Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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motomech   1 GW

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Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by motomech » Apr 09 2020 12:28pm

As near as I can tell, all this stuff comes from China and although I don't want to get political, I am outraged at what China has done to the World and like most things, all I can do is vote w/ my feet. Not trying to suggest that others do the same, just doing what I feel is right for me.
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donn   10 kW

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by donn » Apr 09 2020 12:54pm

Of course it doesn't matter if it's something you don't happen to need, but doesn't some of it come out of Taiwan? For example, TDCM used to make an internally geared direct drive hub, now have a mid sized hub with torque sensor built in. I'm sure there's more.

I more or less agree - whether for exactly the same reasons or different, it isn't a good trend for everything to be made in China - and if there are alternatives, maybe there's a way to make those alternatives more accessible.

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by goatman » Apr 09 2020 12:58pm

I was kind of thinking the same thing but not all that realistic, they make everything. then I thought why not just buy from Grin or Luna
instead of buying cheap Chinese garbage
you send your dollars through companies like grin or luna, maybe they will get the best that china makes, can hire more staff.

but ya im not going to be buying cheap Chinese junk anymore. spend a little more for quality.

move Dewalt and Milwaukee back to north or south America. things like that will take awhile.

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Stealth_Chopper   10 mW

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by Stealth_Chopper » Apr 09 2020 1:02pm

:es:
Last edited by Stealth_Chopper on Apr 16 2020 5:18am, edited 1 time in total.

Balmorhea   10 kW

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by Balmorhea » Apr 09 2020 1:10pm

Best of luck finding things-- e-bikes or anything else-- that aren't made in China, or assembled from components made in China.

Chinese manufacturing has been key to making necessities and frivolities available to a more and more deeply underpaid populace. People blame the offshoring of industry for the loss of manufacturing, but it was just one of several tools intentionally used by capitalists to steal wealth from labor. Dilute the money supply with huge amounts of invented debt (largely owned by China), hold wages down below inflation, but make way for cheaper and cheaper trinkets so the proles hardly notice. Chinese are playing to win, but the game was designed by our plutocrats more than theirs. Capitalism knows no loyalty.

I don't buy very much new e-bike equipment lately, because lots of bits are available to salvage. Most often I'm getting things like BMSes, plugs, spokes and rims. When new, of course it's all made in China. Like everything.

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by flat tire » Apr 09 2020 2:16pm

You're ridiculously naive and only hurting yourself. What a stupid point of view.

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by miro13car » Apr 09 2020 3:25pm

made in China by whom/
Western company made in China or China company - big difference.
Sony camera can be made in Japan or China - same quality.
you must make this distinction.
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ZeroEm   1 kW

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by ZeroEm » Apr 09 2020 3:34pm

Thinking about Grinn's all axle motors. Pair them on the front of my trike.
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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by MadRhino » Apr 09 2020 3:52pm

If you stop using anything that is made in China, you’d better be ready to turn to the Amish lifestyle. :mrgreen:

There is almost nothing modern that is free from Chinese content. Capitalism did it, with constant effort to produce at lowest cost, with minimal man power expanses. Now, every car on this planet has a fair part of Chinese content, every phone, computer, electrical systems, appliances... Made in Asia, is the capitalist reaction to abolition of slavery and exploitation of workers.

when you build an ebike and have the budget, you still can use mostly western made bicycle components, but it is very hard and costly to avoid Chinese batteries and motorization.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by LeftieBiker » Apr 09 2020 3:57pm

The Chinese response to the CV outbreak was no worse than the US response initially: ignore it, don't do much testing, and lie about the risks. Their response after week two was better than ours. This was going to happen some day, and while I agree that manufacturing everything in China is stupid and amoral, the coronavirus alone isn't a particularly good reason for avoiding Chinese goods.

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Sunder   100 MW

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by Sunder » Apr 09 2020 7:03pm

Latecurtis said something similar in his thread, with a less positive response. I think it's an interesting conundrum and it could go one of many ways.

I'm willing to bet in the next election for most countries, the party that has the hardest line on China will get a massive swing their direction. So we could see some REALLY economically damaging years ahead if we are not wise.

Problem is, we need cheap labour to enjoy our standard of living. Dark factories factories that don't need humans) are close... real close - there are a few very specialised ones in China, but broadly not here yet, and the minimum wage is about 11-12 times higher in Australia than in China: That's before we even consider the cost of regulation and compliance. So now we have a deadlock:

1. We can't source local because we closed all factories down
2. Not a lot of capital floating around these days for new entrepreneurship;
3. Any new entrepreneurs even thinking of it, has to be fearful that with 10-15% unemployment looming, as well as wage cuts and loss of bonuses/commissions, and even thosr still earning - just plain fear of loss - for many consumers any additional costs has to trump disdain for China.

The world has to tread carefully. Nobody (except maybe China) wants to let China get away with the manslaughter of tens if not hundreds of thousands, and the destruction of hundreds of millions of jobs and trillions of value. But most courses of action are either going to provoke war or cut off their nose to spite their face.

I'd definitely like to see China lose some of their economic, military and political power, because they are misusing it to the detriment of both their own people and the western world. But the deal with the devil has been signed, and we're now walking the road to perdition.
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After 5 builds, the best advice I can give, is start with high quality products. I prefer http://www.ebikes.ca

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by donn » Apr 09 2020 8:23pm

You don't have to turn the world upside down, to do something.

Everything has Chinese in it? OK, but you can look for things that aren 100% Chinese. Motors made in Taiwan. Batteries made in Japan.

Every dollar that goes to an alternative, strengthens that alternative and makes it more viable. When there's a strong industry making something in, say, Mexico, eventually there will be some factories there making the components that are now Chinese. The Chinese advantage isn't just their labor force, it's the whole ecosystem of component parts that are or can be made there. That used to exist here in the US, and it's going to be a long haul if we or any western country wants to bring that back, but if we don't, we're utterly dependent on China. Can you imagine, if they decided it was time to make their move, and China became an enemy power - our only source for everything we need?

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by Dauntless » Apr 09 2020 8:42pm

So this virus is the only thing that makes you look askance at China? The handling of protestors, the arrest of dissidents, if not abusing the general population themselves the government turns a blind eye to outsiders doing it, including the U.S. None of that rattles you, but this virus. . . .
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Balmorhea   10 kW

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by Balmorhea » Apr 09 2020 9:14pm

donn wrote:
Apr 09 2020 8:23pm
You don't have to turn the world upside down, to do something.

Everything has Chinese in it? OK, but you can look for things that aren 100% Chinese. Motors made in Taiwan. Batteries made in Japan.
I work on a lot of "Taiwanese" brushless gearmotors. Am I going to fool myself about where they really come from? Not at all. I'm confident some Taiwanese middleman's palm does in fact get greased along the way. But that doesn't constitute virtue in my opinion.

Sure there are some Japanese cells out there, and even US made ones. But the assembled packs? Chinese, or at least assembled from Chinese BMSes, cables, cases, plugs, etc. Probably Chinese cells, too, masquerading as something else to pump up the margins a bit.

Chinese workers are scraping and surviving, just like those Americans who still do honest work. If they can do an adequate job more cheaply than anyone else, I don't begrudge them that. And I refuse to think of their exploiter class, however bad, as somehow worse than our own.

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motomech   1 GW

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by motomech » Apr 09 2020 10:01pm

donn wrote:
Apr 09 2020 8:23pm
You don't have to turn the world upside down, to do something.

Everything has Chinese in it? OK, but you can look for things that aren 100% Chinese. Motors made in Taiwan. Batteries made in Japan.

Every dollar that goes to an alternative, strengthens that alternative and makes it more viable. When there's a strong industry making something in, say, Mexico, eventually there will be some factories there making the components that are now Chinese. The Chinese advantage isn't just their labor force, it's the whole ecosystem of component parts that are or can be made there. That used to exist here in the US, and it's going to be a long haul if we or any western country wants to bring that back, but if we don't, we're utterly dependent on China. Can you imagine, if they decided it was time to make their move, and China became an enemy power - our only source for everything we need?
The Chinese advantage isn't just their labor force, it's the whole ecosystem of component parts that are or can be made there. That used to exist here in the US, and it's going to be a long haul if we or any western country wants to bring that back
In this time of dizzyingly rapid changes in the World, little seems to be on the "long road".
Actually, I think you are making China out to be a much stronger player than it is. Today Japan announced that it is earmarking 2 Billion to move production out of China, a tend, prompted by China's raising labor costs, many Countries have been pursuing for a while.
1)China has little in the way of resources,such as productive farm-land and energy.
2)Due to the "One Child" policy, it's demographics are among the worse in the World.
3)China's borders are basicly indefensible.
4)China has no navigable river system to move goods.
Yes, by allowing China to join the WTO and assuming it would be a good faith player was a HUGE mistake, but that is "water under the bridge". But there is one dynamic today that allows China to continue "business as usual", the US Navy. Which brings us back to point 1.
As we reduce our presence in the Gulf of Onan, China's tankers will face a long journey thru dangerous waters passing by a number of Countries that would love nothing better than to poke the Red Dragon in the eye. And despite China's bluster, their Navy cannot protect these routes. Their one Carrier (made in Russia) does not have a a support system that can range much more than 700 miles off shore. It is not a Blue Water Navy.
Although it is not in the World's interest to see China fail, their own actions have seen to it that this will happen. And sooner than anyone can imagine.
Motomech


'07 GT Idive 4 4.0, Q100H 201 frt. mounted, 14S Multistar LiPoly, elifebike 9-FET 20A controller. Mean Well HLG-320H-54A, Crazy Bobs on Alex DM32's 21 to 22 MPH. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=28151&p=1373714&hilit=Idrive#p13737

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by LeftieBiker » Apr 10 2020 1:04am

If you want to source non-Chinese packs or modules, look at Nissan Leaf packs. North American packs made after March of 2013 are built in the US, albeit likely with a mixed source of components. Just avoid the pre-4/2013 packs, which I dubbed the "Canary Pack" with good reason, as they degrade rapidly - especially in any heat. 2015 or 2016 24kwr modules are the best that Nissan ever made, and they are now obsolete. 4/2013 though 2014 modules are good as well, if not exposed to lots of heat.

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by donn » Apr 10 2020 1:57am

motomech wrote:
Apr 09 2020 10:01pm
Actually, I think you are making China out to be a much stronger player than it is. Today Japan announced that it is earmarking 2 Billion to move production out of China, a tend, prompted by China's raising labor costs, many Countries have been pursuing for a while.
1)China has little in the way of resources,such as productive farm-land and energy.
2)Due to the "One Child" policy, it's demographics are among the worse in the World.
3)China's borders are basicly indefensible.
4)China has no navigable river system to move goods.
The labor costs I've heard about. Cheap labor has been places like Malaysia for a while, who knows where it is now. Along with the points you mention, they also have a certain degree of ecological holocaust coming. Still, it's where stuff comes from - they've been handed a monopoly on a broad swath of industry. (And while they may not have a lot of resources in their country, they own resources in other countries - for example the cobalt mines in Africa that go into Li-ion batteries.) If they implode, it's going to be a world scramble.

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by john61ct » Apr 10 2020 3:06am

We are all one species, nations are an irrelevant construct of warmongers and vampires sucking life from the common people all around the world.

Eat the rich whatever passport(s) they hold, focus on taking care of each other and our Mother Earth.

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by markz » Apr 10 2020 4:35am

The Kung Flu Virus started in China, intentionally or unintentionally.

Best to support your local companies to help them survive and stay in business. Even if that means buying CE China Export items that local biz are selling. No way around CE items, no way at all.

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by qwerkus » Apr 10 2020 5:52am

Difficult choice. I don't think there is any manufactured product left on this planet free from some sort of chinese touch. And even than, the question still raises if it would be the right way to go. Here in Europe, due to early lobbying efforts, bosch & co managed to have laws passed that killed the entire hub motor industry. Heinzmann ebike wing is barely surviving, and the uber expensive maxon pieces are just toys for the rich. So buying chinese is actually the only way to battle an already skewed market. Prices are so low that it would be impossible to compete on a local scale. The CNC revolution was supposed to bring production back, but when I look at the price ask for a simple laser cut, I doubt it will every happen without extensive subsidies...
I think that market nationalism ("buy american!") only distorts the economy even more. How would you control a products origin ? The end result would be naive consumers paying too much money for stuff that's being secretly imported anyway... The only true leverage there is remains border controls, but its awfully expensive and deosnt work for the most expensive part of production (R&D).

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by donn » Apr 10 2020 10:03am

It doesn't have to even be legit, to work. Even when the things you buy are actually Chinese under the "Made In Italy" or whatever label, you're creating a market. If there's just the two of us, then it won't make any difference, and wouldn't have anyway, but if there are enough of us, there will be an incentive for real production in Italy/etc.

Like organic agriculture. How much of that produce is legit? Probably most, but how about 40 years ago? National standards are only a couple decades old. Early production in the '70s had to have been pretty hit or miss. If everyone back then had refused to pay extra out of skepticism, organic agriculture as an industry would have gone nowhere. It has to start somewhere, and in the beginning it may be made of chickenwire and lies, but industries don't spring up from ideals.

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by 999zip999 » Apr 10 2020 10:27am

Trump's response was the same as China's. But after two months China got aggressive in fighting the virus. Two still needs to wake up. the number one best thing is the governor of California getting ventilators mask and money behind them. Sharing mass and ventilators with other states this is what the Federal should be doing.
If you want to manufacture the stuff that is manufactured in China you're going to have a river like the yellow river that is so polluted it cannot sustain fish life. London had a change when it had his factories at the turn of the century. We had to take the let out of gasoline so we could breathe and run around again. Look around and see how good your air quality is now with no one driving.
I can also see how disappointed people are when they get their things shipped from China to here and it doesn't work you can't get parts just cuz they made it to cheaply and you can't send it back because it's been over 30 days or you can't ship your battery back.

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by john61ct » Apr 10 2020 11:30am

LOL makes no sense to ship it back, costs more than the value

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by Lebowski » Apr 10 2020 12:57pm

A workable solution to the whole current situation would be to instate quarantine. If you quarantine everyone (independent of nationality) and everything coming out of China for two weeks... many goods come with a slow boat so will have spent most of the quarantine time at sea already. Quarantine will definitely mess with products shipped by air, but then maybe there is an opportunity here to get some manufacturing back. And people, well, you can do a lot of business with video conferencing etc, and if not you'll just have to take the two week hit.

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Re: Not buying anymore Ebike stuff.

Post by john61ct » Apr 10 2020 1:14pm

Only two more weeks? dreaming. . .

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