What could I do in the predicament?

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ebike11   100 kW

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What could I do in the predicament?

Post by ebike11 » Mar 10 2020 4:52am

Hi guys
Im hoping to get some suggestions for my set up
I have a QS205 motor and 72220 sabvoton controller with an EM3EV 72V 20S10P samsung 25R cell pack.
I didnt know until after but the pack has a 100A rated BMS. Everything runs fine but Id like to get the full power, or as close to it as I can from those componants.
Since the BMS is at 100A, I set the Sabvoton app to 95A since Im worried if I go over that I might damage something.
To be able to run the controller at near max. output (200A continuous), Im assuming Id have to replace the BMS? Could the 25R cells handle more power if I swap out the BMS unit??
Thanks!!

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by Sunder » Mar 10 2020 6:52am

You could wire the controller directly to the battery, then use a relay to switch off power if any condition except over-current trips the BMS (e.g. unbalanced cells). This will of course void warranty, and give you a single point of failure. If the controller fails to limit the current, or you get a short, you're getting everything the batteries will offer, until the BMS decides that one of the cell voltages is too low, and it better cut off power.

Changing BMS will also void warranty, though, but less dangerous. Only, more expensive.

Putting a second identical pack in parallel is another option. The packs kind of need to be in very similar conditions, if you don't want any kind of rebound charging tripping the BMS though.

Although the cells are rated at 20A each, and you have them 10 in parallel, running anything right to the edge of it's rating is a sure way of getting a short life out of it. Perhaps the BMS was chosen for a 100A limit for a reason?
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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by ebike11 » Mar 10 2020 7:17am

Sunder wrote:
Mar 10 2020 6:52am
You could wire the controller directly to the battery, then use a relay to switch off power if any condition except over-current trips the BMS (e.g. unbalanced cells). This will of course void warranty, and give you a single point of failure. If the controller fails to limit the current, or you get a short, you're getting everything the batteries will offer, until the BMS decides that one of the cell voltages is too low, and it better cut off power.

Changing BMS will also void warranty, though, but less dangerous. Only, more expensive.

Putting a second identical pack in parallel is another option. The packs kind of need to be in very similar conditions, if you don't want any kind of rebound charging tripping the BMS though.

Although the cells are rated at 20A each, and you have them 10 in parallel, running anything right to the edge of it's rating is a sure way of getting a short life out of it. Perhaps the BMS was chosen for a 100A limit for a reason?
Thanks for you detailed reply!
Well I dont and probably wont try and run the cells to their max.of the 200A that the controller puts out all the time...i just want to have that extra power there whenever i feel more throttle happy and power bursts. At the moment, the 72220 controller is only able to be set 100V and lower considering the bms rating so I kept the controller setting at 90A

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by MadRhino » Mar 10 2020 7:47am

Well ‘full power from those components’ is the limit of the chain, AKA its weakest link. It is the battery right now, then the controller, for the motor is capable of more than both of them can feed. It doesn’t pull much current in continuous operation, but the H50 can be very power hungry in hard acceleration.

Your battery is very weak for this motor, that we mostly run from low resistance RC lipo. Mine are assembled 24s and could supply 500A if required. Of course I don’t feed that much, but +250A bursts in acceleration is frequent. Consider the true limit of your battery, the demand that is starting a heat build up. That can be much lower than spec, especially when a lot of cells are assembled together. That is because of the sum of the resistance of all assembly connections, and lack of air flow between tightly packed cells.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by ebike11 » Mar 10 2020 8:41am

MadRhino wrote:
Mar 10 2020 7:47am
Well ‘full power from those components’ is the limit of the chain, AKA its weakest link. It is the battery right now, then the controller, for the motor is capable of more than both of them can feed. It doesn’t pull much current in continuous operation, but the H50 can be very power hungry in hard acceleration.

Your battery is very weak for this motor, that we mostly run from low resistance RC lipo. Mine are assembled 24s and could supply 500A if required. Of course I don’t feed that much, but +250A bursts in acceleration is frequent. Consider the true limit of your battery, the demand that is starting a heat build up. That can be much lower than spec, especially when a lot of cells are assembled together. That is because of the sum of the resistance of all assembly connections, and lack of air flow between tightly packed cells.

Thanks MadRhino, yeah I think the pack is nothing for the qs205, its just i like the service at em3ev and quality of their packs that I have seen on youtube, so I bit the bullet and bought the biggest with the most high performing cells that they have. Plus it fits nicely in the EEB frame for me.
May I ask if you have a link or pic of the type of low resistance RC lipo that you run on a qs205?
Thanks

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by DogDipstick » Mar 10 2020 9:07am

I bet it would peak pretty good over 100A ( peaking) if the pack is designed around 100A contin. Like 200A easy.. maybe. Have you tried it? Does the BMS cutoff on a high amp draw? Regaurdless, if you are not jumping in a park and mountain climbing, the datalogs show me the contin amp draw is low ( commute) at speed. .... It all depends on what cruise speed is ( Kv?) and the power curve of your wind/controller setup

I never really peak 100A much, when riding nicely the bike/ride is happy with the kick you in the butt 80A peaks, let alone the 100A peaks. Bike/rider is so light that the speed comes right up and the peak is not long.

I would worry if you plan on over 50mph contin. but would not worry if you are cruising under that about a few peaks let through the BMS.. I mean they are made allowance to peak a little, right,? Peak is not long on a light bike... most of the time you will be runnning in the sub 100A zone.. like 80%-90% or more of the time.
83.1v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D Broke 10 horsies :twisted: (..about 80% healed..).. :? Anybody.. what equals √3 times the line to neutral voltage? Asking for a friend.. :| (gottenymoem4115thangs?Yall?) :confused: Fabricator @ BSECo. Inc.

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by ebike11 » Mar 10 2020 9:40am

DogDipstick wrote:
Mar 10 2020 9:07am
I bet it would peak pretty good over 100A ( peaking) if the pack is designed around 100A contin. Like 200A easy.. maybe. Have you tried it? Does the BMS cutoff on a high amp draw? Regaurdless, if you are not jumping in a park and mountain climbing, the datalogs show me the contin amp draw is low ( commute) at speed. .... It all depends on what cruise speed is ( Kv?) and the power curve of your wind/controller setup
Thanks for the reply!
I havent tried it yet coz im worried that I might damage the BMS that was installed in the pack by em3ev. Its a new pack so I thought id play it safe and set my sabvoton at 95A but it is rated for 200A

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by MadRhino » Mar 10 2020 12:21pm

The BMS will not suffer any damage. It will just trip off if you try pulling more than it is set to. It is acting like a circuit breaker, so normally it will let you pull some more for a short moment before tripping. Still, it is not funny to have your bike stopping because of BMS limit, so better set the controller conservatively.

After running it full power in acceleration bursts for a few years, then installed a temporary 100A controller for a week and found it very lame. All is a matter of riding habits. I use no BMS, and low resistance RC lipo, for the purpose of full power availability. But, as was said, the motor is not power hungry in continuous operation. So the only performance loss was in acceleration, since the 100A controller was achieving normal cruising and full top speed.

Buy lipos at Hobby King, choose the best quality that you can afford. You are looking for the lowest IR (internal resistance), because it is what is making possible repeated high power surges, and fast charging too, without heat build up. With a powerful bike, temp monitoring is a must because it is the only true measure of your motor and battery safety.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by ebike11 » Mar 10 2020 6:55pm

MadRhino wrote:
Mar 10 2020 12:21pm
The BMS will not suffer any damage. It will just trip off if you try pulling more than it is set to. It is acting like a circuit breaker, so normally it will let you pull some more for a short moment before tripping. Still, it is not funny to have your bike stopping because of BMS limit, so better set the controller conservatively.

After running it full power in acceleration bursts for a few years, then installed a temporary 100A controller for a week and found it very lame. All is a matter of riding habits. I use no BMS, and low resistance RC lipo, for the purpose of full power availability. But, as was said, the motor is not power hungry in continuous operation. So the only performance loss was in acceleration, since the 100A controller was achieving normal cruising and full top speed.

Buy lipos at Hobby King, choose the best quality that you can afford. You are looking for the lowest IR (internal resistance), because it is what is making possible repeated high power surges, and fast charging too, without heat build up. With a powerful bike, temp monitoring is a must because it is the only true measure of your motor and battery safety.
Thanks again!
But I dont see the IR spec listed on the hobbyking lipos. Is there a way to find that?
Also what about this pack? 3 or 4 of them connected together. It seems to be the biggest pack that they sell for lipo

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-hig ... s_products

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by HK12K » Mar 10 2020 8:53pm

ebike11 wrote:
Mar 10 2020 6:55pm
MadRhino wrote:
Mar 10 2020 12:21pm
The BMS will not suffer any damage. It will just trip off if you try pulling more than it is set to. It is acting like a circuit breaker, so normally it will let you pull some more for a short moment before tripping. Still, it is not funny to have your bike stopping because of BMS limit, so better set the controller conservatively.

After running it full power in acceleration bursts for a few years, then installed a temporary 100A controller for a week and found it very lame. All is a matter of riding habits. I use no BMS, and low resistance RC lipo, for the purpose of full power availability. But, as was said, the motor is not power hungry in continuous operation. So the only performance loss was in acceleration, since the 100A controller was achieving normal cruising and full top speed.

Buy lipos at Hobby King, choose the best quality that you can afford. You are looking for the lowest IR (internal resistance), because it is what is making possible repeated high power surges, and fast charging too, without heat build up. With a powerful bike, temp monitoring is a must because it is the only true measure of your motor and battery safety.
Thanks again!
But I dont see the IR spec listed on the hobbyking lipos. Is there a way to find that?
Also what about this pack? 3 or 4 of them connected together. It seems to be the biggest pack that they sell for lipo

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-hig ... s_products
Based on what my Hobby charger reports (Hitec) my Turnigy's all seem to be around 1 mΩ per cell.

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by DogDipstick » Mar 10 2020 9:21pm

1 year summary of some really in depth battery evaluation by hobbyist like us who have been doing it for years.

Hobbyking aint the bet place to find lipos, even though they will sell you lots fast. Many think it is.

Most of my good 6s 5000mAh packs I have are around 2mOh and expensive.. but dont rate good on this chart (the Pulse Ultra, I got alot of them.. ) I also have flown Graphenes and they are definitely punchy.

Through 2019 from another forum.
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83.1v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D Broke 10 horsies :twisted: (..about 80% healed..).. :? Anybody.. what equals √3 times the line to neutral voltage? Asking for a friend.. :| (gottenymoem4115thangs?Yall?) :confused: Fabricator @ BSECo. Inc.

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by markz » Mar 10 2020 11:48pm

The DUD rate for Hobbyking Lipo's is like 5-10% if my memory serves me right.
ES Member name: Icecube57
Did a bunch of testing.
Easy returns to HKing

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by ebike11 » Mar 11 2020 5:02am

markz wrote:
Mar 10 2020 11:48pm
The DUD rate for Hobbyking Lipo's is like 5-10% if my memory serves me right.
ES Member name: Icecube57
Did a bunch of testing.
Easy returns to HKing
Im thinking HK would be the best for me coz of the shipping.
They have a ton of lipo types so ill need to be careful which type to choose

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by ebike11 » Mar 11 2020 7:54am

HK12K wrote:
Mar 10 2020 8:53pm
ebike11 wrote:
Mar 10 2020 6:55pm
MadRhino wrote:
Mar 10 2020 12:21pm
The BMS will not suffer any damage. It will just trip off if you try pulling more than it is set to. It is acting like a circuit breaker, so normally it will let you pull some more for a short moment before tripping. Still, it is not funny to have your bike stopping because of BMS limit, so better set the controller conservatively.

After running it full power in acceleration bursts for a few years, then installed a temporary 100A controller for a week and found it very lame. All is a matter of riding habits. I use no BMS, and low resistance RC lipo, for the purpose of full power availability. But, as was said, the motor is not power hungry in continuous operation. So the only performance loss was in acceleration, since the 100A controller was achieving normal cruising and full top speed.

Buy lipos at Hobby King, choose the best quality that you can afford. You are looking for the lowest IR (internal resistance), because it is what is making possible repeated high power surges, and fast charging too, without heat build up. With a powerful bike, temp monitoring is a must because it is the only true measure of your motor and battery safety.
Thanks again!
But I dont see the IR spec listed on the hobbyking lipos. Is there a way to find that?
Also what about this pack? 3 or 4 of them connected together. It seems to be the biggest pack that they sell for lipo

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-hig ... s_products
Based on what my Hobby charger reports (Hitec) my Turnigy's all seem to be around 1 mΩ per cell.
What do you guys think of 4 of these to make a 24 cell pack? They are the most expensive though
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-hig ... s_products

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by markz » Mar 11 2020 1:53pm

Most people go with green Multistar High Capacity LiPo's but I only see one small pack, they used to have 20,000mAh.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-h ... s_products


Happy reading - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=61672&hilit=multistar#p921086

Icecube57 + Multistar - search.php?keywords=multistar&terms=all ... mit=Search


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=61672&p=1173758&hilit=dud#p1173758
This must be done as soon as you get them. Ive spent as much as 2 weeks checking packs from hobby king. Expect as much as 10-15% dud rate. But when you do get good ones they are golden.
Ive got plenty of refunds by registering my packs for warranty and supplying them the information as soon as I discover it. the first cycle will tell you alot.

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by markz » Mar 11 2020 2:12pm

I think your Hobby King LiPo route is the best for high power, high density, easy to connect, easy to charge battery pack.

I myself need a new battery as well. Since I do have a tab welder, I am going with 18650's from NKON to build my own in 5S segments. NKON can tab weld individual cells for an extra fee (0.50 euros per can) , so you could solder up your own. Hopefully with NKON tab welding you can still slip the cans into holders. -------------- Yes, some have even used the tray holders. What I'd do in that situation is go to Home Depot, buy some home building electrical outlet wiring, NMD90 10/3 (Orange) solid core wire and some good strippers ;)

My second choice would be LiPo's from Hobbyking, since I do have a tab welder for 18650 cans. For pre-assembled reputable built packs, Unit Pack Power is an option, OSNPower another, EM3EV, and GrinTech.

For a simple, RIGHT NOW battery. Expensive way to go is Home Depot and look at their tool battery selections. EGO 56V ------------------ Ryobi's are cheap. Either you cut them open, or figure out a way to not disturb the casing and use the connection points for a solid connection. Which means you gotta buy their charger, which adds more to the cost.


NKON site
U-solder tags. Note, production on demand, this takes on average 3 business days extra but might take up to 2 weeks! +€0.55
Z-solder tags. Note, production on demand, this takes on average 3 business days extra but might take up to 2 weeks! +€0.55
U and Z tag shapes - https://ru.nkon.nl/tags

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by MadRhino » Mar 11 2020 7:50pm

Hobby King is not the best place, because you can buy direct to manufacturers in China, and order the very best spec. But, Hobby King are making it easy and fast. They ship quick and free, and they have some lipos that are very good. You just have to know what you need, and what is best to buy.

Internal resistance is specified. Look carefully, or ask for it. Tunigy Graphene are very low resistance (1.2 milliOhm), some can be charged in 5 minutes). Avoid the bigger bricks. Larger than 6s 8000Ah, even the best are hard to keep cool. Best is to have proper air flow. Those who are building performance with large cells, are usually buying individual cells and assemble them with cooling separators.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street:
Trek Session 10 mod. Variable geometry. 70mph
Dirt:
Santa Cruz V10. 50mph

ebike11   100 kW

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by ebike11 » Mar 11 2020 8:59pm

MadRhino wrote:
Mar 11 2020 7:50pm
Hobby King is not the best place, because you can buy direct to manufacturers in China, and order the very best spec. But, Hobby King are making it easy and fast. They ship quick and free, and they have some lipos that are very good. You just have to know what you need, and what is best to buy.

Internal resistance is specified. Look carefully, or ask for it. Tunigy Graphene are very low resistance (1.2 milliOhm), some can be charged in 5 minutes). Avoid the bigger bricks. Larger than 6s 8000Ah, even the best are hard to keep cool. Best is to have proper air flow. Those who are building performance with large cells, are usually buying individual cells and assemble them with cooling separators.
Ok I see.
But the packs would be inside my EEB frame so there really wouldnt be any airflow

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by ebike11 » Mar 11 2020 9:06pm

markz wrote:
Mar 11 2020 1:53pm
Most people go with green Multistar High Capacity LiPo's but I only see one small pack, they used to have 20,000mAh.
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/multistar-h ... s_products


Happy reading - viewtopic.php?f=14&t=61672&hilit=multistar#p921086

Icecube57 + Multistar - search.php?keywords=multistar&terms=all ... mit=Search


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=61672&p=1173758&hilit=dud#p1173758
This must be done as soon as you get them. Ive spent as much as 2 weeks checking packs from hobby king. Expect as much as 10-15% dud rate. But when you do get good ones they are golden.
Ive got plenty of refunds by registering my packs for warranty and supplying them the information as soon as I discover it. the first cycle will tell you alot.
Thanks for the info!

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by john61ct » Mar 11 2020 9:21pm


MadRhino wrote: some can be charged in 5 minutes).
Wut?

details please

And even if in theory possible would be dangerous and very bad for pack longevity.


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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by DogDipstick » Mar 11 2020 9:34pm

john61ct wrote:
Mar 11 2020 9:21pm
MadRhino wrote: some can be charged in 5 minutes).
Wut?

details please

And even if in theory possible would be dangerous and very bad for pack longevity.

Bahahahah do you even "Hobby" much? Just joking but yeah...


3-5C on a 5000mAh pack is 15-25A... yeah all the time easy peasy. ..with these flight packs. 2C is 1/2 hour charge. 4C is 15 min. They can charge at 5C.... 12 min. from ded... and you never ever drain a HK lipo dry ( ded) .... I usually aim for 30-50% capacity left so they dont die....... And come down before tehy die so as not to have dedstick landings from ded powersystems. ... Rc aircraft... So I fly 3/4 of a 5000mAh and recharge in about 7-8min.

Lol. Do it all the time at the field. Pack last a few years hitting them at 50C discharge +... 12Kw on a 5Ah pack.... of 44v... is like how many C ? Hahahha Powerlab can charge them easy... in under 10 min per... if you have the input power. For gentle charging I use 2c and 3/4 capacity drained usually.. like 20 min. per charge for a single 6s 5000mAh.... gentle... But usually I try for under 10 min and charge 4-5C / batt.


Multistars are horrible batteries.

Turnig Blue are good. Turnigy Blue >>>>>>>>>> Multistar.

I have two 6-7 year old Turnigy Blues, big.
83.1v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D Broke 10 horsies :twisted: (..about 80% healed..).. :? Anybody.. what equals √3 times the line to neutral voltage? Asking for a friend.. :| (gottenymoem4115thangs?Yall?) :confused: Fabricator @ BSECo. Inc.

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by ebike11 » Mar 11 2020 9:49pm

DogDipstick wrote:
Mar 11 2020 9:34pm
john61ct wrote:
Mar 11 2020 9:21pm
MadRhino wrote: some can be charged in 5 minutes).
Wut?

details please

And even if in theory possible would be dangerous and very bad for pack longevity.

Bahahahah do you even "Hobby" much? Just joking but yeah...


3-5C on a 5000mAh pack is 15-25A... yeah all the time easy peasy. ..with these flight packs. 2C is 1/2 hour charge. 4C is 15 min. They can charge at 5C.... 12 min. from ded... and you never ever drain a HK lipo dry ( ded) .... I usually aim for 30-50% capacity left so they dont die....... And come down before tehy die so as not to have dedstick landings from ded powersystems. ... Rc aircraft... So I fly 3/4 of a 5000mAh and recharge in about 7-8min.

Lol. Do it all the time at the field. Pack last a few years hitting them at 50C discharge +... 12Kw on a 5Ah pack.... of 44v... is like how many C ? Hahahha Powerlab can charge them easy... in under 10 min per... if you have the input power. For gentle charging I use 2c and 3/4 capacity drained usually.. like 20 min. per charge for a single 6s 5000mAh.... gentle... But usually I try for under 10 min and charge 4-5C / batt.


Multistars are horrible batteries.

Turnig Blue are good. Turnigy Blue >>>>>>>>>> Multistar.

I have two 6-7 year old Turnigy Blues, big.
Like these?:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-hig ... tore=en_us

Also im need to make a large pack with HK lipos to power a qs025 motor and 200A controller
Last edited by ebike11 on Mar 11 2020 11:43pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by markz » Mar 11 2020 10:26pm

They are all the same, its just that you dont trust the #'s they give you as far as C-rate goes. Just half it.

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by DogDipstick » Mar 11 2020 10:30pm

👍 Yeah The Turnigy is kinda what HK is offering in the Multistars place nowadays for good energy density and power for med amp draws.. ( fine for ebikees) but yea, they should last a long time if well cared for and give good power, those big blue bricks.

I would run them. I know people who do, buy those and ebike with them.

I kinda disagree with markz, not all lipos are equal. Some are downright bad or even misprinted ( unaligned core/glue/case+bad wiring)

.. but yeah agreeing with markz too , most consumer grade HK lipos come from the same general formula.. and quality... some say this countries HK lipos are better, or that countries are, but HK shines in replacement ease if you have a problem.. warranty.
83.1v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D Broke 10 horsies :twisted: (..about 80% healed..).. :? Anybody.. what equals √3 times the line to neutral voltage? Asking for a friend.. :| (gottenymoem4115thangs?Yall?) :confused: Fabricator @ BSECo. Inc.

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Re: What could I do in the predicament?

Post by john61ct » Mar 11 2020 11:01pm


DogDipstick wrote:3-5C on a 5000mAh pack is 15-25A... yeah all the time easy peasy. ..with these flight packs. 2C is 1/2 hour charge. 4C is 15 min. They can charge at 5C.... 12 min. from ded
Yes but 5min is 12C

And will stand by this:
And even if in theory possible would be dangerous and very bad for pack longevity.

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