ebike build- responsability

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
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miro13car   1 MW

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ebike build- responsability

Post by miro13car » Dec 12 2019 5:06pm

I would like to read your thoughs, opinions on :
CONSTRUCTING EBIKE FOR SOMEBODY
I mean already 2 people were willing to pay me to costruct 30mph capable ebike using EPLUS kit.
What I am concerned about is legality of this , particularly what happens when he/she got in fatal accident.
Would any agreement, legal document help here?
Waver?
Your thoughts?
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miro13car   1 MW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by miro13car » Dec 12 2019 5:37pm

I would like to add
Of course 1000W , 50km/h ebike is illegal in Canada.
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obcd   100 W

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by obcd » Dec 12 2019 5:49pm

The way I see it, building such a bike isn't illegal. Riding it on public roads is illegal. So, it's the person riding it that is responsable for it's actions. To play safe, you could let him sign a paper that he is aware of the fact that the bike is not street legal.
Some might be willing to say they didn't knew and try to shift the responsability in your shoes.
On the other hand, if you build such a fast and powerfull bike, make sure you do it right and use quality materials.
I wouldn't sleep well knowing someone had an accident due to failing mechanics or electronics. But again, it's not because it has a high top speed that you have to ride it that fast all the time. You don't drive your car all the time at top speed either. It won't be very good for battery range doing that with the bike.
Elon Musk can go to a restaurant in his self build cybertruck that likely isn't street legal 'yet' either. :)

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by amberwolf » Dec 12 2019 7:57pm

What actually happens under any particular circumstance you can't really say until it happens. Law is always up for interpretation by those involved at the time, so you'll have to wait for something to happen to find out the results. :/

The things I think a lawyer could convince others to see as "your responsibility" would be:

--any problem that happens with the bike, especially one that "causes" or "allows" an incident of any kind (crash, fire, etc)

--anything about the bike that goes beyond legal limits set for "manufactured bikes"; a lawyer would probably be able to call you a manufacturer, since you are not building the bikes for yourself alone, but supplying them to others.

DIY stuff used for one's own self alone can sometimes (often?) bypass such restrictions, because it's not a complete item matching the regulatory restrictions.

For instance, here in the USA there is a federal CPSC regulation that restricts what a manufacturer can sell as an electric bike. But that doesnt' stop states from allowing bikes that exceed those limits. It only stops any manufacturer from selling any bike that exceeds those limits, within the USA. It doesnt' stop an individual from building something that exceeds them, as long as it still obeys the limits of whatever locality it's used in.

So, if I were you, I'd only make something that completely complies with all regulations any other manufacturer would have to comply with.

This is why I won't build anything for other people, just myself--too much potential liability. I've offered to help a number of locals with their own, but I've never been taken up on that. Seems that if they can't get it done for them, they'd rather not do it at all.

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by 2old » Dec 13 2019 11:05am

Really good answer above. The litigious nature of the US would preclude me from ever considering this. Don't think it's as bad in CA, but probably with your proximity, not that great. I have doubts about selling a used DIY e-bike, and probably would sell everything separately.

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E-HP   100 kW

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ebike build- responsability

Post by E-HP » Dec 13 2019 11:34am

A good lawyer (not to be confused with good in the ethical sense) can twist any case around in front of a jury.

It comes down to your net worth, which dictates what the lawyer may eventually get paid. Good lawyers cost money, unless you have a case where they can argue contingent on winning AND make even more money at, since they’re taking the risk.

So a good lawyer will take a case with a potential multi million dollar outcome, and sue McDonalds for making their coffee too hot to burn someone who drops it in their own lap. But they won’t take the same case if they’re only going to make a couple of thousand dollars.

PS. At minimum, don’t build an ebike for a lawyer.

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by MadRhino » Dec 13 2019 12:30pm

When I sell one, it is used and without a battery. The new owner is free to feed it the voltage and power that he wants. He does accept to buy a used bike as is, taking full responsibility for the speed and power that he will ride it.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by AngryBob » Dec 13 2019 12:45pm

Have them buy all the parts, bring them to you, and do all the work while you direct, and explain that this will cover your butt and you will have to charge them more because it will take much longer since they "helped".

OR - Sell it as a non-moving piece of art and the waiver would state the unit must never be moved under power as this could result in serious injury. Unrelated witnesses, notary, multiple copies, stored in separate locations.

Battery is still a potential risk. Sell the sculpture with no battery, but connections and mounts for the one the customer chooses to buy and install himself. I would give no advice whatsoever other than basic specs required, they pick and pay for it on their own.

You can safely sell a gun that is not safe to fire, or a car that is not safe to drive. In both cases, there is extensive paperwork that states the item is something other than what it appears to be, parts, scrap metal, wall hanging, etc., and that it is NOT to be used as it's original intended form.

Standard waivers are largely useless as you can't predict the future, there is no informed consent.

You could form a corporation, it is fairly cheap but you need to insulate yourself carefully, and since you are personally assembling it, liability still applies.

You could purchase liability insurance, better, get some information on exactly what would significantly reduce the premium, while also get an idea on the size of the rathole you are thinking of jumping into.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by dogman dan » Dec 14 2019 6:56am

Well, lets put it this way,,,, If you have no assets, lawyers will sue somebody else. But you build and sell an illegal bike, you'd better at least get a "off road only" disclaimer signed.

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by wturber » Dec 15 2019 12:17pm

E-HP wrote:
Dec 13 2019 11:34am
It comes down to your net worth, which dictates what the lawyer may eventually get paid. Good lawyers cost money, unless you have a case where they can argue contingent on winning AND make even more money at, since they’re taking the risk.

So a good lawyer will take a case with a potential multi million dollar outcome, and sue McDonalds for making their coffee too hot to burn someone who drops it in their own lap. But they won’t take the same case if they’re only going to make a couple of thousand dollars.
I think this is a good point. A legit business with insurance actually has a greater chance of being sued than some guy working out of the garage in a house that he rents. I'm not sure how things would work out if you own your house and/or have significant savings. Personally, I would want to risk it. I'd form an LLC, have insurance etc. Which makes these kind of part-time things much less attractive.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by MadRhino » Dec 15 2019 10:30pm

Building ebikes is not a good business anyway. I mean, there are much better and profitable ways to make a living. I build them to ride, and want no hassle when I sell one half the cost I did spend on it. When a friend does want one, I tell him how to build it by himself.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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wturber   10 MW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by wturber » Dec 15 2019 11:00pm

MadRhino wrote:
Dec 15 2019 10:30pm
When a friend does want one, I tell him how to build it by himself.
Seems the way to go to me as well. Some of the reasons for Grin being primarily a component sales and development company also apply to a would be custom builder
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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gogo   10 MW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by gogo » Dec 16 2019 12:24am

I would think an important distinction would be whether you are engaged in commerce. Governments like to regulate and tax commerce.
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miro13car   1 MW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by miro13car » Dec 16 2019 9:28am

That is why I direct people to shops which sell ebikes.
teaching how to build?
Non-technical person?
with no tools?
He wants to get on and start riding , no going to school.
Most people I meet are terrified when they find out about cost of building or buying quality ebike.
eBay kits being not quality .
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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by docw009 » Dec 16 2019 12:56pm

It's hard to build an ebike for less money than the low cost imports now available here in the US. And the quality of the import is probably better. You can get bikes with integrated batteries these days from Walmart for $500-600.

Granted, these are 18 mph bikes designed with pedal assist in mind.

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wturber   10 MW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by wturber » Dec 17 2019 12:01am

docw009 wrote:
Dec 16 2019 12:56pm

Granted, these are 18 mph bikes designed with pedal assist in mind.
... and relatively short ranges.
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

miro13car   1 MW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by miro13car » Dec 18 2019 9:51am

Most people just walk away from me when they find out about cost over 1000 bucks.
I explain to them that ebike build is not just the e drive.
But quality components
Example BB can be 15 dollars or can be 85 dollars,
Quality components which last cost money,
All comes down to what do people need ebike for?
Occasional summer days rides - go ahead buy BSO from Wallmart.
Commuting to work at least 300 days in a year - use quality US made components:
Chris King, Phill Woods, ..
Last edited by miro13car on Dec 18 2019 11:56am, edited 1 time in total.
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bakaneko   100 W

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by bakaneko » Dec 18 2019 10:04am

miro13car wrote:
Dec 18 2019 9:51am
Most people just walk away from me when they find out about cost over 1000 bucks.
I explain to them that ebike build is not just the e drive.
But quality components
Example BB can be 15 dollars or can be 85 dollars,
Quality components which last cost money,
All comes down to what do people need ebike for?
Occasional summer days rides - go ahead buy BSO from Wallmart.
Commuting to work at least 300 ays in a year - use quality US made components:
Chris King, Phill Woods, ..
It depends. I think hub kits from eBay are relatively good for the price. I had over 4k miles on my 36V 500W hub and went 160 miles one day (all day) with a ~500-600wH battery. This was an ultra budget build but it wasn't bad and definitely reliable commuter. I got a great deal on cheap scooter batteries for a friend and a killer deal on a $15 mountain bike on Craiglist. Just added outer tire liners and slime tube on back wheel and its gonna be a reliable first ebike for friend.

Total price was $150 for him since I gave him the hub motor (not using it for months). But with the hub, I would say with those good battery prices like $300 = $130 (36V500W hub with LED PAS) + $120 (36V16aH) + $15 used decent bike + $30 new tube/liners (new tube&liner = front, new slime tube+liner = rear). No need for speedometer its a 36V system LOL.

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miro13car   1 MW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by miro13car » Dec 18 2019 12:07pm

My point is that most people concentrate on e drive when they see ebike,
you can have a best ebike kit but if you cheap out on components you are going to have your hands dirty from costant fixing and tuning.
Lots of stolen bikes Craglist all over USA, no wonder they are deals.
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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by wturber » Dec 18 2019 7:39pm

miro13car wrote:
Dec 18 2019 12:07pm
My point is that most people concentrate on e drive when they see ebike,
you can have a best ebike kit but if you cheap out on components you are going to have your hands dirty from costant fixing and tuning.
My experience is that you don't have to go expensive, U.S. made to get high enough quality for regular commuting. My components are mostly pedestrian Shimano and they've given me zero grief in 10,000 miles. My biggest maintenance issue is brake wear and adjustment because I deal with about 1000 feet of total downhill each day and I'm not using regen. The next is waxing and rotating chains.

The only component quality/fitness issue I've had was the POS freewheel that came with the kit and the DC boost converters I'm using that seem to be susceptible to moisture condensation initiated failure (two now over the life of my bike.)
"Commuter - DC Booster"
Iron Horse 3.0 hardtail - 48V / 1000W / 470rpm generic Chinese DD Hub motor (ebay)
8 x 36v 4.3ah 10s 2P battery packs - 1500W 30A DC Boost Converter delivers 54v and about 1000 watts peak
53T/42T Sakae Road cranks - 30mph+ on flats
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90369

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by MadRhino » Dec 22 2019 12:08pm

miro13car wrote:
Dec 18 2019 9:51am
Most people just walk away from me when they find out about cost over 1000 bucks...
Imagine how many walk away when I tell them one of my USED bikes will cost them 4000$, and that is half the cost of a new one. But, I am not trying to sell them anyway, and find most riders incompetent for that kind of power-to-weight ratio.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
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Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by ScooterMan101 » Dec 22 2019 12:55pm

Sell them the bike without the battery .
Because
That way it is up to them to use a higher voltage battery that will get
them up to that speed.
Or sell the bike with a very small , cheapest 36 volt battery and adjust the display to only go the legal speeds for your area and tell them that if they
want to go over 20 mph / 28 mph , that they need to buy a higher voltage battery.

Do you have any assets like a house or stocks , etc. ?

If not , at least here in the U.S. a lawyer does not want to represent them if they try to sue you.
so they are out of luck , it would cost them money and they would not get anything , or less than the
cost of them trying to sue you.


miro13car wrote:
Dec 12 2019 5:06pm
I would like to read your thoughs, opinions on :
CONSTRUCTING EBIKE FOR SOMEBODY
I mean already 2 people were willing to pay me to costruct 30mph capable ebike using EPLUS kit.
What I am concerned about is legality of this , particularly what happens when he/she got in fatal accident.
Would any agreement, legal document help here?
Waver?
Your thoughts?
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by positiv » Jan 24 2020 7:30am

for my ebike I used a 500W conversion kit from ali, and Im totally satisfied. However already looking to build something much more powerfull.. exploring the options.

for my bike assembly, I used this guide.
https://voltariders.com/bafang-electric ... tric-bike/

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by Tommm » Jan 24 2020 7:54am

If you are making it for someone else, make sure it is either rain proof, or that they understand it isn't.

miro13car   1 MW

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Re: ebike build- responsability

Post by miro13car » Jan 24 2020 11:58am

building for somebody I would make sure
it is not just rain proof but also PROTECTED
I mean electrically protected
I mean :
overcurrent, overtemperature, thermal protection, etc.
no way I would installed eBay, China edrive/kit on his frame choice and lecture him about "monitoring" motor heat, touching motor after hill climb/hilarious/.
it would have to be fail-safe edrive/kit which protects itself.
on my ebikes I dont have to worry about going full throttle uphill, no way my motors will ever burn - thermal protection would not allow for this.
Eplus, Bionx

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