Advice for a kit for a specific route

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
Post Reply
Harllequin   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 14 2020 9:07pm

Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by Harllequin » Feb 14 2020 9:42pm

Hi there guys.

Currently I'm using a Muddy Fox Pathfinder (yes it's almost as old as me!) to go to work and back.

I'm only looking at a distance of 2 miles, the problem I have is the hill. 151m in less than 1 mile. Takes me 10 minutes to go to work and 30 minutes to get home. Getting there as you can see is no problem, the first half a mile is great, then I hit THE HILL which is a mile, then I level out again. So I need a boost for that bugger of a mile.

The Muddy Fox has no suspension (never had a bike with one) but it's comfortable enough, for what I'm used to.

What I'd like to know from you guys is would I be best off ordering a kit for my current bike, if that's the case can you please recommend one. It does not have to be road legal as I can thread my way to and from work without using roads (pushing the bike if needed for a few hundred yards) Or will I do best buying an off the shelf option an which one would you recommend. I'm looking for the most cost effective option to get the job done.

I'd also like to include decent lights, night duty in winter = not so good off road fun.

This being for a specific 2 mile run I thought it best to look to you guys for the best advice. I'm not looking for massive speeds, I'm happy to pedal under my own steam on the return journey's first half an last half mile, it' just the hill in the middle I want help with. Oh and I'd like a mountain bike style, no practical reason other than I like that style.

Thank you kindly in advance for your time and effort in replying to my request.

User avatar
e-beach   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3280
Joined: Jan 10 2012 9:48pm
Location: Any Los Angeles area beach I am at. Or Santa Monica or possibly the south bay beaches.

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by e-beach » Feb 14 2020 11:17pm

Hi Harllequin, welcome to ES. People around here generally attack hills in two ways. One, with a bottom bracket motor aka, a mid drive motor that uses your gears to attack the hill. Or, they over power the hill with a high voltage.

You need to measure your Muddy Fox Pathfinder to see if you have a bottom bracket standard that will fit a bottom bracket motor.
Bafang is the standard bottom bracket motor used. However there are others.

If you want to go with a DD hub motor, then get a 48v motor and a controller that can go over 48v.
This also means you need a battery to deliver more then 48 volts. And that is where the quandary begins.

How are your electronic ability's? Can you run a soldering iron and DMM?

Also, a full suspension bike is far more comfortable to ride for most of us. If you are a heavy person then suspension tends to bottom out and you might consider large tires to help.

If I were going to do a hill like you describe I would go with a DD hub motor on a full suspension bike with a 72v battery. Your amp hours don't have to be to big due to your short travel distance. However, once you get e-biking you will want to go further.

As for recommendations, i have gone more then ten thousand miles on my yescomusa DD motors, but also check out these sites.

Ebikes.ca
EM3EV
Ping Battery
Luna Cycles.
Favorite Quotes:
"This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." Chris Erskine
"At a certain point the entropy wins." Maria Helena Braga

Current Build: ProFlex 757 Expert full suspension. Yescomusa 36v 800w Rear DD, upgraded 10AWG solid core through axle phase wires. 15ah Headway, 1000+ cycles, 80% DOD 30A Tronsung controller.

Past: Trek 4500 Yescomusa 36v 800w front DD.
Liahona, Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front DD.
1992 Trek 800, Yescomusa 800w 36v front DD.

AHicks   100 W

100 W
Posts: 270
Joined: Jul 24 2018 10:53am

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by AHicks » Feb 15 2020 8:52am

My vote- based on my experience as a bigger rider (6'2"/300lbs) after riding the same bike powered by a 750w direct drive rear hub, then a 1500w direct drive rear hub, and finally a 1000w geared rear hub (MAC 12t). Bike spends a lot of time in a hilly coastal area.

I would NOT go with a direct drive hub with your need for scaling a big hill. It would have to be a gear driven rear hub, the bigger the motor the better, or possibly a mid drive. Noteworthy possibly, is that the gear driven hub also offers the best battery range. I went from a safe 25 mile range with the 1500w, to a just as safe 35 mile range with the MAC, with no other changes. WAY more power, and better range.

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 35381
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by dogman dan » Feb 15 2020 8:58am

Still less than 500 feet of vertical in one mile. Not saying that's not a hell of a hill, but its going to be easily slayed by most motor kits over 500 watts.

I would say, go with a kit that has a 500w rated motor, with 48v battery. That's a 1000w setup, which should have you going back up that hill at 15 mph or thereabouts, with brisk but not hard pedaling.

Specifically, I recommend the rear hubmotors with internal gears. They have lighter weight than direct drive motors, and coast nice when you want to coast. The ride remains a bit more bike like.

Battery won't have to be big, but it will need to be strong enough to dish out that 1000w draw on the return up the hill. Lots of options, but a typical 48v 10 ah shark type ( case mounts on the frame) battery would do fine, as well as opening up a big world of longer rides on weekends. 36v system and smaller motor will do the job, but struggle with it. So go a bit bigger and ride up the hill easy.

All this advice assumes you do not weigh 300 pounds or more. If you do, then go with a mid drive kit.

User avatar
E-HP   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1172
Joined: Nov 01 2018 9:20pm

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by E-HP » Feb 15 2020 1:15pm

dogman dan wrote:
Feb 15 2020 8:58am
Still less than 500 feet of vertical in one mile. Not saying that's not a hell of a hill, but its going to be easily slayed by most motor kits over 500 watts.
Agreed. Add statorade and you can to twice the distance. My cheap ebay 1000W DD hub is up to it. This is one hill by my house. The first mile is around the 500 ft climb you describe. I let the motor rest after the first mile, but it wasn't hot, just wanted to be safe, since I knew the short section near the top was 20%.
Image
Image

Of course, this is with pedaling.

Harllequin   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 14 2020 9:07pm

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by Harllequin » Feb 15 2020 1:32pm

Hi there guys.

Thank you for the replies.

Including my work bag I'll be about 200lb

I think looking at the kits the mid-drive looks to be the one I' go for, seems nice and easy to fit as well.

I'm ok with soldering and using a multi meter.

Measuring the bottom bracket I've got 67.5mm x 33mm to play with by the look of it.

I think I'd rather go for the higher 48 voltage and no less than a 750w motor.

My thinking is that I can fit it to my old muddy fox and if the lack of suspension is an issue I can replace the bike at a later ate. But for now I'd rather not add in that extra bit of expense.

The kits I've looked at on eBay seem to vary in price greatly for what seems like to my untrained eye the same spec kit.

Any further advice would be very much appreciated.

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8460
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by markz » Feb 15 2020 2:53pm

^ Yeah you are on the right track with more power. I say go with a mid drive BBSHD or a Leafbike 1500W direct drive.

I see Greentime on Aliexpress has more motors available, their store name is EVFitting.
https://evfittinggreentime.aliexpress.c ... 3510s54a48

EVFITTING (MXUS) E-bike Hub Spoke Motor 48V 3000W...
US $218.88 / piece

E-bike Hub Spoke Motor 60V 1500W Brushless DC Motor for...
US $96.88 / piece

EVFITTING E-bike Fatbike Motor 48Volt 1500W Brushless DC...
US $95.88 / piece


Shipping adds $125'ish

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 35381
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by dogman dan » Feb 16 2020 8:41am

Yeah, you always want more speed and power pretty quick, So I rarely advise for 36v systems.

Nothing wrong with a mid drive!! I just wanted to point out that I climbed a very similar length and grade hill commuting in a hot desert for years, and never melted a motor commuting, except for a very poor brushed motor in the beginning.

typical 48v direct drive kits with brushless motors did this climb with no problems at all. I weigh 200, so about 275 total on those commutes.

The hill is a killer, but its easy for any e bike designed for 1000w peak power. Or any wattage of mid drive.

Harllequin   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 14 2020 9:07pm

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by Harllequin » Feb 17 2020 10:19am

Well after a good bit of looking and taking into account your advice I've had to look at the lesser favoured options, mainly due to finances.

These are what I've come up with. Would you mind casting your eyes over my choices, I was really wanting a geared rear hub motor but can I hell fin any in the UK for a comparable price to the non geared ones. I would have also liked to go for mid drive but again alas price was the issue.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48v-13ah-Lit ... SwjhJdrR8S

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/750W-1000W-E ... 1438.l2649

Kind regards and thank you in avance.

bakaneko   100 W

100 W
Posts: 183
Joined: Oct 25 2018 6:25pm

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by bakaneko » Feb 17 2020 11:41am

Looks solid to me. Good battery, DD motor with variable PAS which is probably what you want. I personally dont prefer full throttles but you dont need it. I did a study on my YT study about most economical ebike setup and speeds. IMO, it is 48V 1000W motor at 20-22mph in the USA. A geared hub motor is better but you have to work with the market you are in. This is solid, IMO.

User avatar
E-HP   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1172
Joined: Nov 01 2018 9:20pm

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by E-HP » Feb 17 2020 1:32pm

Harllequin wrote:
Feb 17 2020 10:19am
Well after a good bit of looking and taking into account your advice I've had to look at the lesser favoured options, mainly due to finances.

These are what I've come up with. Would you mind casting your eyes over my choices, I was really wanting a geared rear hub motor but can I hell fin any in the UK for a comparable price to the non geared ones. I would have also liked to go for mid drive but again alas price was the issue.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48v-13ah-Lit ... SwjhJdrR8S

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/750W-1000W-E ... 1438.l2649

Kind regards and thank you in avance.
Your choices should work. I'd consider a couple of things:

1. Your commute is really short, so you likely won't have to charge every day. Perhaps once or twice a week. If you find a kit with regen braking, you could capture a lot of the energy expended on the climb, on the way down. Your commute is ideal for that, and you'd save a lot on brake pads.

2. If you could accept a slightly slower motor (e.g. slower than 35mph, like 30 or 25), it would likely have more torque and be happier on the climb. Either way, I'd factor in adding Statorade to the motor for efficient heat dissipation.

Lastly, without front suspension, I'd keep the speeds under 25 anyway for safety/control). You may want to save up for a suspension seatpost (not the crappy pogo stick kind, but a thudbuster or suntour) after commuting for a few weeks.

Harllequin   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 14 2020 9:07pm

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by Harllequin » Feb 17 2020 3:20pm

Thanks for the input E-HP.

The regenerative motor and a slower higher torque motor I've only been able to find shipped from China and I'd rather have a UK based supplier for warranty etc

As for the Statorade I like the idea, does it go under any other brand names? I can't seem to find it in the UK with the quick search I've done.

As for suspension, That has been taken out of my hands by my old trusty steed. The bloody bolts are solid on the pedals, might have something to do with being used in all weathers for 25 or so years!

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 35381
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by dogman dan » Feb 20 2020 8:00am

Don't need regen, or statorade. Your hill is easy,,, unless you are a huge guy.

Charge daily, or at least every second or third day. Don't run the battery to empty just cuz you can in a week. The battery will prefer many short cycles, to any number of deep discharges. Charge when its about half empty perhaps ideal.

But to keep the battery happiest, charge daily, but in the morning, just before you take off.

For lights, the current led flashlights are crazy bright. You just need a handlebar holder for them. I have found the holders on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R ... r&_sacat=0

markz   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8460
Joined: Jan 09 2014 11:38pm
Location: Alberta Canada

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by markz » Feb 20 2020 12:58pm

Don't bother with some mystery battery. Stay with the batteries you know are built right. Unit Pack Power has good packs.

Harllequin   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 14 2020 9:07pm

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by Harllequin » Feb 21 2020 9:26pm

I'd just like to say a huge thank you to all the people who kindly replied to my questions.

My battery turned up Wednesday and Friday the conversion kit was delivered.

I started at 4pm Friday, 1.50am Saturday everything has been installed / changed. 9 hours 50 minutes.

I've changed the tyre for the one that came with the bike, also changed my gear cassette for the one that came with the bike.

The problems I encountered were not too bad just took time to sort out.
1. The gear changers were integral to the brake levers on the bike so I had to buy new in order to fit supplied brake lever.
2. The battery didn't fit within the diamond of the frame, I thought it would be tight on this bike and it was. About 2mm length and height too big. Hence the pannier rack on the back. This also needed a bit of "fettling" due to the rear suspension setup.
3. The disk brake on the rear would not align up correctly, the disk was hitting off the brake mounting, I had to use E-Clips as spacers to push the frame out a little so the disc would clear mounting.
4. The cable from the battery to the control box had different connectors so I had some soldering to do.
5. The PAS sensor was suppose to go behind a cover, My bike does not have one, so I've stuck the sensor to the lower bracket and made a cover to also hold it in place, a belt and bracers thing!!
6. I can't get first gear at all. The rear derailleur is hitting off the motor. Not sure at all how I could fix that, other than fit a spacer between the motor and the gear cassette. With the motor though I'm sure I can live without first gear.

Cost wise.
Bike £179
Battery £219.60
Conversion Kit £154.99
Gear selectors £14.44
Kick stand £19.99
Handlebar Riser £9.99
Cable caps £3.99
Total £602
For all new stuff I think that has not been a bad outlay at all for a 1000w E-Bike with full suspension.

All in all I'm rather pleased so far. Tomorrow will be it's test once there is a break in the weather.

Again guys, thank you so much for your input!!
Attachments
Bike finished 1.jpg
Bike finished 1.jpg (361.42 KiB) Viewed 1086 times
Bike finished 2.jpg
Bike finished 2.jpg (431.01 KiB) Viewed 1086 times
Bike finished 3.jpg
Bike finished 3.jpg (436.35 KiB) Viewed 1086 times

User avatar
e-beach   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3280
Joined: Jan 10 2012 9:48pm
Location: Any Los Angeles area beach I am at. Or Santa Monica or possibly the south bay beaches.

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by e-beach » Feb 21 2020 10:56pm

Looking good. As for the little tweaks, well that is what diying is all about.
Favorite Quotes:
"This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." Chris Erskine
"At a certain point the entropy wins." Maria Helena Braga

Current Build: ProFlex 757 Expert full suspension. Yescomusa 36v 800w Rear DD, upgraded 10AWG solid core through axle phase wires. 15ah Headway, 1000+ cycles, 80% DOD 30A Tronsung controller.

Past: Trek 4500 Yescomusa 36v 800w front DD.
Liahona, Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front DD.
1992 Trek 800, Yescomusa 800w 36v front DD.

User avatar
E-HP   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1172
Joined: Nov 01 2018 9:20pm

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by E-HP » Feb 22 2020 12:43pm

Looking forward to the first ride report.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 35381
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by dogman dan » Feb 23 2020 7:25am

That should get er done. Superb choice of rack, it includes the feature I add to ordinary seat post racks. The additional brace to the frame.

It will ride a bit tail heavy, but nothing that will bother you too much on the street.

Harllequin   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 14 2020 9:07pm

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by Harllequin » Feb 26 2020 3:55am

Well guys, I was on night duty last night.

The ride down to work was the same as ever, only this time in the dark with lights on. The bike felt the same, as I expected.

The ride home though was a different matter. The first part of the ride was a little tougher with the extra weight of the bike and it's gubbins on.

In my excitement I forgot to set the tracker away, remembering at the important point, at the start of the run to THE HILL!!

As you can see from the pictures, what used to be a 25 minute slog turned into a 9 minute grin fest. Even hitting 15mph on the steepest part with brisk peddling.

All in all it took me just over 15 minutes to get home, rather than the 35 to 40 it used to take. Getting my heart up in the cardio zone for 10 of those minutes. The other 5 in the fat burning zone. Working 3 nights a week I can see nothing but good coming from this :) Last summer I would only use the bike once every few weeks, tonight as long as the snow holds off I'll be on the bike again tonight :D

Like I said in previous posts, thanks so much again for all your input, it has all been very valuable and very much appreciated.
Attachments
Elevation.jpg
Elevation.jpg (27.98 KiB) Viewed 929 times
Map.jpg
Map.jpg (43.35 KiB) Viewed 929 times
Speed.jpg
Speed.jpg (32.79 KiB) Viewed 929 times

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 35381
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by dogman dan » Feb 26 2020 9:03am

Nice, spot on what I expected, about 15 mph still, on the steep bits. That means your motor should never overheat, even on the hottest day of the year.

Betcha you start taking a longer way home, just for the fun of the ride. Time wasn't the problem, but the sweat was. I found less than 45 min riding was not enough, and started to take really long rides on weekends. I bought a second battery, and started doing 60 mile rides.

Harllequin   100 µW

100 µW
Posts: 7
Joined: Feb 14 2020 9:07pm

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by Harllequin » Feb 26 2020 1:45pm

If I could find a safe way to transport my bow and arrows to my local field archery club I'd be using it a lot. Its less than 10 mile away.
Alas this year I've decided to shoot English longbow. 72" is a bit long to transport on the bike. Unless I can attack a drain pipe to the side lol

User avatar
amberwolf   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 28925
Joined: Aug 17 2009 6:43am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth, Sol, Local Bubble, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group
Contact:

Re: Advice for a kit for a specific route

Post by amberwolf » Feb 27 2020 5:26am

about a decade back, i carried some skis on a bike easily enough:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15570&p=306463&hili ... er#p306463
Image

Post Reply