Tc80 burnt...

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Pieter de tuinkabouter   1 mW

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Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 14 2014 7:36am

My first TC80 with a 24fet 4115 controller was ready to go at the start of the new Year (6 weeks ago)... I had bought a decent ful suspension frame and fork with 130 and 120 of travel, okay it wasn't really stealthy, since it contained quote a lot of duct tape... But It did what it promised, going well above 75k without the need of any downhill sloping or 2k's of straight...
I rode it for three weeks, i was happy... like i imagine turkeys are a few days before thanksgiving... And then i decided to try it uphill... :twisted:
The first time i had the all too familiar E-bike grin stamped across my face even hours after that climb: 55k on a pretty steep incline... :shock:
The second time was great until about half way... but then i abruptly lost power and it turns out i scorched the windings of the crown :-( i thought this baby would take any kind of beating, but apparently the 75v, 90a battery - controller combo was delivering a little too much.... :(

So i thought about what to do next, after a bit of thought i decided to go for this TC monster again, since i learned it can handle 6000w, i also got me a smaller 18 fet 4110 that i will be hooking up to the v3 computer, so that i can monitor the action a little better. Now i know i could/should do this myself to the bigger controller (since it will handle the job more efficiently), but my knowledge of electronics only goes so far. :?

At the time i built this, i figured something might go wrong, so i kept the good ol' BMS battery 20A, 48v system for commuting, so right now it's back to where we came from. It's an expensive lesson at 700 euros, so if you want to try this, i would suggest hooking it up with the V2 or V3, but i was juist too excited to get that thing riding... The perfect way to get things all wrong :cry:

The new TC80 arrived yesterday and Em3ev put my new controller in the mail as well,

So, I'll keep you posted... :D
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

nieles   10 kW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by nieles » Feb 14 2014 8:08am

hi pieter,

sorry for the loss.

with the next motor, you might consider installing a temp sensor in the motor. this way you can keep an eye on the temperatures and back off before the motor is ruined again.

an other option to increase your chances of not burning the motor would be to ventilate the motor.
judging on your nickname you are from the Netherlands. so water could be a problem with a ventilated motor.. but lots of tips here on the forum.

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by mvly » Feb 14 2014 10:12am

Yeah 75*90 continuous is way too much for it. I usually keep mine around 2.5-3KW continuous with bursts up to 5KW. I think the most I have gone is 6KW. Be careful of the hills. Even the TC-80 can burn on the hills if you over power it. Keep in mind I am running at 24s lipo so my current is a bit lower than yours at the same power input.

I recommend using the temperature sensor it comes with. Usually at the end of the ride, the tmeprature is around 125-130C which is pretty much the limit. I wouldn't go over that number. At those temperature a quick stop at the lights will bring the temperature really fast. So if you keep the power to around 2.5-3KW on flats, you should be able to ride until you run out of battery.

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by hydro-one » Feb 14 2014 10:29am

yup i would def recommned installing a 10k thermister right against the windings with rtv silicon. It took me five years and a few cooked motors to realize this. now i use an lcd/arduino on my dash when i pull heavy loads (like kids on gt snowracers). the temps i see are up to 125-130c and thats plenty, i dont go higher. but a v3 cycle analyst would also be kickass. as it has the feature to monitor a thermister and dial back amps. that is really the best solution here.
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cal3thousand   1.21 GW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by cal3thousand » Feb 14 2014 11:02am

hydro-one wrote:yup i would def recommned installing a 10k thermister right against the windings with rtv silicon. It took me five years and a few cooked motors to realize this. now i use an lcd/arduino on my dash when i pull heavy loads (like kids on gt snowracers). the temps i see are up to 125-130c and thats plenty, i dont go higher. but a v3 cycle analyst would also be kickass. as it has the feature to monitor a thermister and dial back amps. that is really the best solution here.

+1 for the Thermistor with v3 for power runs and especially hills. It's really a genius thing that they included it.
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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by madin88 » Feb 14 2014 1:03pm

@ Pieter

What size do your wheel have?
Have you think about rewinding your burnt TC80 (if the magnets are ok)?
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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by neptronix » Feb 14 2014 3:31pm

~6000W input is peak power, the continuous rating is more like ~2000W.

At 6000W, the motor is going to be putting out around 4000W of power to the wheel and 2000W as heat. There is no way that it can shed that kind of heat!

http://crystalyte.com/The%20Crown.htm

^-- you can see power ratings here.

You could have just tuned down the power level on your 24FET and fitted it into a smaller wheel to avoid this, if you plan on climbing insane hills like this.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
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Pieter de tuinkabouter   1 mW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 15 2014 1:51pm

madin88 wrote:@ Pieter

What size do your wheel have?
Have you think about rewinding your burnt TC80 (if the magnets are ok)?

I did indeed think of having the engine rewound, but i haven't found anyone around here who does that (Brussels area, Belgium), wheel size 26"
Since the motor now acts as a permanent dynamo, i presume the magnets are just fine...
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

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Pieter de tuinkabouter   1 mW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 15 2014 1:58pm

neptronix wrote:~6000W input is peak power, the continuous rating is more like ~2000W.

At 6000W, the motor is going to be putting out around 4000W of power to the wheel and 2000W as heat. There is no way that it can shed that kind of heat!

http://crystalyte.com/The%20Crown.htm

^-- you can see power ratings here.

You could have just tuned down the power level on your 24FET and fitted it into a smaller wheel to avoid this, if you plan on climbing insane hills like this.
Are you for real? Only 2000 watts aren't what i had in mind... My 4kg (that's a third of the TC's weight) BMS battery version takes 1000w continuous, doesn't get hot or anything, well okay thx for the advise, might save me another burn-out :lol:

Yep, i know now, but i tried tuning the controller, i even had the software and the cable and all that, but i couldn't get it to actually program the thing, as i said, my electronics knowledge (and software apparently as well) only go so far, second reason is this controller is just too big, since i won't be needing more than 50Amps, i prefer the much narrower 18fet version...stealth-wise reasoning :wink:

Oh and about the hills: i'll be avoiding those from now on, at least until i get some reliable temperature Reading...
Last edited by Pieter de tuinkabouter on Feb 15 2014 2:11pm, edited 2 times in total.
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

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Pieter de tuinkabouter   1 mW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 15 2014 2:05pm

nieles wrote:hi pieter,

sorry for the loss.

with the next motor, you might consider installing a temp sensor in the motor. this way you can keep an eye on the temperatures and back off before the motor is ruined again.

an other option to increase your chances of not burning the motor would be to ventilate the motor.
judging on your nickname you are from the Netherlands. so water could be a problem with a ventilated motor.. but lots of tips here on the forum.
Thanks Nieles, i'm not the first and won't be the last to throw money away like this... :x
Now the TC has a temp. sensor installed, not a thermistor though, but i haven't quite figured out how to hook this up to the CA, since it is a two-cable version... It probably needs some voltage coming in, in order to get some reading on the other...

Then the ventilation: it does rain too often to open her up to the elements, i'll try my luck first with the new setup. :D
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by nieles » Feb 15 2014 2:15pm

do you have a multi meter? if you have (or can borrow one), could you measure between the two wires (on resistance mode) if it measures around 10k, it is a NTC thermistor

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by neptronix » Feb 16 2014 1:44am

Pieter de tuinkabouter wrote:Are you for real? Only 2000 watts aren't what i had in mind... My 4kg (that's a third of the TC's weight) BMS battery version takes 1000w continuous, doesn't get hot or anything, well okay thx for the advise, might save me another burn-out :lol:
You mean a 9C type motor? 1000W continuous will heat it up eventually.

I could be mis-underestimating the continuous power. I can't speak out of experience, just spec sheets. The continuous power rating seems to be around 2000W for a 26" wheel. If you have a 29er wheel, then your continuous power level is unfortunately going to be lower.

If you are going 75kmh on 72v, i would estimate that you're using a 29" wheel to get that speed?

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

The attached file is the estimation of your hill climbing; maybe the hill grade was extreme.. but it would have overheated at a 10 or 15% grade after a while, too.

according to the simulator, in a 26" wheel, you could cruise at 65kph all day long. On a 29" wheel, your constant possible speed is more like 62kph. The smaller wheel allows the motor to output 15% more continuous power! ( ~400w )
Attachments
2014-02-15 22_37_39-eBike Simulator - Tools.png
2014-02-15 22_37_39-eBike Simulator - Tools.png (99.73 KiB) Viewed 1195 times
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by neptronix » Feb 16 2014 1:53am

Also, attached is a load graph for the crystalyte H4080; a motor which is very similar to yours ( Crystalyte says that the stator is the same width and it also looks identical too. )

Peak efficiency is around 2000W in. at 3000W in, it is turning 500W into heat, and it looks like it can do that for a while, but not forever.

At 6000W, it is more like a toaster oven, hehe..

Any hub motor will burn up if you tune the amps really high and then try to climb a monster grade. With your next motor ( and hopefully using the temp sensor this time? :) ), you should experiment with different amp ratings to find the perfect compromise between speed and efficiency/reliability.
Attachments
H4080 72V50A Test.pdf
(37.8 KiB) Downloaded 177 times
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Pieter de tuinkabouter   1 mW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 17 2014 6:52pm

neptronix wrote:Also, attached is a load graph for the crystalyte H4080; a motor which is very similar to yours ( Crystalyte says that the stator is the same width and it also looks identical too. )

Peak efficiency is around 2000W in. at 3000W in, it is turning 500W into heat, and it looks like it can do that for a while, but not forever.

At 6000W, it is more like a toaster oven, hehe..

Any hub motor will burn up if you tune the amps really high and then try to climb a monster grade. With your next motor ( and hopefully using the temp sensor this time? :) ), you should experiment with different amp ratings to find the perfect compromise between speed and efficiency/reliability.

Idd! Still waiting for the controller to get into the country, shouldn't take too long now...
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

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Pieter de tuinkabouter   1 mW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 18 2014 5:09am

neptronix wrote:
Pieter de tuinkabouter wrote:Are you for real? Only 2000 watts aren't what i had in mind... My 4kg (that's a third of the TC's weight) BMS battery version takes 1000w continuous, doesn't get hot or anything, well okay thx for the advise, might save me another burn-out :lol:
You mean a 9C type motor? 1000W continuous will heat it up eventually.

I could be mis-underestimating the continuous power. I can't speak out of experience, just spec sheets. The continuous power rating seems to be around 2000W for a 26" wheel. If you have a 29er wheel, then your continuous power level is unfortunately going to be lower.

If you are going 75kmh on 72v, i would estimate that you're using a 29" wheel to get that speed?

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

The attached file is the estimation of your hill climbing; maybe the hill grade was extreme.. but it would have overheated at a 10 or 15% grade after a while, too.

according to the simulator, in a 26" wheel, you could cruise at 65kph all day long. On a 29" wheel, your constant possible speed is more like 62kph. The smaller wheel allows the motor to output 15% more continuous power! ( ~400w )

Yeah, i got the Q11 from BMS, but i read here these are basically the 9c with some cosmetic changes.
The wheel: no 26", but with a 55-559 marathon mondial (it's a pretty fat tire), dunno, i read the speeds with my gps and did multiple readings...maybe it's not super accurate, but it won't have been 65 kph... :?
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Spacey » Feb 18 2014 6:05am

I have the lower speed TC65 Crown motor, still have not found time to test it out yet. Have the 72v 50A Crystalyte controller that came with it, my first thoughts were that it was a bit low powered for this motor.

What phase amps were you putting into the motor when you ran 90A at battery?
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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 23 2014 2:50pm

nieles wrote:do you have a multi meter? if you have (or can borrow one), could you measure between the two wires (on resistance mode) if it measures around 10k, it is a NTC thermistor
Hi, no, it reads a very low resistance, 0.3 - 0.5 ohm...
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

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Pieter de tuinkabouter   1 mW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 23 2014 2:53pm

Spacey wrote:I have the lower speed TC65 Crown motor, still have not found time to test it out yet. Have the 72v 50A Crystalyte controller that came with it, my first thoughts were that it was a bit low powered for this motor.

What phase amps were you putting into the motor when you ran 90A at battery?
haven't done any measurings, wouldn't know
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

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Pieter de tuinkabouter   1 mW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 23 2014 3:03pm

goddamn!
... is a good way to start the continuation of this post ...

so i received all my parts last week and since my girlfriend was tired, i had a whole day to work on my bicycle, great!

soldered all cable ends and at 5pm i'm ready for a test drive. Start off slowly, easily reaching 55 kph, going light on the throttle, stopped after a mile to check all cables, the controller's not getting hot, sounds great!

half a mile later suddenly it abruptly slows down: short circuit on some phase part. It turns out the cable i used for the phases was hugely under sized (1.5mm ²) and had melted on various places... the controller is burning hot as well!
i disconnect the cables and go back to my workshop, now using 3x1.5mm² per phase, soldering all done i connect the lot and my controller seems to have been shorted as well, goddamn just got that 18 fet 4110 last week! :( :( :(

So here's a question: is it possible i blew up some mosfets in my controller because of the short-circuit in the phase cables? That seems strange doesn't it?
When i connect phase cables green and yellow: no problem, when i connect the green it shorts and acts as a dynamo...
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by flathill » Feb 23 2014 3:17pm

When this motor was released they was some warnings about it doing fine at some voltages but not so fine at higher

Pinholes in the magnet wire insulation is likely the root issue, at least on the first motor

Maybe they got a new batch of wire

Pinholes are a vexing problem that pop up in batches. You need super controlled humidity to avoid totally but factories in china can get by most of the time without the expense. The quality depends on the weather which is why it is so random

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by John in CR » Feb 23 2014 7:29pm

Pieter de tuinkabouter wrote:...So i thought about what to do next, after a bit of thought i decided to go for this TC monster again
A glutton for punishment I guess. BTW using the word "monster" with any Crystalyte motor is offensive.
Pieter de tuinkabouter wrote:, since i learned it can handle 6000w
I didn't know it was possible to "learn" a myth.

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Pieter de tuinkabouter   1 mW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 24 2014 6:37am

John in CR wrote:
Pieter de tuinkabouter wrote:...So i thought about what to do next, after a bit of thought i decided to go for this TC monster again
A glutton for punishment I guess. BTW using the word "monster" with any Crystalyte motor is offensive.
Pieter de tuinkabouter wrote:, since i learned it can handle 6000w
I didn't know it was possible to "learn" a myth.
Well, that's what the TC Crystalyte spec sheet tells me... Clearly not true...
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by sacko » Feb 24 2014 10:36am

Go for a Cromotor, they're probably cheaper too.

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Pieter de tuinkabouter   1 mW

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Pieter de tuinkabouter » Feb 26 2014 5:06am

sacko wrote:Go for a Cromotor, they're probably cheaper too.
i'll do that, if the second one burns out as well :)
Playing on fully TC80 - 20Ah LifePo4 120ABMS - 60A controller - 75kph max.
Commuting on BMSBattery 48V 20A FWD.
SOLD BIONX kit SL 250 HT DT XL, 45 kph.

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Re: Tc80 burnt...

Post by Spacey » Feb 26 2014 5:23am

Hey Sacko, still haven't hooked up your TC65 yet to anything lol....should have got a Cromotor :lol:
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