Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 07 2020 12:01pm

Can someone recommend the best tubliss kit for an 18" tire? What kit are you using Merlin?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Apr 07 2020 12:13pm

Tubliss is allready the name of it.
(not tubeless)


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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Apr 07 2020 12:15pm

FWIW, I did not install a 3.5x19 SR241 rear tire and ride it w/ the stock front (other than to see it doesn't rub). It was simply to see if the 3.5" fit. It did. It is indeed taller than the stock tires as this is what I wanted. Not to use w/ the stock front wheel/tire but to use a taller 21" front tire to keep the diameter the same.

Anyway, these came in today. He didn't ship the spokes/nipples in the same box so I still have to wait :(
Image
Image
A little hard to see but 1685g for a Pro Wheel Racing 70R 19x1.85 36H. The main reason to go to the wider rim is to run the Tubliss setup seen in the first pic. They are awesome and run them on all my KTMs.

Image
Pro Wheel Racing 70R 1530g 21x1.60

FWIW, Threw a spare new D803GP front tire on the scale. 3530g. Need to see if it will fit in the Killah fork as I'm guessing the arch clearance is roughly similar on that and a Fox40 27.5. Else will have to go w/ an USD fork.
Image

I've also gotten in line for a Nucular 24F controller :twisted:

BTW, you will have to run less pressure in a moto tire for the same stiffness. The sidewall is considerably stiffer than a bike tire.
BTW2, you still have to radially true a moto rim just to get it centered. Good point on the spokes not really being strong enough to get any big wobbles out.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by n2mb » Apr 07 2020 12:44pm

Any recommendations for good 17" tires for the SM wheels? I have the street tires now. I would like to be able to occasionally go off-road on some easy trails, but will spend 90% of my time on the road.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by BCTECH » Apr 07 2020 12:55pm

Tubliss might be overkill for a light weight setup. especially for sur ron.
it will not work well with sr stock rim, you can try to do a lot of trimming but most likely wouldn't hold the pressure at the end.
its pretty much as heavy as HD tube. and PITA to install /remove it.
I can change normal tube in 3-5mins
not sure if you run just "Tube less", seal up eveything, can you run very low psi without problem?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 07 2020 2:18pm

BCTECH wrote:
Apr 07 2020 12:55pm
Tubliss might be overkill for a light weight setup. especially for sur ron.
it will not work well with sr stock rim, you can try to do a lot of trimming but most likely wouldn't hold the pressure at the end.
its pretty much as heavy as HD tube. and PITA to install /remove it.
I can change normal tube in 3-5mins
not sure if you run just "Tube less", seal up eveything, can you run very low psi without problem?
One thing to also take into consideration is that when I go flat in the rear with my Sur-Ron, I can easily drive home with a complete flat at 30MPH. I just stand up and lean forward and put as much weight on the front as I can, and just full throttle it and slow up around turns.

I am running 11 PSI in my shinko 241 now without issues.

I have to find out exactly how much the tubless kit weighs to compare it to a tire tube. I believe tubless is probably best if you really go off-road and need to maximize your traction. But there are few of us who really need to run 5-7psi, and probably most of us wouldn't want to run that low while riding on the street.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 07 2020 2:48pm

Update on the shinko 18" shinko 241 tire. I took it out for a full ride today with a lowered PSI from 14 to 11.

lowering the PSI made a huge difference in how the rear tire felt, it didn't feel as hard or as harsh. It actually feels pretty much like the stock sur-ron tire, which I ran at 14PSI. Can 3 PSI really make that much of a difference? I don't know, but the tire feels very good and the same as having the stock tire on, but with better traction.

Even stairs felt normal and very smooth.

I think this 18x3.00 shinko 241 is a good way to go for most people until a lighter 2 ply 3" tire comes along. There is really no reason you need such a beefy 4 ply shinko 241 tire for the light weight sur-ron, but unfortunately there are no light weight options.

From what I can tell the traction is better than the stock sur-ron, but its hard to tell.

Why I think the shinko 241 in 18x3.00" size is the best recommendation for most people is that it will wear away very slowly compared to the stock sur-ron tire. My stock Sur-Ron tire lasted only 500 miles, which is very little. The Shinko 241 tire doesn't have small knobs which wear out quickly. I think the shinko 241 will last about 2,000 miles. One benefit is that while the shinko 241 wears slowly, it wears rather fast compared to other motorcycle tires. This is good because the rubber is softer and works better with the light weight sur ron.

The shinko 241 tire will give you smooth on the street riding, and also good traction when riding off-road. Most of us probably do mostly street riding, or at least 50% of it.

The shinko 241 tire is almost exactly the same as the stock 19x1.4" front sur-ron tire. The front 19x1.4 tire is very good for the front, it wears away very slowly and gives good traction. It is also a light weight 2 ply tire. It makes sense to keep the front stock tire and having a matching size 18" 3.00 tire in the rear.

Another thing to take into consideration is cost, the shinko 241 tire is only $37 dollars, compare that to $80 of the other types of tires. This is important if you do a lot of riding on the street.

I'm not saying this is the best tire as I don't know what is out there, but I can say it works well, matches in size to the front, wears slowly, rubber is on the soft side for a motorcycle tire. The ride quality is also very good and probably best compromise if you ride in a lot of different conditions. If you ride only off-road and rarely use the bike, then just keep the stock 19" sur-ron tire. It will probably last you for years. If you ride more than 1000 miles a year, and on and off-road, then this is a decent upgrade as the sur-ron tires are too expensive.

What will it cost to switch to a shinko 18" 241 tire? I paid $96 for the rim, $30 for the spokes. You will reuse your sur-ron nipples.

Here is what I ordered exactly: Spokes ordered in 187mm
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAPIM-LEADER-S ... 3208760575

18x1.6" rim:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DV ... UTF8&psc=1

Tire Tube: 18, TR-4, Standard, 2.75-18, 3.60-18
https://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tubes/ ... be/p/11113

Shinko 241 tire in 18x3.00 size.
https://www.bikebandit.com/tires-tubes/ ... ZqEALw_wcB

Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by BCTECH » Apr 07 2020 3:16pm

Liner, bladder, plastic block, rim lock all together makes it as heavy or more than HD or even UHD tube imo
I ran couple of test rides with tubliss @ 0,3,5 psi, traction is like a dream. The only reason i removed it because it wouldn't hold air. plus too much effort to changing tires. it might be good for dirt bike or hub bike like old times, but i dont see its a good option for sur ron light wheel set up.
What i hope to find out is if possible to run Tube-less with low pressure like 5 psi ? if not i will stick with normal tube.
now i also carry a small pump / Co2 only to put air for riding on-road
Last edited by BCTECH on Apr 07 2020 6:09pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Apr 07 2020 3:27pm

if you run a tire rim lock then you should be able to run very low psi with diy "tube less" rim hole tape, tire sealant and valve setup..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 07 2020 6:00pm

Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 2:48pm
lowering the PSI made a huge difference in how the rear tire felt, it didn't feel as hard or as harsh. It actually feels pretty much like the stock sur-ron tire, which I ran at 14PSI. Can 3 PSI really make that much of a difference? I don't know, but the tire feels very good and the same as having the stock tire on, but with better traction.
So it wasn't the extra weight as I suspected. So I guess your whole rant about weight is unfounded.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 2:48pm
Why I think the shinko 241 in 18x3.00" size is the best recommendation for most people is that it will wear away very slowly compared to the stock sur-ron tire.
The stock tire is shit. As I have said, I have 2,000 miles on my M403s and they still have bigger knobs than the stock tires.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 2:48pm
My stock Sur-Ron tire lasted only 500 miles, which is very little.
That is because (1) the stock tires are shit and (2) that's what pavement does to off-road tires.

Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 2:48pm
The shinko 241 tire will give you smooth on the street riding, and also good traction when riding off-road. Most of us probably do mostly street riding, or at least 50% of it.
I think for most people that live in cities the moto wheels are best. Based on the pics and videos you have shared, you would be fine with moto wheels too.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 2:48pm
I think the shinko 241 in 18x3.00" size is the best recommendation for most people

I'm not saying this is the best tire as I don't know what is out there,
Umm, actually you have repeatedly said the Shinko is the best, in this same post even. Make up your mind.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 2:48pm
If you ride only off-road and rarely use the bike, then just keep the stock 19" sur-ron tire.
The stock tires are total shit - there are much better tires out there. Please stop acting like you are the authority on what the best tires for other people are.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 07 2020 6:07pm

BCTECH wrote:
Apr 07 2020 3:16pm
Liner, bladder, plastic block, rim lock all together makes it as heavy or more than HD or even UHD tube imo
I ran couple of test rides with tubliss @ 0,3,5 psi, traction is like a dream. The only reason i removed it because it wouldn't hold air. plus too much effort to changing tire. it might be good for dirt bike or hub bike like old times, but i dont see its a good option for sur ron light wheel set up.
What i hope to find out is if possible to run Tube-less with low pressure like 5 psi ? if not i will stick with normal tube.
now i also carry a small pump / Co2 only to put air when riding on-road
I run my tubeless tires at about 12psi. It might work at 5psi, but, once it drops below a critical pressure the rim seal will be lost, so I am hesitant to run it so low. Once the seal is broken, you’ll need a strap and air compressor to get the bead to seal again.

It’s never happened to me on the trail, but its not the end of the world if it does because I would still be able to limp the bike back home without having to walk it.

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Apr 07 2020 3:27pm
if you run a tire rim lock then you should be able to run very low psi with diy "tube less" rim hole tape, tire sealant and valve setup..
I don’t use a rim lock with my setup. I thought the point of the rim lock was to prevent stems from breaking which isn’t an issue with tubeless.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 07 2020 6:22pm

3DTOPO:

I do a lot of deep woods riding, riding up steep dirt hills, lots of rocky roads, loose dirt, I'm not sure if a moto wheel, what ever that is exactly would suffice. I need a knobby tire, but if the knobs are too small it will wear too quickly on pavement. That is probably why a trials tire like the shinko 241 works well because the knobs are larger. It also gives decent off road riding and street riding without wearing the knobs too quickly. It is a very good tire compromise.

The stock tire works well up front in both off-road and on the street. It has never failed me or lost grip. Unless you are doing something that probably 95% of us do not ride in, the stock tire is great up front and I don't see any reason for changing it as it is 2 ply tire and very light weight.

I'm speaking for what 90% of us sur-ron owners will ride in and I think my recommendations are worth for everyone to hear. If you think something is better you should post it because I wouldn't mind knowing someone else opinion. To be honest, I don't really see many people posting anything about the performance of a new tire setup and comparing it to the stock sur-ron tires. Most people here upgrade and use the 19" rim for a new rear tire but that is not a great idea when you should go down to an 18" tire.

Weight is an issue, especially if you are adding too much. My tire setup is about 3 lbs heavier, so that isn't all that much heavier but probably does have some effects. I will have to eventually put back on my stock sur-ron 19" wheel and make a comparison. The suspension has to constantly move and react, the less unsprung weight the better.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Apr 07 2020 6:33pm

the rim lock can help at lower pressure bc tire is more likely to rotate relative to the rim with lower psi, which could break the air seal or damage a tube valve..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 07 2020 6:36pm

Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 6:22pm
I do a lot of deep woods riding, riding up steep dirt hills, lots of rocky roads, loose dirt, I'm not sure if a moto wheel, what ever that is exactly would suffice. I need a knobby tire, but if the knobs are too small it will wear too quickly on pavement. That is probably why a trials tire like the shinko 241 works well because the knobs are larger. It also gives decent off road riding and street riding without wearing the knobs too quickly. It is a very good tire compromise.
That shinko is not a knobby tire. The knobs are practically solid compared to an off-road tire.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 6:22pm
The stock tire works well up front in both off-road and on the street. It has never failed me or lost grip. Unless you are doing something that probably 95% of us do not ride in, the stock tire is great up front and I don't see any reason for changing it as it is 2 ply tire and very light weight.
Where are you getting 95%? Pulling it out of your a$$?

Besides the X-Controller, upgrading the tires was the single best thing I've done to my ride. The difference in cornering is huge.

Seems like you have tried two types of tires, the Shinko and stock. The fact that you are raving about the stock tires is evidence enough you have no idea what a proper off-road is.
Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 6:22pm
I'm speaking for what 90% of us sur-ron owners will ride in and I think my recommendations are worth for everyone to hear. If you think something is better you should post it because I wouldn't mind knowing someone else opinion. To be honest, I don't really see many people posting anything about the performance of a new tire setup and comparing it to the stock sur-ron tires. Most people here upgrade and use the 19" rim for a new rear tire but that is not a great idea when you should go down to an 18" tire.
How the hell are you determining what conditions 90% of Sur Ron riders ride in?
Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 6:22pm
Weight is an issue, especially if you are adding too much. My tire setup is about 3 lbs heavier, so that isn't all that much heavier but probably does have some effects.
You flipped out about other people using a slightly heavier tire, and now you are saying actually its fine.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Apr 07 2020 6:38pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Apr 07 2020 6:33pm
the rim lock can help at lower pressure bc tire is more likely to rotate relative to the rim with lower psi, which could break the air seal or damage a tube valve..
I'm confused. I understand and agree rim lock prevents tube valves from being damaged, but I thought you were talking about using a rim lock for tubeless wheels?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Apr 07 2020 6:42pm

if the tire rotates on the rim it will break the sealant at the rim interface, thus leakage or burp more probable than if locked..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Apr 07 2020 7:59pm

That's where "tubliss" kick in...
The whole high pressure inner tube acts like a rim lock.
I can ride with 6psi and pulling 20kw with a fresh mx tire on dirt.

2nd year so far. What also is great...
The low pressure part never loose any air.
12psi sticks to 12 psi even after a month.

Only the high pressure part drops from 100 to 90 in a month.

Btw the tubliss kit is less weight as thick Enduro tubes.
But it adds 300g to the wheel if you go with normal sized tubes.

I think for Offroad use only you can go with a 18x1.85 or 18x2.15, normal "light" tube but use a rim lock that you have no problems with 6psi.
Flat tire should work for riding at home without damage to the rim.

Thats the cheap version of ultra grip but for myself I would be pretty pissed going out with Offroad buddies on a nice sunny day and roll back to the car after 20min because a flat tire.

I don't know how the cost is in the other side of the world but it's worth if you like to ride all day long without "problems".

Changing tires is easy because you haven't to care about a tube.

Lightweight is always nice. But sometimes there's a too light also.
With lmx /surron you don't even sweat lifting your bike 3 times a mile over trees.
Sucks with a double weighted full Enduro.

But if it gets really nasty a"real Enduro" floats over ugly terrain compared to a lmx/surron even with top notch mtb suspension.

Just want to say it makes no "bad" difference if your surron weights additional 20lbs for a bigger battery + a set of nice wheels.

Sure if you Wanna compete downhill against a mtb rider on narrow single trails where you need a single crown fork to clear the corners without shifting your bike... Yea than your surron is a fat ass bike.

But the same thing happens if you compare your ride with a normal 220lbs Enduro on a tight track. The surron will be the lightweight and makes more fun.

Now put your surron on Glen Helen track and your surron will suck on any part of the track.

There's no "best" but you can find your middle to have all the fun you need/want.

Stock surron tires are shit... +1
But....
For my girl with the far east weight of 110lbs they work not bad.
Even on street.
Now she has 3 sets of spare tires from all "men riders" :D

But... She thinks about selling the surron. Why?
Because for her 110lbs shower weight the 130lbs surron feels like a real Enduro for men. (without the strength of a man)

What else could I say...
It's all up to personal flavor but nobody who has tried will find the sweet spot.
And I think most guys who know what they talk about have tons of tires and handlebars in the garage from testing :p

At least I think rix is one of them too 😅

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by BCTECH » Apr 07 2020 8:10pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Apr 07 2020 6:42pm
if the tire rotates on the rim it will break the sealant at the rim interface, thus leakage or burp more probable than if locked..
the downside is running very low psi, you will feel the rim lock is there at one spot when rolling

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Apr 07 2020 8:16pm

don't trial and enduro run rim lock at low psi ?? you need large volume tire (and inner bladder or insert don't hurt either)..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by BCTECH » Apr 07 2020 8:28pm

Offroader wrote:
Apr 06 2020 2:00pm
The tire itself, we should document what each tire weighs exactly to get a better idea about what is available.

The Sur-Ron Stock 19" tire weighs: 4lbs 8oz

My Shinko 241 3.00x18" weighs: 7 lbs 4 oz
>
Stock Sur-Ron 19" Tire below
Image


Shinko 241 18x3.00" below
Image
Tried a couple 19in tires before just to compare with stock.
IMG_6774.JPG
IMG_6774.JPG (138.23 KiB) Viewed 244 times
The M403 is the lightest @ 5.6lb with decent size knobs
IMG_6782.JPG
IMG_6782.JPG (78.13 KiB) Viewed 244 times
I don't like it because the knobs are hard as rock, bad for my offroad riding. But that might mean long lasting for pavement road use?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Apr 07 2020 10:35pm

BCTECH, why do you feel the stiffer knobby tires are not good off-road? Did you use those on the front or the rear?
How did you like the stock sur-ron tire compared to those knobby tires you have shown in the picture?

This is why I particularly like the Shinko 241 tire in 3.00" because it had softer tread compound and flexes more easily. Actually, a lot of people who use the shinko 241 on their bigger bikes hated the tire because it wore away in 500 miles for them. This however is a great benefit to us because we probably want a softer tread compound for out light bike, and they will still last 2000 miles for us.

I feel the issue getting tires for out bike is that we are in between a bicycle and dirtbike, and not many make tires for out bikes. They are made for much heavier bikes.

I tried the shinko 2.75" tires and that tire was probably made for the front of the bike and had very hard tread compound, it didn't ride good at all. The 3.00" version of the tires has a much softer tread compound.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by BCTECH » Apr 08 2020 12:08am

Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 10:35pm
BCTECH, why do you feel the stiffer knobby tires are not good off-road? Did you use those on the front or the rear?
How did you like the stock sur-ron tire compared to those knobby tires you have shown in the picture?

This is why I particularly like the Shinko 241 tire in 3.00" because it had softer tread compound and flexes more easily. Actually, a lot of people who use the shinko 241 on their bigger bikes hated the tire because it wore away in 500 miles for them. This however is a great benefit to us because we probably want a softer tread compound for out light bike, and they will still last 2000 miles for us.

I feel the issue getting tires for out bike is that we are in between a bicycle and dirtbike, and not many make tires for out bikes. They are made for much heavier bikes.

I tried the shinko 2.75" tires and that tire was probably made for the front of the bike and had very hard tread compound, it didn't ride good at all. The 3.00" version of the tires has a much softer tread compound.
I ride alot on wet, slippery and muddy trails, size and softness of the knobs make huge difference just to dig deep, grab and rip everything :)
The stock tire is too narrow and too small knobs. all others have double size knobs and 3-3.2 " wide for a few lbs more in weight. its worth the trade off. A lot people riding dirt bikes complain the tread life of these knobby mx tires, but it's not so much on our much lighter bikes.
The Motoz Terrapactor has softer knobs similar to shinko 241 i had on my hub bike, but its also more narrower compare to others.
Just as you know they are all 19in front tires, so 18 in might be different

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 08 2020 11:02am

n2mb wrote:
Apr 07 2020 12:44pm
Any recommendations for good 17" tires for the SM wheels? I have the street tires now. I would like to be able to occasionally go off-road on some easy trails, but will spend 90% of my time on the road.
M62 Michelin Gazelles. Best 80% onroad 20% offroad tire on the market for the size range. I ran this tire breifly on my Bomber back in 2012. It worked good off road, except in mud and sand. And it stuck like glue to the pavement. http://www.oasistires.com/tires/make/mi ... zelle-m62/

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 08 2020 11:05am

3DTOPO wrote:
Apr 07 2020 6:38pm
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Apr 07 2020 6:33pm
the rim lock can help at lower pressure bc tire is more likely to rotate relative to the rim with lower psi, which could break the air seal or damage a tube valve..
I'm confused. I understand and agree rim lock prevents tube valves from being damaged, but I thought you were talking about using a rim lock for tubeless wheels?
No need to do that, I ran the Tubliss system on KTM XCF450, even flat, whacking the throttle and dumping the clutch, the tire didn't slip on the bead. No need for rimlock.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Apr 08 2020 11:10am

Offroader wrote:
Apr 07 2020 10:35pm
BCTECH, why do you feel the stiffer knobby tires are not good off-road? Did you use those on the front or the rear?
How did you like the stock sur-ron tire compared to those knobby tires you have shown in the picture?

This is why I particularly like the Shinko 241 tire in 3.00" because it had softer tread compound and flexes more easily. Actually, a lot of people who use the shinko 241 on their bigger bikes hated the tire because it wore away in 500 miles for them. This however is a great benefit to us because we probably want a softer tread compound for out light bike, and they will still last 2000 miles for us.

I feel the issue getting tires for out bike is that we are in between a bicycle and dirtbike, and not many make tires for out bikes. They are made for much heavier bikes.

I tried the shinko 2.75" tires and that tire was probably made for the front of the bike and had very hard tread compound, it didn't ride good at all. The 3.00" version of the tires has a much softer tread compound.
I mostly agree with you Offroader. I was probably the first person to every run the SR241 on an ebike. My avatar pick from 2012 show the 3.00-17 on the rear of my Bomber. I ran 2.75 and 3.00 in both 17 and 18" wheel sizes, and they were better, hooked better, and performed better in all conditions than any other tire available. the 3.00 wide SR241 are better than the 2.75" SR241, but the 2.75 is a great tire also.

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