My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

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scrambler   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22 2017 1:11am

FREYebikes wrote:
Dec 21 2017 10:48pm
hi, our bike frame width is 148mm with thru axle 148*12mm.
Do you have any recommend IGH to match our bike or we can test?
Thank you in advance for your reply.
You want to find out which IGH can support the Ultra Torque and power, then choose the one with the widest gear range.

The one we know works, is the Rohloff, Very rugged, best 526% gear range, but it is very expensive and has more gears than really needed (14).

Next in line to test would be the Alfine 8 as suggested (307% gear range), and if that is not strong enough, may be the Sturmey archer 5 (243% gear range) also mentioned in an earlier thread.

Finally there is the Upcoming NuVinci N380X (not the existing N380) with a 380% gear range. On paper it is not supposed to handle the 160Nm of the Ultra, but it may.

As a main manufacturer, one thing you can do is try to explain to IGH Manufacturer that there is a strong need for IGH for High power electric bikes like the ones using the Ultra motor, to motivate them to develop stronger versions of their IGHs.
Last edited by scrambler on Dec 22 2017 1:23am, edited 1 time in total.

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robocam   10 kW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 22 2017 1:15am

The 160 Nm rating is for the crank output. You have to convert it based on your gear ratio because the torque at the IGH depends on the size of the crankset chainring. It would only be 160 Nm if the rear sprocket were 44T, which would be a 1:1 ratio. What's a typical tooth count for an IGH sprocket?
scrambler wrote:
Dec 22 2017 1:11am
...On paper it is not supposed to handle the 160Nm of the Ultra, but it may...

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22 2017 1:20am

FREYebikes wrote:
Dec 21 2017 11:04pm
I try to answer your below question:
Bafang design the motor not 0 speed to start the throttle because of security and safety consideration under an unexpected sudden start. If want to make the throttle work, must set not 0, it can be a very little number. have you got my meaning?
If the goal is to prevent someone to turn on the throtle while not on the bike (which can be dangerous), I would say a minimum speed slighly above walking speed would do, like 5km/h (3 mph).
An other way would be to only activate the throtle if there is pressure on the pedal, which would imply the rider is on the bike not off the bike. That would require that throtle activation can be linked to the torque sensor reading.

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scrambler   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22 2017 1:27am

robocam wrote:
Dec 22 2017 1:15am
The 160 Nm rating is for the crank output. You have to convert it based on your gear ratio because the torque at the IGH depends on the size of the crankset chainring. It would only be 160 Nm if the rear sprocket were 44T, which would be a 1:1 ratio. What's a typical tooth count for an IGH sprocket?
That would depend on where you want to use the IGH range most and on the wheel diameter, but I would say around 16 / 44 is the likely ratio you would want to use.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 22 2017 1:30am

Ok, so if you use a 16 tooth sprocket, the torque at the IGH would only be 58 Nm max. Can it handle that?
scrambler wrote:
Dec 22 2017 1:27am
robocam wrote:
Dec 22 2017 1:15am
The 160 Nm rating is for the crank output. You have to convert it based on your gear ratio because the torque at the IGH depends on the size of the crankset chainring. It would only be 160 Nm if the rear sprocket were 44T, which would be a 1:1 ratio. What's a typical tooth count for an IGH sprocket?
That would depend on where you want to use the IGH range most and on the wheel diameter, but I would say around 16 / 44 is the likely ratio you would want to use.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Tom L » Dec 22 2017 2:51am

robocam wrote:
Dec 22 2017 1:30am
Ok, so if you use a 16 tooth sprocket, the torque at the IGH would only be 58 Nm max. Can it handle that?
It’s rated for 500W and 100Nm.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 22 2017 3:45am

Thanks. For trail riding, I think it would be more than adequate. The Ultra would be sending it about half the continuous torque rating, and the average torque would be much lower. I wonder why it has a power limit. Does this mean it will overheat if the power exceeds 500W continuously? This should also mean that it can handle bursts that exceed 500W but stay within the torque limit. Can anyone think of any other reason why it would have a power limit in addition to a torque limit?

If the older N380 can almost handle a BBSHD, then this new N380x should have no problem with it or the Ultra.

My concern is that I don't know if I would be satisfied with a 380% gear range. If I'm going to pay extra for this, I want at least a 500% range, which makes the Rohloff my only option. Honestly though, I haven't really had any major issues with the standard cassette & rear derailleur setup, so I think I'll stick with that for now, but I'll be curiously watching what you guys come up with, =) and maybe I'll change my mind someday.
Tom L wrote:
Dec 22 2017 2:51am
It’s rated for 500W and 100Nm.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by icehunter » Dec 22 2017 10:42am

Wikipedia has a table with the gearing range, see below.
"A range of 300% or 3:1 means that for the same pedalling speed a cyclist could travel 3 times as fast in top gear as in bottom gear (assuming sufficient strength, etc.). Conversely, for the same pedalling effort, a cyclist could climb a much steeper hill in bottom gear than in top gear."

The key here is that they assume human strength and same pedalling effort. With a motor you have max ultra strength and when using the throttle at max, the bike probably goes faster than your feet can keep up with. The effective range of a 7-speed hub gear is therefore probably much greater than 300% when using the motor.
The Rohloff has a 526% range but the mean step between gears is 13,5% vs. 20,1% for 7-speed hub gears, which explains why Rohloff users tend to shift two or more gears at a time. A typical car has 30% step range.

7-speed hub gears give 300% range
8-speed hub gears give 307% range
typical 1 chainring derailleur setup (1x10, 11-36) give 327% range
road 1 chainring derailleur setup (1x11, 11-36) give 327% range
NuVinci continuously variable transmission[8] give 380% range
11-speed hub gears give 409% range
Rohloff Speedhub 14-speed hub gear give 526% range

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_gearing

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22 2017 1:00pm

robocam wrote:
Dec 22 2017 1:30am
Ok, so if you use a 16 tooth sprocket, the torque at the IGH would only be 58 Nm max. Can it handle that?
Yes it does, but it is not supposed to be able to handle 1500W...
I am still hopeful for a non hardcore use, as some people did install the old N380 on a BBS02, and that was not supposed to work either.

But until the Hub comes out and can be tested, there is little way to be sure. If it does work, it would be the best option, as 380% range and CVT is a great proposition. Plus the NuVinci has an optional Harmony controller that gives you electronic shifting or automatic cadence based shifting, which both make riding a real pleasure.
Last edited by scrambler on Dec 22 2017 2:59pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22 2017 1:20pm

robocam wrote:
Dec 22 2017 3:45am
If I'm going to pay extra for this, I want at least a 500% range, which makes the Rohloff my only option.
Indeed it is, start saving :)

Interesting news about the Rohloff, they recently introduced an E-14 electronic shifter. In the first release it will only work integrated with the Bosch motors with the ability to have less virtual gears ( like shift 3 gears at a time), but I heard that they are planning on a standalone shifter that would allow it to be used on any existing Rohloff hub and any bike. Unknown is if the standalone shifter will have the ability to define virtual gears too.
Last edited by scrambler on Dec 22 2017 2:41pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Robleman » Dec 22 2017 2:26pm

FREYebikes wrote:
Dec 21 2017 10:48pm
hi, our bike frame width is 148mm with thru axle 148*12mm.
Do you have any recommend IGH to match our bike or we can test?
Thank you in advance for your reply.
Robleman wrote:
Dec 19 2017 4:20pm
Just to share my experience with IGH Alfine 8 combined with a bafang BBSHD: awesome!

It is working without problems for about 8 months. Chainline is good. 1,5KW peak power ok. Range is more than enough for single track riding.

Only issue to take care of is the cable regulation, its very sensible so if you don't set it well it makes noises as its going to break. But once its done ok it keeps the setting for long.

So I recommend the Alfine 8 for middrives to everyone.👍
Hi, i'm sorry my Alfine 8 is for 135mm width not 148mm. This is the only IGH I have tested so far.

But you can find very good and detailed info about several IGH at Sheldon Brown pages:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/nexus8.shtml

Also info about Nuvinci and Bafang here:
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/01/0 ... -them-all/

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 22 2017 3:30pm

I just went outside to test this, and the throttle and torque sensor both work from a dead stop. =)
scrambler wrote:
Dec 21 2017 12:46pm
...On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.

Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.

Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22 2017 4:30pm

Thanks

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robocam   10 kW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 22 2017 6:10pm

Thanks, but I think we need an update. Most high-end mountain bikes these days come with a 40-50T sprocket in the cassette, so that's up to a 500% range already. Some popular mountain bikes still come with a triple chainring crankset, so their range exceeds even what the Rohloff can offer.

I think it really depends on preferences and how the rider is going to use the bike. If you're commuting on mostly level terrain, I imagine any of these ranges will be more than adequate. If you're heavy on the throttle or assist or if you're super fit, a 380% or smaller range might be fine. But if you still want to use it as a regular mountain bike and/or you like that 22/24T chainring up front in your double or triple chainring crankset (or maybe you even use a 26T in a 1x setup!) or if you tow a trailer(s), you're probably going to want that 526% range.

For reference, the Frey bike has a 418% range.
icehunter wrote:
Dec 22 2017 10:42am
...typical 1 chainring derailleur setup (1x10, 11-36) give 327% range...
Having more closely spaced ratios can be advantageous to road (and even MTB) riders that are looking for the perfect gear to maintain an optimal cadence. Road cassettes have much more closely spaced ratios.

Cars are coming out with 10-speed transmissions now =)
icehunter wrote:
Dec 22 2017 10:42am
...The Rohloff has a 526% range but the mean step between gears is 13,5% vs. 20,1% for 7-speed hub gears, which explains why Rohloff users tend to shift two or more gears at a time. A typical car has 30% step range...

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 22 2017 8:57pm

Robleman wrote:
Dec 22 2017 2:26pm
Hi, i'm sorry my Alfine 8 is for 135mm width not 148mm. This is the only IGH I have tested so far.
So question for the experts:
- The Alfine 8 SG-S505 has an over lock nut width of 135mm, but an axle length of 187mm and a chainline of 47.7mm
- The Frey Am1000-S has a rear dropout of 148mm and a chainline of 48mm.
> Chainline is good
- 148mm (I assume internal) dropout means probably around 160mm External dropout width
Can Frey (or owner) confirm the External rear dropout width ?

That leaves 187-160 = 27mm, or 13.5mm on each side.

Would that be enough to secure the wheel, using spacers inside?
I understand you could also squeeze the swing arm a bit without affecting the whole assembly.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by nataS@phnet.fi » Dec 28 2017 1:33pm

Finally got my cable working, no idea why i couldn´t use it with my laptop so i just had to wait for my girlfriend to leave the house and sneek the bike indoors straight cross to my PC 8) . Now the throttle works as intended and the bike feels much more capable in paths - smaller assist and in hard places just use the throttle to get by.
Think i´ll try Robocams findings later, now to a longer testdrive.

Support has been great from the factory from day one if someone is thinking ´bout buying a bike from them, another great place aside EM3EV im my opinion.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by oleaiz » Dec 30 2017 10:53am

Hello! My bike arrived yesterday. It was almost 2 weeks in shipping. I guess because of Christmas and New Year rush. Battery will arrive next week on Thursday or Wensday. I got the software and cable from Frey. Can you share your programming experience and settings? Happy New Year!😁

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Pctree » Dec 30 2017 12:06pm

Just to add a little to the conversation a bit, I have run a few ig hubs on various different bikes, I hate derailleurs ! I started with a nuvinci, it blew up in a catastrophic way. Tried 11 speed alfine, leaked like crazy and ended up not shifting. Tried 8 speed Nexus, lasted longer but still crapped out . I now have a shimano 3 speed. All of these were used on a fat tire bike with a bbshd set on 1 assist so low power.

I single track ride on pretty steep terrain and love to listen to music hence the requirement for no derailure .

My dream bike would have a pinion gear box with torque sensing email drive.....

I know keep dreaming

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Pctree » Dec 30 2017 12:11pm

@ Frey how much for an AM 1000 with rohloff hub ?

If you could build one I'd buy it .

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 30 2017 6:15pm

Pctree wrote:
Dec 30 2017 12:11pm
@ Frey how much for an AM 1000 with rohloff hub ?

If you could build one I'd buy it .
Depending where you are located, you can ask the local reseller of Rohloff to lace a rear wheel with it for you. It will probably add around $2000. On the west coast of the US, the company to contact is Cycle monkey
https://www.cyclemonkey.com/rohloff
http://cyclemonkeywheelhouse.blogspot.com/

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by scrambler » Dec 30 2017 6:17pm

Pctree wrote:
Dec 30 2017 12:06pm
My dream bike would have a pinion gear box with torque sensing email drive.....
The dream has a base, it is called Neematic.
Although at this point we have to wonder if the bike is a pipe dream :)
I guess we will know by the summer of 2018 the supposed date of delivery for a first batch of 50 bikes.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Ecyclist » Dec 30 2017 11:42pm

Pctree wrote:
Dec 30 2017 12:11pm
@ Frey how much for an AM 1000 with rohloff hub ?

If you could build one I'd buy it .
Please be realistic. Chinese are not going to buy $1200 rearhub to put on a bike for you.
Get the bike, get the Speedhub, lace it and put it all together. I did it and had tons of fun.
BTW: I bought my Rohloff Speedhub 500/14 CC DB OEM2 68027Z 36-holes 14-Speed Internal Gear Hub straight from dealer in Germany on eBay. Brand spanking new with 203mm disc and shipping for $1,192.23. You will need to do a little research to pick right type.
Don't expect from life to be easy and then it will be.
My builds:
Avian with hypocycloidal drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1318056
2016 GNG extreme drive https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=82252

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robocam   10 kW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by robocam » Dec 31 2017 1:28am

Good to hear =) All I did was lower the start(kg) and the return(kg) to match (try 5-10 kg). I did this across all the speeds as a starting point. If you want full throttle available at any assist setting, under the "throttle" tab, change "designated assist" to 9. If you want the throttle to work in assist 0, change both values of current and speed from 0 to 1 under the "basic" tab.
oleaiz wrote:
Dec 30 2017 10:53am
Hello! My bike arrived yesterday. It was almost 2 weeks in shipping. I guess because of Christmas and New Year rush. Battery will arrive next week on Thursday or Wensday. I got the software and cable from Frey. Can you share your programming experience and settings? Happy New Year!😁

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by Pctree » Dec 31 2017 9:38am

Yes it may be optimistic to hope for a rohloff build but Frey seems responsive to customer demands. I just picked up a 36 hole rohloff disc for my non E bike so am able to build a wheel etc ,I was just hoping not to add another derailure and cluster to my parts bin. I run 2 busy businesses​ and barely make time to ride so wrenching on bikes is low on my list.....

Also why wouldn't a company want to offer a more desirable product? I see maybe a reluctance to buy from a foreign country but we should also be worrying about that :shock:

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! Frey AM1000

Post by icehunter » Jan 01 2018 6:48pm

I would like to wish you all a happy new year. It is a pleasure being able to bounce ideas with such a talented lot.

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