Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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srapy   100 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by srapy » May 22 2020 10:50am

srapy wrote:
May 15 2019 2:11pm
Did some testing with the Vesc 75/300 on my streetlegal Version.
Works fine with 14S 16ah Lipos (will be 32ah when finished) at the moment although the Vesc can handle 16S. Regen is now possible and because of FOC the motor is more quiet. App showed me 8,5kw peak at 300phaseamps. Not sure if these values are correct. I will keep on testing and trying to get more out of it :)
After changing to 16S, doing lots of experiments, upgrading to FW 5.0 I reached 15,4KW peak at 440 Phaseamps.
Heres an unspectacular video of the bike and a picture of it.

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » May 22 2020 12:18pm

srapy wrote:
May 22 2020 10:50am

After changing to 16S, doing lots of experiments, upgrading to FW 5.0 I reached 15,4KW peak at 440 Phaseamps.
Heres an unspectacular video of the bike and a picture of it.
Nice. How is it on pavement? You get more traction.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » May 22 2020 9:31pm

srapy wrote:
May 22 2020 10:50am
srapy wrote:
May 15 2019 2:11pm
Did some testing with the Vesc 75/300 on my streetlegal Version.
Works fine with 14S 16ah Lipos (will be 32ah when finished) at the moment although the Vesc can handle 16S. Regen is now possible and because of FOC the motor is more quiet. App showed me 8,5kw peak at 300phaseamps. Not sure if these values are correct. I will keep on testing and trying to get more out of it :)
After changing to 16S, doing lots of experiments, upgrading to FW 5.0 I reached 15,4KW peak at 440 Phaseamps.
Heres an unspectacular video of the bike and a picture of it.

what type of belt drive do you have?

440 definatly wakes it up eh? thats about what I get out of mine with a 24f nucular, though im still on stock battery so only hitting about 7kw peak. Nice to know how the big VESC handles larger motors...

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » May 23 2020 10:30am

How are you getting 440 phase amps with stock battery? I only get about 320 and my maximum ever was 340.

Mostly everyone else with the 24 fet gets about 300-320 max phase amps.

What is FW 5.0

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by srapy » May 23 2020 12:12pm

sn0wchyld wrote:
May 22 2020 9:31pm
srapy wrote:
May 22 2020 10:50am
srapy wrote:
May 15 2019 2:11pm
Did some testing with the Vesc 75/300 on my streetlegal Version.
Works fine with 14S 16ah Lipos (will be 32ah when finished) at the moment although the Vesc can handle 16S. Regen is now possible and because of FOC the motor is more quiet. App showed me 8,5kw peak at 300phaseamps. Not sure if these values are correct. I will keep on testing and trying to get more out of it :)
After changing to 16S, doing lots of experiments, upgrading to FW 5.0 I reached 15,4KW peak at 440 Phaseamps.
Heres an unspectacular video of the bike and a picture of it.

what type of belt drive do you have?

440 definatly wakes it up eh? thats about what I get out of mine with a 24f nucular, though im still on stock battery so only hitting about 7kw peak. Nice to know how the big VESC handles larger motors...
Its the one from Allex.
Yes, much more fun! Vesc 75/300 can even handle bigger motors.
Offroader wrote:
May 23 2020 10:30am
How are you getting 440 phase amps with stock battery? I only get about 320 and my maximum ever was 340.

Mostly everyone else with the 24 fet gets about 300-320 max phase amps.

What is FW 5.0
Its not a stock battery. 16S Turnigy Lipos. FW 5.0 is the Firmware of Vesc.
fechter wrote:
May 22 2020 12:18pm
srapy wrote:
May 22 2020 10:50am

After changing to 16S, doing lots of experiments, upgrading to FW 5.0 I reached 15,4KW peak at 440 Phaseamps.
Heres an unspectacular video of the bike and a picture of it.
Nice. How is it on pavement? You get more traction.
On pavement its tire killing :D

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » May 23 2020 6:23pm

Offroader wrote:
May 23 2020 10:30am
How are you getting 440 phase amps with stock battery? I only get about 320 and my maximum ever was 340.

Mostly everyone else with the 24 fet gets about 300-320 max phase amps.

What is FW 5.0
you can pull slightly more than 120A from the stock battery, or about 7kw. that'll get you to peaks around 440A, though it drops off fairly quick it'll lift the front from a static riding positiion up to about 30km'h or so, stock controller could barely do that at 0.

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Amaxophobie   100 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Amaxophobie » May 28 2020 2:14am

you can pull slightly more than 120A from the stock battery
Sadly thats not the case anymore. I got a late 2019 model and get BMS cuts if the battery amps get higher than 95A constant. Pulling that less than 5 seconds and you're good but I don't want to risk a forced restart of the system.

You would never know when the BMS gets bitchy and shuts down. And I can imganine a lot of situations where I don't want this to happen :confused:
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BCTECH   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by BCTECH » May 28 2020 10:59am

How can you tell if your stock battery is old verison (120A) or new version (95A) ? form the manufacturing date?

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 28 2020 3:21pm

Why would anyone want to pull 120A when the cells can handle a maximum of 10A and also the voltage sag is so high that it does not really get you any advantages in total amount of power.

Old:
viewtopic.php?p=1358016#p1358016
New:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89902&p=1426384&hi ... o#p1426384

display on the old one is also different(font and color) and does not lit up during the ride.

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » May 29 2020 6:45pm

Allex wrote:
May 28 2020 3:21pm
Why would anyone want to pull 120A when the cells can handle a maximum of 10A and also the voltage sag is so high that it does not really get you any advantages in total amount of power.

Old:
viewtopic.php?p=1358016#p1358016
New:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89902&p=1426384&hi ... o#p1426384

display on the old one is also different(font and color) and does not lit up during the ride.
power difference is still significant (WRT battery sag)... from memory 95A yeilds ~5.6kw peaks, 120A yields about 6.9kw. 'seat of the pants' feel is significant too, 95A is relatively safe (doesn't lift front wheel above 10km'h) 120 does it up to about 30...

I totally get its pushing the batteries beyond their rated limits... for my use its typically short bursts which should mitigate some of the high drain issues but I do expect the battery to die faster as a result, hence why im adding a booster pack in parallel until I go the whole hog and replace it all...

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by crazy_dave » Jun 02 2020 8:17am

pipeking wrote:
Apr 21 2020 6:44pm
oh, btw the X controller has been fitted for a long time, with zero issues
Hey Pipe,
Did you ever get this figured out? Apparently removing my (tipover) switch did not completely fix my problem. Now my Sur-Ron is acting very similar to what you are describing.
It’s better to apologize than it is to ask permission.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Jun 07 2020 8:43pm

When you talk about 95 amps vs 120 amps.

Are you able to use 120 amps on some sur-ron batteries without cutting the BMS wires?

I only tried my bike up to 90 amps because I read most people had battery cut off at around 93 amps.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Jun 07 2020 9:05pm

I finally installed this HDPE bashguard on my bike.
https://racespecsurron.com/bash-plate-guard-sur-ron/

I hated the stock bash guard, all it took was my body weight and the bash guard bent when I bottomed out over a rock. The stock bash guard is also dangerous in that it starts to push into the motor phase wire connectors when it is pushed up, land on something hard enough it could damage your motor connector. It is complete junk.

I wanted something where I could ride over large fallen trees without having to lift my bike over them. So far I tested this riding it over a fallen tree and I had numerous times where I landed hard right on the this HDPE bash guard with all my weight and my bikes weight. This thing is indestructible. It is also very slippery and you can feel it slip over the fallen trees.

Because it is slightly flexible, this probably also helps to take away some of the shock if you happen to bottom out on something. A metal bash guard will probably bend permanently.

This is also great to have if you ride stairs because eventually you will bottom out on very steep stairs and this will easily handle the bottoming out.

Another benefit is that the bash guard is much easier to remove and install and you do not have to deal with those annoying clips on the stock bash guard. I'm not sure if anyone else found the stock bash guard clips extremely frustrating to deal with.

Another must have mod on this bike, highly recommended for anyone who thinks they will bottom out.

Image

Image

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jun 09 2020 11:03am

Offroader wrote:
Jun 07 2020 9:05pm
I finally installed this HDPE bashguard on my bike.
https://racespecsurron.com/bash-plate-guard-sur-ron/

I hated the stock bash guard, all it took was my body weight and the bash guard bent when I bottomed out over a rock. The stock bash guard is also dangerous in that it starts to push into the motor phase wire connectors when it is pushed up, land on something hard enough it could damage your motor connector. It is complete junk.

I wanted something where I could ride over large fallen trees without having to lift my bike over them. So far I tested this riding it over a fallen tree and I had numerous times where I landed hard right on the this HDPE bash guard with all my weight and my bikes weight. This thing is indestructible. It is also very slippery and you can feel it slip over the fallen trees.

Because it is slightly flexible, this probably also helps to take away some of the shock if you happen to bottom out on something. A metal bash guard will probably bend permanently.

This is also great to have if you ride stairs because eventually you will bottom out on very steep stairs and this will easily handle the bottoming out.

Another benefit is that the bash guard is much easier to remove and install and you do not have to deal with those annoying clips on the stock bash guard. I'm not sure if anyone else found the stock bash guard clips extremely frustrating to deal with.

Another must have mod on this bike, highly recommended for anyone who thinks they will bottom out.

[

Image
I see its back in stock, I am going to order one this week.

Mistertrixer   1 µW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Mistertrixer » Jun 09 2020 12:12pm

Have some one tried to trix with the firmware on the x controller? And where is the shunt every one is talking about?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/serjDX7NYF6AdUus7

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » Jun 09 2020 4:28pm

I found the HDPE guard to rest directly on the motor, so when you hit you hit guard, you hit the motor. The guard also hit the motor casing on the lower R hand side near the mount. Also...due to the disparate angle set in the plastic, the two lower mounting screws were virtually impossible to install without cross-threading. Bottom line, I re-installed my heavy stainless motor guard.
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Kauaiguy   10 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Kauaiguy » Jun 09 2020 7:00pm

I found my HDPE skid plate was easy to install,have 450 miles of hard Kauai off-roading and stump jumping with out problem,would never go back to metal.

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Jun 09 2020 11:45pm

Offroader wrote:
Jun 07 2020 8:43pm
When you talk about 95 amps vs 120 amps.

Are you able to use 120 amps on some sur-ron batteries without cutting the BMS wires?

I only tried my bike up to 90 amps because I read most people had battery cut off at around 93 amps.
Stock battery. I have had it cut out once when the battery was at ~30%, on a cold day (~10C) during a very long steep hill climb (steep enough it was hard to keep traction / not fall backwards), but that's the only time. General riding doesn't require pulling 120 for long.
Offroader wrote:
Jun 07 2020 9:05pm
I finally installed this HDPE bashguard on my bike.
https://racespecsurron.com/bash-plate-guard-sur-ron/

I hated the stock bash guard, all it took was my body weight and the bash guard bent when I bottomed out over a rock. The stock bash guard is also dangerous in that it starts to push into the motor phase wire connectors when it is pushed up, land on something hard enough it could damage your motor connector. It is complete junk.

I wanted something where I could ride over large fallen trees without having to lift my bike over them. So far I tested this riding it over a fallen tree and I had numerous times where I landed hard right on the this HDPE bash guard with all my weight and my bikes weight. This thing is indestructible. It is also very slippery and you can feel it slip over the fallen trees.

Because it is slightly flexible, this probably also helps to take away some of the shock if you happen to bottom out on something. A metal bash guard will probably bend permanently.

This is also great to have if you ride stairs because eventually you will bottom out on very steep stairs and this will easily handle the bottoming out.

Another benefit is that the bash guard is much easier to remove and install and you do not have to deal with those annoying clips on the stock bash guard. I'm not sure if anyone else found the stock bash guard clips extremely frustrating to deal with.

Another must have mod on this bike, highly recommended for anyone who thinks they will bottom out.

Image

Image

Can highly reccomend the bash plate... best of all you can buy welding sticks or just sheets and repair any gouges with a heat gun/soldering iron. A 2nd sheet of hdpe makes for a good controller/wire guard too. For those with fitment issues, you can use a heat gun to mold it appropriately, becomes similar to thick leather in consistency when hot.
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SauMooN   1 µW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SauMooN » Jun 10 2020 6:25am

I everyone i am new on this forum i would like to buy a surron i am in france the actually price is 4590€ some seller or link of cheaper shop from eu to buy (eu only because of vat)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SlowCo » Jun 10 2020 7:27am

SauMooN wrote:
Jun 10 2020 6:25am
I everyone i am new on this forum i would like to buy a surron i am in france the actually price is 4590€ some seller or link of cheaper shop from eu to buy (eu only because of vat)
€3490,- excl. shipping:
https://m.mobile.de/motorrad-inserat/ks ... ml?ref=srp

Ask them what it costs to ship it to you. I think it will be a lot less than €1100,-... :shock:
And don't forget to let them send the CoC papers with it to be able to register it in France

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SauMooN » Jun 10 2020 8:05am

SlowCo wrote:
Jun 10 2020 7:27am
SauMooN wrote:
Jun 10 2020 6:25am
I everyone i am new on this forum i would like to buy a surron i am in france the actually price is 4590€ some seller or link of cheaper shop from eu to buy (eu only because of vat)
€3490,- excl. shipping:
https://m.mobile.de/motorrad-inserat/ks ... ml?ref=srp

Ask them what it costs to ship it to you. I think it will be a lot less than €1100,-... :shock:
And don't forget to let them send the CoC papers with it to be able to register it in France
ok thanks and one thing about register in france to register the bike i have to pay vat in france 20% 14 days after the purchase max. And when the bike is approved i have to ask the de shop to refund me the vat 19% .
I contact him right now but I'm not closing other proposals or link.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » Jun 10 2020 1:35pm

fechter wrote:
Jun 09 2020 3:16pm
Mistertrixer wrote:
Jun 09 2020 12:12pm
Have some one tried to trix with the firmware on the x controller? And where is the shunt every one is talking about?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/serjDX7NYF6AdUus7
I'm not aware of anyone who has firmware for the controllers.

X controller depotted2.jpg

There is no shunt on the X controller. It uses a hall effect phase current sensor (2). I guess they do math to figure out the third phase. Output of the sensor is 2.5v at zero current and goes up or down depending on polarity. Output of this goes to the MCU chip. It is possible to place a divider on the signal line to increase the current limit. You can also de-pot the sensor and bend it to change the sensitivity. I did this on one and it's fairly awesome. 10kW peak and double regen force. Not recommended unless you are willing to risk trashing the controller. Just getting the cover off on mine it tore the terminal post off from the board and it was a major pain to get them soldered back on.
I'm assuming the segway controller has the bluetooth onboard, any conformation of that you've seen?
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by thoroughbred » Jun 10 2020 8:59pm

Mistertrixer wrote:
Jun 09 2020 12:12pm
Have some one tried to trix with the firmware on the x controller? And where is the shunt every one is talking about?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/serjDX7NYF6AdUus7
So what are we looking at there? Circled is a place to plug an rs232 cable into it for programming etc? There is also a plug accessible from the outside of controller for the same?

The mcu is the novatron chip shown? Can you bypass that chip and install a lebowski brain to run the controller like amberwolf is doing with his honda inverter?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Mistertrixer » Jun 11 2020 5:13am

I Was only taking apart a broken controller because I am going to use the cover for mounting a nuclear controller. I was posting pictures because I thought that some one coud hawe use of them and I was curious if someone had modified one of these.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by H.I.M » Jun 11 2020 4:01pm

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