbol » Apr 20 2014 1:21pm

fellow wrote:I can confirm that S06S 36V have automatic LVC at 45V, when used with 13s li-po battery. This is compleatly automatic, you don't have to hack anything. This LVC works both with and without LCD display. To use it without the LCD display, connect 1&2 and 3&5 on display jack. Green wire is not in use in this case.

To use S06S with S-LCD V2.5 display, enter the secret setup:
-Hold "SW" button for about 2 secods. Release it.
-Hold "up" and "down" buttons simultanuosly for about 3 seconds. The display should start blinking. Release the buttons.
-Setup your wheel size and push "SW" several times. The display should stop blinking.
-Hold "up" and "down" buttons simultanuosly again for about 3 seconds.
-Set the following values
P1=202 for Q100H.
P2=0
P3=0
P4=0
P5=15 for 48V li-po battery.

The main capacitor inside S06S is 63V, few smaller ones are 50V, and the smallest ones are 16V marked. Do not open your S06S - it's cleary not user repairable controller. I will continue 50V+ testing as soon my charger arrives.
fellow, from your comments I believe you are running the Q100H at 13s / 48V with a S06S. Are you happy with that configuration? I have read about Q100 usage with 10s / 36V and 12s / 44V, but I do not recall having read how the Q100 / Q100H performs at 48V.

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by fellow » Apr 20 2014 3:00pm

fellow, from your comments I believe you are running the Q100H at 13s / 48V with a S06S. Are you happy with that configuration? I have read about Q100 usage with 10s / 36V and 12s / 44V, but I do not recall having read how the Q100 / Q100H performs at 48V.
Yes, Q100H and Panasonic NCR18650pf cells in 13s2p (48V nominal = 53,3V off the charger) configuration is correct. All the batteries are hidden inside the tubes (all 3 of them). My 48V charger never arrived, it seems to be lost somewhere in China. I'm still waiting for it to arrive before I can confirm my happines with this combo. I did few very limited short test drives, but the cells were almost empty so it's hard to evaluate anything without the charger. I'll try to post my review in here as soon my 48V charger arrives. The idea is to first try the "stealth" 13s2p configuration hidden in tubes, and if I expirience the voltage sag I'll try to make it a 13s3p or maybe even 13s4p pack instead with auxilary add on bottle mounted outside of the MTB frame. My Q100H is ATF oil cooled, I hope that it will make it last.
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by Arbol » Apr 20 2014 3:06pm

fellow wrote:
fellow, from your comments I believe you are running the Q100H at 13s / 48V with a S06S. Are you happy with that configuration? I have read about Q100 usage with 10s / 36V and 12s / 44V, but I do not recall having read how the Q100 / Q100H performs at 48V.
Yes, Q100H and Panasonic NCR18650pf cells in 13s2p (48V nominal = 53,3V off the charger) configuration is correct. All the batteries are hidden inside the tubes (all 3 of them). My 48V charger never arrived, it seems to be lost somewhere in China. I'm still waiting for it to arrive before I can confirm my happines with this combo. I did few very limited short test drives, but the cells were almost empty so it's hard to evaluate anything without the charger. I'll try to post my review in here as soon my 48V charger arrives. The idea is to first try the "stealth" 13s2p configuration hidden in tubes, and if I expirience the voltage sag I'll try to make it a 13s3p or maybe even 13s4p pack instead with auxilary add on bottle mounted outside of the MTB frame. My Q100H is ATF oil cooled, I hope that it will make it last.
Very interesting, thanks, fellow.

Some questions:

1. Do you have a special kind of frame, in order to be able to fit the cells inside?
2. Usually cells in parallel are spot welded. If I understand correctly, you have a "column" of cells alongside the 3 tubes. How have you connected the 2p? I assume the 13s connections are not so difficult
3. Where have you located the BMS?
4. How does the ATF oil cooling work?

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by fellow » Apr 20 2014 3:46pm

1. The frame is pre 2000 yellow generic MTB. I removed the steering assembly and drilled the 20mm hole thru the shortest steering tube (where the badge is). I fabricated 8s1p and 5s1p packs using bmsbattery shrink tape. Those were 19mm in diameter and fitted inside the bottom tube (40mm inside diameter). You need to put the 5 cells pack first, it does not work the other way around because of the angle. Those 2 packs are connected to 2G1.5mm2 double insulated wires, thru the crank and seat tube. My plan was using ethernet 8-wire for balancing, as I figured pretty soon that the amount of wires going thru the bottom crank bearing were already extreme. It needed a lot of dremel grinding for those 2 x 2G1.5mm2 double insulated wires. At the end, I used the rubber silicone and glued the cells in place thru the 20mm hole and 2 bottle holder holes. This is very important as the vibrations in a MTB frame are severe and can short the stuff if not carefull. As this is very old MTB I almost thrashed, I will simply cut the frame open to get the cells out. Its the beuty of an iphone inspired "technology demonstrator" :mrgreen: .

I even drilled the seat tube (20mm hole here too), putting 6s pack in the seat tube and 7s into the top tube = another 13s1p pack. I stuffed all the cables inside the frame, including the brake signal cables. For the seat tube, I used the plastic fireproof (yeah, like i'm beliving in that!) VP-tube (25mm outside diameter, 21mm inside diameter) that holds the 6 cells into place. I used the rubber silicone and glued everything into place, again because of my fear of excessive virations. I have 4 x 2G1.5mm2 double insulated wires exiting the seat tube, connected to 10A fuses (2 of them, 1 x 10A fuse per 13s string). Main fuse is 15A (S06S is 14A rated, NCR18650PF cell is 18A rated and 2G1.5mm2 is 20A rated under 2m length). Initial/starting value is 10A and 15A fuses. Those are 60 seconds rated acting as a hill-overheat motor protection. They will be changed to automatic fuses later if they pass their initial test fase. I'll try 2x 7,5A and 10A fuse combo later. The frame survived my initial "heavy" tests with 2 big 20mm holes in it.

2. My NCR18650PF cells were delivered spot welded with short metal peaces in place, which i soldered together, and connected to 2G1.5mm double insulated wires. Those wires are exiting the frames and fused outside of the frame. This way I can use the smallest fuses possible and experiment down the right value. The NCR18650PF cells were delivered by this company (using DHL): https://www.akkuteile.de/lithium-ionen- ... a-1006341/. They are safe hybrid cells, short tested at 85C, PTC protected. They are not protected against overvoltage "per every cell" - not talking about the BMS here, but the cells internal protection. They will die peacefully if mistreated. This is the very important thing when choosing the right cell for this aplication. If not, they are burried deep inside ventilated frame, just in case shit happens. The holes are pointed in front of the bike (badge), and behind the seat close to the rear wheel so any excess of hot gases can vent safely.

3. The idea is to locate the BMS outside the frame, in the area under and around the seat. This way it is possible to manually re-check BMS function from time to time. The S06S controller is positioned around the same spot, hidden in the very small first-aid kit. It is the only visible item on the MTB.

4. Just seal the 6 disc screws with automatic gearbox grade silicone (mopar/mercedes benz grade for example), and let it breathe thru the cable hole and bearings. Put the 100ml ATF oil inside (i'm using ATF-U= Mobil1 LT71141 compatible oil), and let it drop out untill it stops. Yes, it will be messy for the first few days but thats the price of messing with oil. Do not use other oils, as they may be conductive and short the motor. ATF is just the perfect for the job, its not too conductive to short it nor too capacitive. Its very kind to plastic, rubber and anything that can be found in the modern automatic transmissions. And it got friction modifiers that the gear part of Q100H just loves. 100ml ATF is the maximum of oil in the Q100H.

5. I don't think that I would ever attempt to do something like this again. It was a pure agony handling the zillions of wires. My opinion is that the only tube worth using is the seat tube in combination with the external container/box. The other 2 tubes are simply too much job, and very hard to do the maintance later. On the other side, winning the Tour the France on a old MTB is now a real possibility :mrgreen: . Finished MTB weights under 17Kg with 13s2p pack, and under 18.2 kg in 13s4p configuration (added 13s2p bottle for extended range - if needed). The MTB weighted under 11kg before converting. Input power should be no less than 48V*14A=672W and at 75% efficiency output power should be no less than 500W. That's corresponding 3 healthy men power (750W with me pedalling or aprox 1 horsepower :) ) pushing a sub 100Kg system=7.5W/Kg. You can read and see some pictures here https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... 79#p884579
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by Khumarahn » Apr 26 2014 4:06pm

Are there any other magic codes for S06S? Maybe there's some sort of a manual?

I tried shorting the 1,2; 3,5 wires to make it work without a display, but it then works as if on level 1 assist - very weak, I had to put display back.

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by fellow » Apr 26 2014 7:11pm

Khumarahn wrote:Are there any other magic codes for S06S? Maybe there's some sort of a manual?

I tried shorting the 1,2; 3,5 wires to make it work without a display, but it then works as if on level 1 assist - very weak, I had to put display back.
Yes, the S06S behaves funny without the LCD. Inconsistent too. I have two of them, and they do not behave the same. One of them got top speed of 22 Km/h without the display, the other 32 Km/h. Manual is on the bmsbattery page, somewhere. Hold "up" and "down" buttons for few seconds, and after setting the parameters hold the "up" and "down" buttons again for few secornd to enter the hidden menu. Here you can set:

P1 Reduction x alnico numer. Set this to 202 for Q100H motor.
P2 Pulses per revolution (speed sensor). Set this to 0 if you have no external speed sensor. This gives very inaccurate readings. Set this to 1 if you are using external speed sensor.
P3 Pass sensor. Valuees 0 and 1.
P4 Throttle. 0=Throttle without pedalling. 1= pedal first (torture-yourself-mode).
P5 Battery Calibration.
Attachments
SO6S-Controller.jpg
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by Khumarahn » Apr 27 2014 2:11am

Interesting. Thank you.

Do you know whether these parameters are stored on the lcd or the controller? And what are proper P4 and P5 values for 36v q100 328rpm with standard bottle battery?

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by fellow » Apr 27 2014 3:52pm

The values are stored in the LCD. If you remove the controller, the speed limit is removed too. One of my controllers is sometimes limiting speed to 22km/h without LCD, i will investigate this later.

Set P4 to 0 if you are using throttle from 0 (=high amps=hard on the controller). Set it to 1 if you want throttle to be active about 10 km/h and over (=the controller will live longer, but you will not :mrgreen: ).

I have 48V battery, I'm using P5=14 with good results. I have no information how to calculate this value for 36V, but you can use trial and error together with the volt-meter.

Important information to people planing to use S06S at 48V! After testing S06S at 48V I'm a bit dissopointed. It gets too hot, even if it's partially made with 48V support in mind. It's wiser to use something else (=more expensive) at 48V - that is my current recommendation.
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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Re: Questions about BMSbattery S06S controller

Post by fellow » Apr 27 2014 4:05pm

Arbol wrote:fellow, from your comments I believe you are running the Q100H at 13s / 48V with a S06S. Are you happy with that configuration? I have read about Q100 usage with 10s / 36V and 12s / 44V, but I do not recall having read how the Q100 / Q100H performs at 48V.
I can answer this now. I'm very happy with the panasonic NCR18650pf cells/batteries, and very happy with the Q100H. S06S is 48V compatible, but it will not hold up for a very long time at this voltage. It works as an emergency controller for few kms on flat terrain. The Q100H is impossible to heat up on flat terrain. Whatever I do, it's at ambient temperature (48V@14A). On S06S you can fry eggs - use it at 36V only.

Q100H 201rpm 36V nominal (used at 48V@14A, flat terrain, no wind): Top speed is about 35km/h (sometimes more, sometimes less). It's really quick up to 30 km/h. After that it's simply embarrasing pushing it to Vmax, it takes ages to reach it. I'll upgrade the controller to something more reliable (IRFB4110 based) and test the hilly terrain later on.
My 18S Q100H Frankenstein S06S project is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=68305

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