High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
ScooterMan101   10 MW

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by ScooterMan101 » Oct 16 2019 11:57am

The video's of motorcycle riders in and around London ride much like that , regarding lane splitting and passing so he is not at all an idiot , he is not doing anything many others do not do ... he just rides a little fast for an e-bike .
If he is a seasoned Motorcycle Rider then all his moves were well within his ability . Some people have talent to ride fast ...others might see that as dangerous but then how much of the general population does Hang Gliding or Paragliding or Skydiving , etc. You see him slow down many times in the video when he could have ridden faster at that time and place .

Also look at his bike, He has a good quality triple crown fork ( parhaps a few years old Boxxer ) and good brakes XT for the front , not sure of the make and model of the back but I see them on Down Hill bikes that go over 60 mph down hill all the time.
Then add to the fact that when you look at videos of Asia and India you see scooters driving/riding like this all the time, even by very young riders and older riders.

Come to California and ride a motorcycle , this video is typical of many MC riders here . ( and for the Asian Countries and India )
Although I ride more like the two motorcycles that you see in the video my self, and he did 2 or 3 lane splitting moves that I personally would have would not have done. I do not ride like that on my E-Bike or even Sport Motorcycle, but then again I am older now and more conservative in my riding style as I get older .

Also note : Look at his bike when he stops at a bus stop to check the temp of his hub . That Bike is brand new, just think for a minute before judging ... Anyone with a new bike would want to test it's limit's , you can bet that he will not be riding like that once the new bike thrill is over. He will at some point slow down to more normal traffic speeds .


So do not give fuel to the Politician's and Swamp Bureaucrat's that want to take more money from us in the Guise of License and Registration Fees $$$ . He is after all riding a e-bike, not gas engine motorcycle, he is helping the Planet
in that Regard .

eleven6 wrote:
Oct 06 2019 5:08pm
Chanced upon a (5 min) clip of a total idiot today


What do you think,
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by john61ct » Oct 16 2019 3:31pm

Sorry, head out to sparsely traveled country roads for your testing.

Extreme sports taking such risks have no place on roads that densely traveled.

I welcome more stringent enforcement.

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by E-HP » Oct 16 2019 3:50pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Oct 16 2019 11:57am

Come to California and ride a motorcycle , this video is typical of many MC riders here . ( and for the Asian Countries and India )
Although I ride more like the two motorcycles that you see in the video my self, and he did 2 or 3 lane splitting moves that I personally would have would not have done. I do not ride like that on my E-Bike or even Sport Motorcycle, but then again I am older now and more conservative in my riding style as I get older .
The environment has gotten a lot better for motorcycles in California, with respect to lane sharing. It used to be more challenging, with idiots trying open doors when they see bikes coming up, etc. I think there's now a better awareness that it's legal, and finally a realization that if there wasn't lane sharing, those bikes would be part of the congestion. Cars now give a wide berth when bikes come through, and the relationship between the bikes and cars has really improved over the last 20 years.

I get the frustration, and jealousy that someone is going to get to their destination a hour before you will, and why shouldn't everyone have to suffer the same as the folks stuck in traffic, but most of that has been replaced with the realization that lane sharing benefits everyone. Sure, there are still some drivers that will be startled or given "a fright" when a bike wizzes by unexpectedly, but you'd have to write a lot more laws to protect people against be startled, not only by bikes, if that were the bar.

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by donn » Oct 16 2019 4:44pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:
Oct 16 2019 11:57am
So do not give fuel to the Politician's and Swamp Bureaucrat's that want to take more money from us in the Guise of License and Registration Fees $$$ . He is after all riding a e-bike, not gas engine motorcycle, he is helping the Planet in that Regard .
Tell them, not us. We don't control who sees this video, or sees this guy on the roads, and we don't have any influence over what they think. If we did, the existing e-bike regulations would be different.

I think the point rather is, they aren't going to see it like we do. They're going to see what looks like crazy shit to them, and call the police / there ought to be a law, etc. They're going to say, gas or electric, that's a motorcycle and needs to be regulated as such. Maybe not, but if that's how it is, the outcome is bad for everyone, and there's no point in coming here to defend it.

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 16 2019 5:51pm

Well it's not an E-bike issue, its a driver thing. There is a age to speed ratio, I am sure most have noticed. The younger you are the faster you go and as you age your speed gets slower. Two examples, Young example he's going to hurt someone, Old example, Wished he would drive it or park it.
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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by bhtooefr » Oct 18 2019 7:42am

donn wrote:
Oct 06 2019 11:26pm
What I think is funny - that's England? where the story as I've heard it is that bicycles are limited to something awfully feeble like 250W.
It's a bit more complicated than that, as the 250 W limit in Europe is not a 250 W hard limit, unlike our 750 W limit, it's instead given as a "maximum continuous rated power", which is the "maximum 30 minutes power" per UNECE regulation 85. That regulation defines it as the average power the motor makes over a period of 30 minutes, within a speed range that supports >90% of maximum power, and at a power setting that is the manufacturer's best estimate of the maximum 30 minute power.

The intent, I believe, of the regulation being written that way was to account for thermal limits, so you could do short-term overpowering of a motor, but spend time at lower power to cool it down. How it actually gets used, though, is manufacturers making whatever power they want, and then using software limits to stay within the rating.

So, in e-bikes, you have "250 W" drives that actually put out 500-600 W peak (the previous-gen Bosch Performance Line CX was rated for 600 W peak, and AFAIK the 2020-spec is even more powerful, but Bosch doesn't publish peak power any more, just torque). We're actually getting close to the point where a "250 W" drive can be legal in Europe and not here in the US without being detuned...

In motorcycles, you have "11 kW" electrics that are pushing out as much as 44 kW (and competing against 11 kW peak 125 cc gasoline motorcycles), so that they can be fast but ridden on a license meant for new motorcycle riders. (I do feel like Zero making an "11 kW" motorcycle that peaks at 44 kW is just asking for regulators to put some sort of hard limit on the definition of "continuous power" (AFAIK this has already happened in the type approval procedures for S-Pedelecs, with a 1.6x limit on peak power relative to continuous power), really, or to switch regulatory definitions to net power instead of continuous power. The entire point of the 125 cc/11 kW regulation was to keep less-skilled riders from wrapping themselves around trees (or through cars) at high speed, or throwing themselves off of the back of a powerful motorcycle, and this subverts that.)

However, there is a 25 km/h (15.5 MPH) limit on assist for EU-legal e-bikes. And, they're pedal assist only. (There is also another class, the S-Pedelec, which as I understand is effectively treated as a moped by EU regulation - with insurance and licensing requirements - but individual EU member nations have created it as a subclass of 45 km/h mopeds that has lower power limits (350-500 W continuous instead of 4000 W continuous) and a pedal assist requirement, but gets limited bicycle infrastructure permissions that mopeds don't necessarily get).

For the video depicted, my own stance on this kind of thing is that ultimately, there's enough kinetic energy to do some quite serious damage to other people (as well as the rider, and someone has to pay for that, too: in a single-payer system, it's the government; in a private insurance system, it's the insurance companies and in some cases the medical providers themselves if any remaining bills are discharged in bankruptcy). This is why we require people in cars, on motorcycles, and sometimes on mopeds to carry insurance, be licensed, carry certain equipment (turn signals, mirrors, brake lights, horns, adequate tires and brakes, that kind of thing), and undergo proficiency testing (as much of a joke as this is in the US). This thing performs like a motorcycle, so IMO, it should be regulated as one.

Additionally, the reason why e-bikes are allowed path access, while S-Pedelecs and mopeds are only allowed very limited path access, and electric motorcycles aren't allowed any, despite them all being similarly sized, boils down to... bicycle paths and lanes are intended for the protection of slower riders. A 25 km/h e-bike (or even a US 20 MPH one, albeit on the upper end) is going about the same speed as average fully-human-powered bicycles, and therefore needs similar protection and is compatible. A 45 km/h S-Pedelec (or equivalent 28 MPH Class 3 e-bike in the US) or a moped is faster and therefore is more compatible with car traffic, and less compatible with bicycle traffic. A full-on electric motorcycle is as compatible as a bike's going to get with car traffic, and it's not compatible at all with bicycle traffic even if it's bicycle sized. So, putting some vestigial pedals on to be able to ride it on a bike path doesn't solve the problem. (And yes, you could say, "use restraint, just go slower on paths". People won't, though (I mean, they don't use restraint and go slower in their car, either), and enforcement on paths is hard, especially with unplated vehicles. Have a requirement for vehicles of that performance to carry a plate and don't let them even be there, and it's far easier to enforce.)

That's independent of the environmental benefits of riding an electric motorcycle (whether or not it has pedals) instead of an ICE motorcycle, mind you. There's other ways to make incentives to do that, without compromising on safety.
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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by MadRhino » Oct 18 2019 8:39am

Some just like making simple things complicated.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by Ianhill » Oct 18 2019 8:42am

A light weight velodrome bike can kill when striking a pedestrian at full peddle speed so the extra mass of an ebike smashes people flying if struck in worst circumstances.

The law always takes worst circumstances into account thats why the laws exists it's not to protect the riders but those around them same as car rules no one cares if one does a thousand miles per hour through s bends we only care when others are at risk of Injurys through stupidity thats why we have laws stupid people and no one can shy away and say they have not done something stupid at least once apon a time it's part of being humans risk taking is programmed into us.

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by sleepy_tired » Oct 18 2019 12:05pm

The law exists to suit the purpose of the people that wrote the laws. Nothing more. Nothing less. When you cut away the bullshit and see the sausage factory for what it is, what it does, and how it works then you'll realize that is the honest truth.

The "extra mass" of a ebike is going to be less then the extra mass of a fatty cruising down a hill at 35mph.

If you think a idiot on a ebike is dangerous just wait till you see what happens when the ebike is illegal and he takes a loan out for a used BMW and starts driving that around like asshole.

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by miro13car » Oct 18 2019 4:47pm

Definitely
All depends who rides not what .
Road bikers riding in groups are far more dangerous than repectful BOMBER 3000W rider.
When they road bikers ride they basically race and get very frustrated when forced to slow down.
Of course as routine they do not use bells. They use bikpath as racing track.
But their bikes are more or less regular looking road bikes in contrast to my ebike,
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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by MadRhino » Oct 19 2019 12:33am

Those who write the laws in the hope to save 2 pedestrians a year from stupid bike riders, are the same who are giving the industry licence to kill with chemicals, poisons and pollution... when they are not just sending your kids to war.

99.9% of riders will never hurt anyone but themselves in their lifetime riding. There are trafic laws already, to protect pedestrians and people on the street. There is no need for specific laws applied to ebikes. How can you justify allowing unlimited HP to 2 tons vehicles, while limiting a bike to 1/4 HP?
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by wturber » Oct 19 2019 1:00am

MadRhino wrote:
Oct 19 2019 12:33am
How can you justify allowing unlimited HP to 2 tons vehicles, while limiting a bike to 1/4 HP?
The theory is that they are trying to draw a line for determining when license, registration, extensive vehicle safety standards, and insurance should be required. That said, they are looking at the wrong criteria for drawing that line IMO. They use speed as the main regulating criteria for automobiles - not horsepower. And that's what should be used for low-powered, light classes as well. Limit net weight and speed - not power. If you limit power, it should be a liberal/permissive one.
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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by dogman dan » Oct 19 2019 11:25am

Ha ha, the guy rides exactly how I used to. When I was 25, I had to give up motorcycles for awhile or die.

I just had no sense at all. The bike would just take my brain, and I'd ride like a maniac, even drunk. Chances are, he'll go splat before any cop notices him. They are just too busy with the street heroin and fake oxy problem to notice till he's a smear on the street. ( in the US anyway) I hope he doesn't go splat, but where I live there is a dead motorcycle rider a week on the news.

All I can say is, he's better off if he can find less traffic to ride that thing at full speed. When I was training for the death races, I took my 50 mph ebike out early on sunday mornings. Treat cars like slalom poles, and you will end up under one.

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by markz » Oct 19 2019 1:20pm

So true, bicycles are being used by 80 lb crack heads, and 300+ lb heavy weights, and 500lbs rickshaws, and cargo bikes. Those kind of weights are cant compare to the wimpy dinky 250W (in the UK), 500-750W (N.A.) .

Here they just made speeding on an ebike on a pathway a $500 ticket, while cars get fined 1/3 that for almost murdering pedestrians and cyclists. Governments logic is useless and pathetic. I recently went through a huge ordeal as the Alberta Government changed up their Automobile Registry format for licensing. Online scheduling for road tests while rarely any registry even have a car to rent. Its fuckingpathetic! Then I go over to pick up my city buss pass in the middle of the month at the recreation centre, instead of the transit offices downtown.... and they treat us like its a favor for them to allow us to pick up bus passes there all the while not rotating the lineups. Paid facility users get service first, even if they are walking up to the counter. No rotation. Perhaps a combo deal might work, pay to get in and pay for a bus pass, I thought of trying that.

As for licensing - I called up a few registries and the clerks said "Just rent a car from Hertz" I didnt say to them that they were retarded. Another clerk had a good solution which made sense, to call a driver training company to rent a car. I could only imagine how much it would cost for a private company driver trainer to drive their car to the registry, wait around for 10-20 minutes so someone can do a road test with someone else (government certified road tester.) But it was a solution, and probably the only solution, aside for the one registry in a city of 1.4M people, and 2-3 dozen registries. Imagine going to a city of say Red Deer AB, a population of 100K with probably no registry with a car available. They'd have to hop on a Red Arrow or EBus, that costs $55-$80 one way, and go to Edmonton or Calgary for their one registry in a city for car rental.

Now, lets go a step further here. Grand Prarie, AB which has 60K and no bus service. What the fuckdo those people do. Or any small town.

Its absolutely crazy! Just bonkers! Are they suppose to ask to use a strangers car? Are they suppose to put an ad up on the online classifieds, stating they want to rent someones car which they'd want $150+ for the 10 minutes.



wturber wrote:
Oct 19 2019 1:00am
MadRhino wrote:
Oct 19 2019 12:33am
How can you justify allowing unlimited HP to 2 tons vehicles, while limiting a bike to 1/4 HP?
The theory is that they are trying to draw a line for determining when license, registration, extensive vehicle safety standards, and insurance should be required. That said, they are looking at the wrong criteria for drawing that line IMO. They use speed as the main regulating criteria for automobiles - not horsepower. And that's what should be used for low-powered, light classes as well. Limit net weight and speed - not power. If you limit power, it should be a liberal/permissive one.
Last edited by markz on Oct 19 2019 1:31pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by Magsy » Oct 19 2019 1:21pm

This is the UK and realistically, this is so far past being an ‘ebike’ I’m not sure I see the issue in terms of knock on regulation. He is on the road with the big boys, not belting around a trail with soft bodies on a souped up BBS HD which is where the clamp down will come.

Here this would immediately (IMO) be treated like any other moving traffic violation; he is riding a motorbike. We have tons of people riding about on motocross bikes illegally.

The risk (from his standpoint) is that here in the UK he would lose his driving licence because points/bans/fines apply across all modes of powered transport at once...it is a single licence and that means you are not driving car again for a while. He would lose it for no insurance, not being compliant with regs (no inspection) and it being unregistered.

This is what keeps us Brits in check.

His riding is mostly legal

It’s a great series of videos, credit to the guy for the build and riding; I want one!

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by markz » Oct 19 2019 1:37pm

^ If the fuzz can catch him!
Riding like like, I am sure the rider knows whats coming and will try to outrun the fuzz. It'd be too easy to outrun the fuzz, and the chances of getting away are quite good. What cities in the UK actually have a fuzz helicopter? It looks like a lot, and they probably travel well out of their home territory even on general routines.

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by khorse » Oct 21 2019 4:33pm

We don't have "fuzz" at home in England, we've got police. I don't know what a fuzz is.

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by neptronix » Oct 21 2019 4:50pm

You're a free man when they're not looking and/or you're pedaling while going well beyond what's legal and your bike doesn't look like an enduro fridge on wheels.

Ride fast yet responsible and appear to be a rule follower you it's amazing how little trouble you'll have. Use me and other high power builders as a canary in the coalmine if you need more confidence :lol: i literally had people on my youtube threaten to call the cops and i got cyberstalked and all kinds of shit. I've had cops make comments but never do anything. The reality is.. this is one of the least important things to most law enforcement departments unless you live in an area where they really have a stick up their ass. In that case, the best course of action is to move :mrgreen:

Either ways, worrying about losing freedom is a loss of freedom in itself. Because you feel crushed by the man without him even lifting a finger. Don't do that. Find what you can get away with. There's a surprising lack of people getting busted on this forum for things that even shock ME.
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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by MadRhino » Oct 21 2019 5:39pm

Yep. Pedal at all times and don’t run stop signs, you can get away with hard acceleration and occasional speed bursts.

The police is looking for trafic violations, not the watts fed. Ride like a jerk, even with a legal bike, they will find a way to get you off the streets.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by wturber » Oct 21 2019 6:00pm

At this stage in my life my biggest concern would be any kind of liability in the unlikely case of a collision of some kind where I was at fault. Operating an uninsured and unregistered motor vehicle in that situation could end up being a "bad thing." And I don't think many insurance companies want to insure an illegal activity. For instance one company will sell you ebike insurance for ebikes with up to 750 watts of power. If I were younger, not married and had virtually no assets to lose, then I might be less concerned about unlikely events.
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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by john61ct » Oct 21 2019 7:20pm

khorse wrote:We don't have "fuzz" at home in England, we've got police. I don't know what a fuzz is.
Da Filth, innit?

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Oct 21 2019 8:04pm

If he said thank you instead of frock you to everyone he passed that’s better.
Frooooooooooock!

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by neptronix » Oct 21 2019 8:06pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Oct 21 2019 8:04pm
If he said thank you instead of frock you to everyone he passed that’s better.
What a nice world that'd create!
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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by neptronix » Oct 21 2019 8:06pm

wturber wrote:
Oct 21 2019 6:00pm
If I were younger, not married and had virtually no assets to lose, then I might be less concerned about unlikely events.
Well i just played my hand on that one...
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: High power ebike means none of the rules apply to me

Post by markz » Oct 21 2019 8:37pm

It is sad to say, that English is a second and third language now :(
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:
Oct 21 2019 8:04pm
If he said thank you instead of frock you to everyone he passed that’s better.
Frooooooooooock!

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