a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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filspeed   10 µW

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a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by filspeed » Apr 06 2020 6:40am

Hello,
new here.
i want to buy a speed electric bike 28mph/45kmph. I want to be able to do 60mi/100km. so i would like to have a 1500watt battery. problem in my country is that it is prohibited by law to build a bike with that kind of speed, you have to buy it from a company... (speed certificated...) and most speed bikes don't have that kind of battery. slapping on extra batteries like on the bosch systems is not possible. so i wonder if there are brands that have batteries which can be replaced/upgraded by 3rd parties or DIY.

i know bafang is an "open system" where you can do this, but the bikes i can buy that uses bafang system really sucks. if i'm gonna drive 10.000miles a year the bike itself has to be decent...
thanks
kind regards

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by john61ct » Apr 06 2020 6:52am

Does it have to be sold by a Belgian company, or anywhere in the EU and they issue a statement on letterhead about them limiting the top speed?

And your English is not clear about the batteries. From a technical POV it should always be possible to put more sub-packs or cell strings in parallel for higher Ah capacity.

Or are you saying that is also illegal?

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by dogman dan » Apr 06 2020 7:18am

About the only easy way would be to pick a bike you really like, then buy 2 spare batteries for it, giving you about 1500 wh. When the first battery empties, swap out.

At that speed though, 1500 wh won't take you anywhere near 60 miles. At 28 mph, you will use about 35-40 watt hours per mile. What you need is a gas motorcycle if you want to travel full e bike speed for distances longer than 20-30 miles per charge. I used to carry 2000 watt hours, to run 60-70 miles at 15 mph. Pedaling harder than I could helps of course, but if you are needing 1000w to go 28 mph, and you can pedal up 200w, ( most cant for longer than 15 min) Then you would run just under 2 hours on 1500wh. And BTW,, nobody really gets the rated wh out of batteries. So to have actual 2000wh, I carried closer to 2700 wh of theoretical wh. I'm talking I packed almost 40 pounds of batteries, which weight slowed me down even more,,,, and so on.

Sorry this sound so bleak, but lowering your speed expectations just a little bit can really help the range. Clarify what it is you want, or need, and we can explain how to achieve it. Right now, I'm still saying what you have stated calls for gas vehicles, or a much much more expensive electric motorcycle, simply to solve the problem of how to carry that battery load safely. Overload many bikes, and you will find it high speed wobbles now, at 15 mph.. So much for 28 mph traveling now. You start having to get into very large cargo bikes able to carry that load, but the extra weight again slows you down, and big panniers full of batteries catch wind, and there you are, going 15 mph like I was. ( that bike could go 30 mph without wobble, but range dropped to 40 miles with all the battery aboard).

But there is good news.. Lower your speed expectations and range greatly increases. 1000 watt hours is not so hard to carry.. One 500 wh battery goes in the slot on the frame, and another carries in a rear rack. Not that overloaded with just one 500wh battery in that rack. 1000 wh easily goes 40 miles, but at 18-20 mph. You still have the speed for shorter runs, and 25 miles range at full gallop. But 60 miles range in one ride needs a special frame, one much stiffer than typical e bikes are built with. That's where you start looking at cargo bikes, or at least long distance touring bikes, with conversions added.

Look at what your real needs are. Can you stop for an hour mid ride to charge? Two 200w chargers going at once for one hour puts 400 more wh into your tank. So start with an extra charger to go with your extra battery. My situation was different. Western USA, 60-70 miles of desert between plugs, or a drink of water. I had to carry 20 pounds of water on my bike too! For you, a 60 mile ride is possible, if you have a 60 mile round trip commute, the solution is simple, charge while you work.

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by john61ct » Apr 06 2020 7:23am

Maybe have one pair at each end of your commute, leave to charge for the return journey?

filspeed   10 µW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by filspeed » Apr 06 2020 11:20am

thank guys

i'll give a reply to each tought.

1)bike can be bought anywhere, but it has to come with a certification of the company that it is made for high speed 45km/h and not 25km/h... transforming an existing bike to something electric that has more then 25km.h is illegal... otherwise i would just take my touring bike which is better build then most speed ebikes and slap a crystelite kit on it.
so the bike itself has to be certified, not the parts itself.
2)adding subpacks at a bosch system seems not possible. or at least not that easy. these batteries talk to the rest of the system.. if you have 2 batteries in a bosch, they are not parrallel, they are used and charged seperatly at intervall of 5 minutes..

3)at 40km/h one need 420 watt. a person can paddle 150 watt... the motor has to supply 270 watt... i guess with a 1000w battery, you could get 3h of riding, which would make 120 km. so i guess this is a textbook calculation. from what i read on a flat and windstill drive you get 12-14 watt/km and can go up to 20w/km (36w/miles) if windy.
i don't wanna lower 40km/h, if so, i could just slap a crystalite motor on my trekking-touring bike and drive 33km/h. which still would be to fast, but not that crazy that cops would pull me over...
i want to drive to work every day, 2x35km. my collegeu drives a race-bike and can peddle 33km/h on average.
i also wanna paddle to friends 80-100km away.
i wonder what kind of bike, landscape you drive, to need so much power.

4)for travelling to work i easily could leave on at work and on at home... but sometimes i need the get far. i always have paniers with me, but i would rather have it sitting on the bike.

conclusion, i need to look into how much watt i need for 40km/h and 100km far... and decide from there on

edit: bosch has a distance calculator, and with no wind, flat, 100kg, 1000watt battery... at full speed you get 55km; add bit of wind, not the best road, wintertime and a bit hill and you are already down to 40km... in worst case condition : storm... you end up with 18km... i guess they are honest at bosch. i gotta rethink my project....

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zeccato   100 W

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by zeccato » Apr 06 2020 3:07pm

I quote the recommended calculations above.

I have 1500W battery and I do maximum 60km, you have to calculate even a 20% unused (1500W= 1300W).

I recommend placing the battery under the center forward.
Full susp. folding 20 swxh r. (2011),. 02 2020 MacT8. batt. 48v. 25A Life (2012), and 48 7,5A a123 (2018?). Controller programmable EB3 12 FET. Charger Balancer 14s: TP1430C. Gophert CPS-6011 60V 11A. Mercury (rarely). Buzzer. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 6dXxc9-lNW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by SlowCo » Apr 06 2020 3:30pm

You need to read up on the difference between watt (W) and watt-hour (Whr) first.

Then just buy a far too expensive speedpedelec and get an extra battery pack (or two) to swap during a ride to get the desired range.

filspeed   10 µW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by filspeed » Apr 06 2020 3:41pm

thanks guys,

indeed, speed bikes are awfull expensive. i hate it. if they were that good.. but it's all technology that existed 10-100 years ago... and my government made shure that people have to buy the expensive stuff...
speed ebikes is the new chique... if you have 6000 euro's you can have it; that's the price of a second hand car... for 2500 one should be able to buy the best bike possible...

at the moment i'm leaning to build a battery myself:1500watt or so, would cost me 500 euro and use it on a crystalite motor, and run 33 km/h. the whole thing would cost me 1000 euro new, and my made to measure trekking bike would see some action.

thanks guys

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by MadRhino » Apr 06 2020 5:45pm

We have ebike laws here too. Most of places do. I believe there is a way around, mostly everywhere. Here it is pretty easy: as long as you ride smart, the police doesn’t care about the power and top speed of the bike.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by john61ct » Apr 06 2020 7:06pm

The law allowing insurance companies taking your premiums but not having to payout if you hurt someone is a pretty effective enforcement mechanism

Enough to keep ebikes from going mainstream among the poor.

I think we need a worldwide activism / lobby association "eBikes for All" to stop the madness from spreading, even try to roll back.

Like a responsible gun lobby, we should support reasonable regulation for the Public Interest. But not let big corporations use such laws to enforce monopoly / oligopoly, propping up profits, keeping good ebikes for only the wealthy

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by MadRhino » Apr 06 2020 8:30pm

john61ct wrote:
Apr 06 2020 7:06pm
The law allowing insurance companies taking your premiums but not having to payout if you hurt someone is a pretty effective enforcement mechanism
My insurance have added a clause last year, excluding ebikes that are faster than 32 kmh. I went to cancel, but they offered another contract without any exclusions. Always read all the exclusion clauses on insurance contracts, for that is how they rob you. So my bikes are insured, for thief and accidental damages. Here, the insurance for medical and disability is covered by the government for everyone on the streets, regardless to fault. There is no possibility for private insurance in that matter, nor any legal responsibility for an accident on the streets.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by john61ct » Apr 06 2020 8:44pm

Yes well an "International Brotherhood of EV" would need to take a more global approach.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by dogman dan » Apr 07 2020 7:10am

Well, at 40 kph/ 25 mph, your watt hours per mile will be around 30. Better than at 30 mph, but still a lot.

A 700 wh battery will then take you, on a good warm day with no wind, 22 miles /35 km , not including any huge, one way hills. Rolling hills ok.

where does this come from? 5 years of commuting 15 miles one way by e bike. Slow to 20 mph, then you get more like 25 wh/mile. To really get into running at 300w from the motor, you are going 18 mph. ( about 400w total) Unless you are bike racer, and can put out more than 150w for hours. Believe me, in half an hour you will be pedaling at 100w, which is comfortable for most. And if you add another 20 pounds of battery to the bike so you go far, now 300w only gets you 15 mph. Its a long slippery slope, carry more battery, it takes more watts to haul ass carrying it.

If you want to get there fast, and cheap, get a damn old small motorcycle. Seriously. Fast e bikes are expensive, if you ride them farther than 500 wh will take you.

If you have money, buy a speed e bike, and a second battery. Yes, paralleling them would work better, but if its that way, you ride one till its empty, then swap to another. Third or fourth battery, there you are overloaded again. get a motorcycle.

My motorcycles cost about 1/4 per mile to operate than my faster e bikes. To go fast and far, you have to have a bike able to pack 30 pounds of batteries. Here is my 35 mph e bike. It can carry 15 pounds of battery in each saddle bag. Typically, I cruise on it at about 18 mph though. So I can ride farther. Right now, I have only about 1000wh of battery. I got tired of buying batteries, and bought motorcycles.
6-1-2015  Schwinn Cruiser with 52 t crank.JPG
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zeccato   100 W

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by zeccato » Apr 07 2020 9:26am

Not always a fast bike costs a lot (I'm light), with a full folding (2011), and from 2012 45-50km/h, also battery (from 2012) 14kg.

(I had to learn and do things myself).
Full susp. folding 20 swxh r. (2011),. 02 2020 MacT8. batt. 48v. 25A Life (2012), and 48 7,5A a123 (2018?). Controller programmable EB3 12 FET. Charger Balancer 14s: TP1430C. Gophert CPS-6011 60V 11A. Mercury (rarely). Buzzer. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 6dXxc9-lNW

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by john61ct » Apr 07 2020 10:59am

Are there OTS petrol motor kits that can be relatively easily swapped out with something like the Lightning Rods big block?

Say you might want to do that 3-4 times a year, no room for two bikes. . .

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: a speed electric bike, looking something with a big battery

Post by dogman dan » Apr 08 2020 7:36am

Maybe I should clarify.. Parking a fast e bike can be affordable. Needing a new battery for one constantly gets pricy.

Slowing down gets you to where batteries last 2-3 years, but hammer them hard, and charge them twice a day 5 days a week, and you are buying very expensive new batteries way too often for the cost to be affordable.

Meanwhile, my 90 mph scooter gets me places at 12 cents a mile, hell, might be 8 cents now that gas is gone stupidly cheap. My best ever result on an e bike cost me 25 cents a mile. Add up the cost of 8 new tires a year for one thing. ( lots of cut up tires from junk in the road) Enough miles and even bikes get expensive.

It comes down to which budget your bike comes from. Your cheap transportation budget, or the who cares what it costs entertainment budget.

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