TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?

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dahu33   1 mW

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Joined: Sep 06 2014 6:05am
Location: Tokyo, Japan

TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?

Post by dahu33 » Oct 28 2019 10:34am

Early 2016, I've finished my second and last build to date: a 20" Dahon JetStream with a S06S controller and a Q100CST hub motor. It's a really fun bike to ride and I absolutely love it.

Image

I mostly use this "mini monster" for short/random commutes and sometimes longer one (like to go to work). It's basically 100% urban.

Last week my Q100CST died after a few years of good service. Now, I'm wondering if that is a good opportunity to switch to a mid-drive motor and I'm particularly interested in the TSDZ2 - Alfine 8-speed IGH combo.

I've never ridden a mid-drive before so I'm not 100% sure I would be happy with a TSDZ2 and I would love some input from the experts here.

What I like about my current build:
- great acceleration (just a few second to the top speed of 32kmh)
- silent/discreet
- light weight

What I'm excited about the TSDZ2:
- torque sensor
- open-source firmware (I'm a developer and I've been dreaming for years about being able to customize my ebike software)
- no more RPM/volt limitation (currently I have to fight against my hub motor above 32kmh)
- learning new stuff :)

What I'm worry about the TSDZ2:
- noise: it seems noisy in all the videos I found on youtube, is the motor way more noisy compared to a Q100CST?
- weight: any indication of how much heavier the TSDZ2 will feel compared to the Q100CST?
- acceleration: will I still get a decent acceleration up to the ~30kmh?

Please, help me to make the correct decision! Any feedback is welcome!

Thanks!

jimmyfergus   100 mW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?

Post by jimmyfergus » Oct 28 2019 2:04pm

There is a distinct gear whine with mine that I find slightly irritating. It's not loud, but it's audible.

The motor is, IIRC, 3.2kg (3.5kg?), but you will be discarding the bottom bracket, so it adds <3kg. My entire electrification adds about 4kg/9lb to my bike (52V mini-cube battery).

It'll go much faster than 30km/h. I peak at 40km/h on mine but only because I have limited gearing and spin out at that point. I think I could easily do 45-50kph with higher gearing and a solid amount of leg input.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?

Post by casainho » Nov 01 2019 12:14am

dahu33 wrote:
Oct 31 2019 11:53pm
I've created the thread below a few days ago but I haven't got the traction I was expecting. If anyone own or previously owned both a TSDZ2 and a Q100 or Q128, I would love their opinion and feedback there.

TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?
I did own both that motors before changing to the mid drive motors with TSDZ2.

I even started the project of OpenSource firmware development for KT motor controllers and I used that same motors to be driven by that controllers with our firmware!! -- I mean, the firmware just for the same controller you are using in your ebike, the S06S. This firmware is still being maintained and developed by other developers and is popular, you can find a thread on this forum.

For me, TSDZ2 provides much more torque at startup because of low gears and much higher speed of high gears, using much less battery power, meaning a stronger and lighter ebike. Also, TSDZ2 includes the torque sensor while that motors do not, you will have to buy it as an extra and install, each is not so easy.

TSDZ2 is way better for the ones looking to go to mountains doing MTB as also using use the same ebike daily on the city and riding at 45 kms/h on flat roads as I do -- here them, full suspension, large tires and rear panniers for load:
Image

But yes, I do more maintenance with TSDZ2 but I guess that is because I do now much more than I did with that hub motors, that I couldn't do anyway with them.

I would love to also have a bike like that, I own a Brompton but I do not want to install a motor on it, so someday I will use another folding bike.

Another advantage of TSDZ2 running our OpenSource firmware is that you can easily configure for any battery size, meaning you can DIY a battery with the weight and size optimized for typical ride on your Dahon. And quick change to another battery for longer range if you need and configure on the fly on the display.
If your ebike is smaller, lighter and has no rear panniers as mine (and you do not weight as much as me 105kgs), then for sure you can have a smaller and light battery pack: mine is 14S3P (42x 18650 cells, 500Wh), so 52V but probably you can go with a 36V motor and 36V battery, 10S2P (20x 18650 cells, 225Wh), which would be about only 47% of the size and weight of mine.

About the sound, the recent versions of TSDZ2 on the market, are very silent due to some mechanical changes.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

dahu33   1 mW

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Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?

Post by dahu33 » Nov 02 2019 2:43am

Thanks casainho, that's exactly the type feedback I was looking for! I will go for the TSDZ2 to replace my Q100CST motor.

Before I place an order on pswpower (which seems to be the cheapest place to get it from), is there any difference between the 36v and 48v version (max power, efficiency/heat issue, noise, etc...)?

I currently own a 10S5P but I'm thinking to build or buy a lighter one such as a 10S4P or a 13S3P.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?

Post by casainho » Nov 02 2019 3:07am

dahu33 wrote:
Nov 02 2019 2:43am
is there any difference between the 36v and 48v version (max power, efficiency/heat issue, noise, etc...)?
Read the wiki, there is a lot of information there about this. Or you may prefer to read instead this full thread ;-)
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

sysrq   100 W

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Re: TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?

Post by sysrq » Nov 02 2019 12:26pm

dahu33 wrote:
Nov 02 2019 2:43am
Thanks casainho, that's exactly the type feedback I was looking for! I will go for the TSDZ2 to replace my Q100CST motor.

Before I place an order on pswpower (which seems to be the cheapest place to get it from), is there any difference between the 36v and 48v version (max power, efficiency/heat issue, noise, etc...)?

I currently own a 10S5P but I'm thinking to build or buy a lighter one such as a 10S4P or a 13S3P.
The only difference between 36V and 48V TSDZ2 besides lower resistive loses (heating) I know from reports is that 36V ones have lower assistance levels on eco and tour modes. Many people using 48V version say that they use only eco mode, even on hills. Personally 36V version feels like it's working against the pedalling in eco and tour mode, only sport and turbo feels somewhat "normal" in that regard, although torque sensor feels more like either on or of depending on certain threshold of pedal pressure. All of this is highly subjective so that might not help much in this case.

Bigwheel   100 W

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Location: Cape Meares, OR

Re: TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?

Post by Bigwheel » Nov 02 2019 2:41pm

sysrq wrote:
Nov 02 2019 12:26pm
dahu33 wrote:
Nov 02 2019 2:43am
Thanks casainho, that's exactly the type feedback I was looking for! I will go for the TSDZ2 to replace my Q100CST motor.

Before I place an order on pswpower (which seems to be the cheapest place to get it from), is there any difference between the 36v and 48v version (max power, efficiency/heat issue, noise, etc...)?

I currently own a 10S5P but I'm thinking to build or buy a lighter one such as a 10S4P or a 13S3P.
The only difference between 36V and 48V TSDZ2 besides lower resistive loses (heating) I know from reports is that 36V ones have lower assistance levels on eco and tour modes. Many people using 48V version say that they use only eco mode, even on hills. Personally 36V version feels like it's working against the pedalling in eco and tour mode, only sport and turbo feels somewhat "normal" in that regard, although torque sensor feels more like either on or of depending on certain threshold of pedal pressure. All of this is highly subjective so that might not help much in this case.
I had a TSDZ2 running the 52v/15A controller and I found that eco was all I needed for anywhere I wanted to go and only used other options once in a great while, mostly on the road. However I now have an 18A 48v that I find is useless in eco and the next two levels are the ones I find myself in. I kind of miss the days of just set and forget.....

john61ct   100 GW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid-drive vs Q100CST hub motor?

Post by john61ct » Nov 02 2019 4:02pm


Bigwheel wrote:I had a TSDZ2 running the 52v/15A controller and I found that eco was all I needed for anywhere I wanted to go and only used other options once in a great while, mostly on the road. However I now have an 18A 48v that I find is useless in eco and the next two levels are the ones I find myself in. I kind of miss the days of just set and forget.....
So everything else the same, just the 4V difference in pack voltage makes that much difference?


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