Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
smdub   1 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » May 08 2020 7:51am

What throttle pot do you have? I've graphed my stock SurRon pot and its S shaped and exactly opposite of what you show. Slow ramp at the start (and end) and steep in the middle.

Ohbse   10 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Ohbse » May 08 2020 9:23pm

smdub wrote:
May 08 2020 7:51am
What throttle pot do you have? I've graphed my stock SurRon pot and its S shaped and exactly opposite of what you show. Slow ramp at the start (and end) and steep in the middle.
He's using a shitty chinese thumb throttle with abysmal voltage curve and complaining of throttle issues. Stock Sur-ron throttle assembly works fine, Domino or other Pot type throttle will work better. By increasing minimum voltage, he's losing any function over the first % of rotation - this is not a solution, just a crutch for poor quality throttle.

Programmable throttle curve would be ideal solution and is on Vasiliy to-do list I'm sure - but unnecessary for most people.

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » May 08 2020 10:07pm

Ohbse wrote:
May 08 2020 9:23pm
smdub wrote:
May 08 2020 7:51am
What throttle pot do you have? I've graphed my stock SurRon pot and its S shaped and exactly opposite of what you show. Slow ramp at the start (and end) and steep in the middle.
He's using a shitty chinese thumb throttle with abysmal voltage curve and complaining of throttle issues. Stock Sur-ron throttle assembly works fine, Domino or other Pot type throttle will work better. By increasing minimum voltage, he's losing any function over the first % of rotation - this is not a solution, just a crutch for poor quality throttle.

Programmable throttle curve would be ideal solution and is on Vasiliy to-do list I'm sure - but unnecessary for most people.
Actually he is right about it isn't a good idea to increase the minimum throttle voltage like I have done. However, my throttle has such a spike from .800 volts to 2.1 volts, that when I increased my minimum throttle voltage I can not feel the loss. My throttle is that bad :o . that the initial jump from .8 to 2.1 volts is less than 5% of my throttle movement, practically unnoticeable. This is why I was complaining so bad about my throttle because this made my bike so twitchy before increasing the minimum voltage or like an On/Off switch instead of a throttle.

Because it is so bad it actually works very well after increasing my minimum throttle voltage, because my throttle starts at the flat part of the curve which gives me very good control for the first 40% of the throttle movement. This gives me very good slow speed control, great for inching forward. It also helps defeat the huge dead zone at higher speeds that is inevitable with the nuclear 24fet because of the fact that the sur-ron uses only about 130 phase amps above 20MPH and the throttle is set to give 350 max phase amps, so you lose a ton of range.


I'm using the 106DX throttle. Boy do I love this throttle, I love it because it has the perfect feel and is very easy to control. I have not found a better feeling throttle yet. In the picture you can see the 106DX on the right, and on the left is the 130DX throttle.

I actually just ordered 2 more 106DX throttles because I don't like the 130DX throttle at all, even though it has a more linear curve.

Image

synics   10 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by synics » May 08 2020 10:13pm

JuiceMeUp wrote:
Apr 28 2020 8:56pm
I recently did the Moto Tyre experiment on the Surron.
I read all the posts and recommendations. Agonised over my choice and pulled the trigger.

First ride - "Fark this!"

The good:
The cornering grip was unbelievable. The bike was now a plough. Smash the chunkiest of terrain. magic carpet ride.

The not so good:
Heavy, slow steering pig. Range sapping. Power taxing. Send it a memo in advance if you wanted to go around a corner.

I've gone back to my own magic formula that is compromised in different ways that reflect my own riding tastes.

Hit me up if you want some cheap Moto Tyres <20Km
So what's your magic formula, which tires?

JuiceMeUp   100 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by JuiceMeUp » May 09 2020 6:15am

synics wrote:
May 08 2020 10:13pm


So what's your magic formula, which tires?
It's all personal taste mate.
There is no blanket "Best". Just the best thing for me.

How do you like your ride to feel? Muted, planted, stuck to the ground. Or Lively and playful like a MTB?

Planted - go the light Moto tyre option.
Playful - find the strongest MTB components you can and build around a 26" wheel.

I hear that the bike was originally designed for a 26" front but ease of manufacturing, Surron ended up using the 2 x 19" jobbies and tyres front and back.

I'm not actually going to say exactly what I'm running as I will just sound like every other cunt here trying to tell you how you should roll. Try different things out and learn what you like and what you don't.
Enjoy playing with your Ron - They're magical bikes

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 09 2020 11:41am

Allex wrote:
May 04 2020 5:32pm
Allex wrote:
Jan 18 2020 6:18pm
Rix wrote:
Jan 17 2020 10:33pm
Got my new X Lightbee in. Its a bit better than the first generation. Put some trials tires on and got Motomoto's 55T sprocket and chain on. Thanks Kim for cutting the chain to length. Haven't ridden it yet, maybe this weekend.
Wzup Rix! Missed this small bee too much?
Have not posted it here but:
Just got got my modded controller fixed now. We fitted 24F Nuc inside.
Thx team Nucular!
Image

Worth it for me, because it is plug and play, screw on using original mounts without hassling with new mounts and besides, it looks stock even though it is tuned!
This bike is so sick now! Belt drive and 12kW pops wheelies just like that at 50km/h
Tops at around 100km/h did not have time to experiment much with settings yet though.
16s13p 30q (39Ah vs stock 32Ah) pack in original battery casing too!

It will be brutal with 20s
You should test drive one Rick ;)

Yeah Hopefully I will offer kit containing battery and controller
Controller spec:
Maximum power 20 000W
Nominal power 10 000W
Voltage range 20-90V
Phase max 500A
Battery max ~300A

With above battery I can only run 195A so I am limited to about 12kW
And now it is time for the battery
72V 35Ah with 300A BT BMS inside the original battery casing makes the bike look like stock and no need for a battery cover or frame modification like other packs require. It takes a lot of time to fit everything, this build is really tight!
Pack can do 300Amps discharge but I would not recommend pushing it for long as stock surron wiring is not sized for it.

I will make these to the public but in this case they will be 32Ah and 270A discharge as it is extremely time consuming to make it 35Ah. No prices yet.

Charging can be done through the controller using a PSU if you have a NUCular or a regular 72V li-ion charger if you have another controller.
You can monitor the cell status, do balancing and see some other info about cells and current using your phone
And now a little video

Kauaiguy   10 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Kauaiguy » May 09 2020 12:58pm

Surron seat extension
Moved the seat back 3 inchs using a 2 3/4x18inch strip of 3/16 fiberglass and (6 )1/4 ss bolts ,also made built in fender bracket.Moving the seat back lets me sit on the thick part of the seat and get better traction while sitting.
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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » May 10 2020 2:19pm

Allex wrote:
May 09 2020 11:41am
Allex wrote:
May 04 2020 5:32pm
Allex wrote:
Jan 18 2020 6:18pm
Rix wrote:
Jan 17 2020 10:33pm
Got my new X Lightbee in. Its a bit better than the first generation. Put some trials tires on and got Motomoto's 55T sprocket and chain on. Thanks Kim for cutting the chain to length. Haven't ridden it yet, maybe this weekend.
Wzup Rix! Missed this small bee too much?
Have not posted it here but:
Just got got my modded controller fixed now. We fitted 24F Nuc inside.
Thx team Nucular!
Image

Worth it for me, because it is plug and play, screw on using original mounts without hassling with new mounts and besides, it looks stock even though it is tuned!
This bike is so sick now! Belt drive and 12kW pops wheelies just like that at 50km/h
Tops at around 100km/h did not have time to experiment much with settings yet though.
16s13p 30q (39Ah vs stock 32Ah) pack in original battery casing too!

It will be brutal with 20s
You should test drive one Rick ;)

Yeah Hopefully I will offer kit containing battery and controller
Controller spec:
Maximum power 20 000W
Nominal power 10 000W
Voltage range 20-90V
Phase max 500A
Battery max ~300A

With above battery I can only run 195A so I am limited to about 12kW
And now it is time for the battery
72V 35Ah with 300A BT BMS inside the original battery casing makes the bike look like stock and no need for a battery cover or frame modification like other packs require. It takes a lot of time to fit everything, this build is really tight!
Pack can do 300Amps discharge but I would not recommend pushing it for long as stock surron wiring is not sized for it.

I will make these to the public but in this case they will be 32Ah and 270A discharge as it is extremely time consuming to make it 35Ah. No prices yet.

Charging can be done through the controller using a PSU if you have a NUCular or a regular 72V li-ion charger if you have another controller.
You can monitor the cell status, do balancing and see some other info about cells and current using your phone
And now a little video
Are you setting this mod up as a plug-n-ride option for the SurRon owners? Sorry if I missed something previously.

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Allex   1 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Allex » May 11 2020 3:36am

Yes Rick, thats the idea!

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sn0wchyld   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » May 13 2020 9:05am

Allex wrote:
May 09 2020 11:41am
Allex wrote:
May 04 2020 5:32pm
Allex wrote:
Jan 18 2020 6:18pm
Rix wrote:
Jan 17 2020 10:33pm
Got my new X Lightbee in. Its a bit better than the first generation. Put some trials tires on and got Motomoto's 55T sprocket and chain on. Thanks Kim for cutting the chain to length. Haven't ridden it yet, maybe this weekend.
Wzup Rix! Missed this small bee too much?
Have not posted it here but:
Just got got my modded controller fixed now. We fitted 24F Nuc inside.
Thx team Nucular!
Image

Worth it for me, because it is plug and play, screw on using original mounts without hassling with new mounts and besides, it looks stock even though it is tuned!
This bike is so sick now! Belt drive and 12kW pops wheelies just like that at 50km/h
Tops at around 100km/h did not have time to experiment much with settings yet though.
16s13p 30q (39Ah vs stock 32Ah) pack in original battery casing too!

It will be brutal with 20s
You should test drive one Rick ;)

Yeah Hopefully I will offer kit containing battery and controller
Controller spec:
Maximum power 20 000W
Nominal power 10 000W
Voltage range 20-90V
Phase max 500A
Battery max ~300A

With above battery I can only run 195A so I am limited to about 12kW
And now it is time for the battery
72V 35Ah with 300A BT BMS inside the original battery casing makes the bike look like stock and no need for a battery cover or frame modification like other packs require. It takes a lot of time to fit everything, this build is really tight!
Pack can do 300Amps discharge but I would not recommend pushing it for long as stock surron wiring is not sized for it.

I will make these to the public but in this case they will be 32Ah and 270A discharge as it is extremely time consuming to make it 35Ah. No prices yet.

Charging can be done through the controller using a PSU if you have a NUCular or a regular 72V li-ion charger if you have another controller.
You can monitor the cell status, do balancing and see some other info about cells and current using your phone
And now a little video
price guide for the 72v battery (sans controller... already got a 24f nuk :D)? though i think i'd prefer vt6 over 30q... haven't heard great stuff about 30q's longevity.

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X-Nitro   1 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » May 13 2020 12:40pm

Ttwinsupra wrote:
May 02 2020 9:11pm
You guys will be happy to know the 2020 surron has an electric throttle and it actually feels really nice, spring loaded and everything. So probably much less problematic
I would like to get my hands on one of those, take some readings & see how well it's made...
:shock: 48v 1500w Custom 1/2 fatty bannaseat hardtail hub streetbike - The modern electric "stingray" mullet bike :bolt: E-Goat Sur-Ron

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sens_dep   1 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sens_dep » May 13 2020 6:21pm

Quick few questions about the battery, specifically the lp-20 connector. It’s +1 for positive and +2 for negative, but which ones? I noticed the top one is a bit longer than the bottom two, is that the positive?

And when it comes to chargers, if I bought an xt-90 charger and adapted it to the cnlinko lp-20, is it okay that the two negatives share the same wire?

LeRdubois   10 µW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by LeRdubois » May 14 2020 12:10am

Hello guys new here,
In the process of building a 21" front for my surron, obviously moto rim with mtb hub. i wonder what kind of nipples you guys used ? using washers to maké it fit like i saw on motoped here ?

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » May 14 2020 8:11am

don't use washers.. use spoke nipples special made to match bike hub to moto rim.. :

ebay.com/itm/E-BIKE-MOPED-SUR-RON-MOTOPED-12-13-GAUGE-CUSTOM-WICKED-WHEELWERKS-MOTO-NIPS/
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

AZeBikeGuy   10 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » May 14 2020 8:41am

I'm continually seduced by the prospect of getting one of these.... but....

The tires look skinny to me seeing as I ride in a lot of deep sand and gravel washes... perhaps if they are aired down enough it might be passable... Anyone riding these in deep sand? How much of a handful are they in the deep loose stuff?

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » May 14 2020 8:55am

there's a Florida surron group .. guys ride the bike on sandy mx tracks, etc.. but with 72volts, a huge rear sprocket and widest tires that fit.. deep sand will eat your range for lunch..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » May 14 2020 9:23am

LeRdubois wrote:
May 14 2020 12:10am
Hello guys new here,
In the process of building a 21" front for my surron, obviously moto rim with mtb hub. i wonder what kind of nipples you guys used ? using washers to maké it fit like i saw on motoped here ?
Yes I would use these nipples as were recommended. This assumes you are going to use 12 gauge spokes. If you were to build a rim using 10 gauge or smaller spokes, which is not recommended, then I would use the brass buchanan nipples, they are the best.
You have to be careful whose nipples you use as the quality does matter and it says on this listing these are good quality. I used cheap quality steel nipples once and the nipples were really garbage, the spokes would pull out of them easily.

I personally used the sur-ron steel nipples that I removed off of my rim. You always have that option also. They are good quality nipples.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/E-BIKE-MOPED-S ... SwqvxeJ5Yk

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X-Nitro   1 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by X-Nitro » May 14 2020 9:56am

The nipples that come on the sur ron wheels are are complete rubbish and belong in the trash is more like it. :thumb:
As for the spoke seller, I've been waiting over two weeks just for another 18" set... :(
Last edited by X-Nitro on May 14 2020 7:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
:shock: 48v 1500w Custom 1/2 fatty bannaseat hardtail hub streetbike - The modern electric "stingray" mullet bike :bolt: E-Goat Sur-Ron

AZeBikeGuy   10 W

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » May 14 2020 11:06am

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
May 14 2020 8:55am
there's a Florida surron group .. guys ride the bike on sandy mx tracks, etc.. but with 72volts, a huge rear sprocket and widest tires that fit.. deep sand will eat your range for lunch..
I don't ever ride exclusively in deep sand but in the AZ deserts some silly deep soft stuff is generally inevitable on any given ride so while I'm not concerned it's enough to bring big range issue it's enough to cause other issues - i.e biffing... I'm getting too old to biff a lot.

I've got tons of experience wrestling large motos in the deep soft stuff (like I say, it's inevitable out here), I could even handle a 650lb loaded down R11GS... but I don't want to wrestle anymore and it's why I'm very interested in these lighter weight options

I'm riding a BBSHD bike with 4.8x26" minions at generally ~8psi and laugh at sand and other deep and loose stuff... I just have a nasty feeling it may laugh back at me on a sur-ron... I suppose I can air down for the deep stuff but since I don't ride it exclusively in that it doesn't make much sense for the >90% of the ride where that will invite pinch flats, etc...

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » May 18 2020 9:44am

What I don't get is you guys who ride in areas where you can legally ride dirt bikes. You also ride in areas which really would be better with a bigger bike and the suspension, I would assume, since I have not rode a larger bike, a larger bike would be better in those situations.

Why would you not get a larger bike like this one? You will also have a motor that is water cooled. The Sur-Ron may overheat if you start riding in high temps if you upgrade the controller. Even my Sur-Ron motor is getting burning hot to the touch with my new nuclear controller in 80 degree temps. The overdrive and extra power really overheats motors, especially when they are not water cooled. You are in arizona, 100 deg temps are going to be a big issue with heat.

Another nice thing is these bikes can easily take the larger tires, 4" tires no problem. The suspension is probably also tuned for these larger tires.

I'm even considering getting one of these here for NYC KTM E-XC 2020


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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » May 18 2020 9:53am

I would say one is an ebike and the other is a motorcycle, so there's the difference in where you can ride those.. also, weight, cost and tuneability play in.. best to have both, emoto and light bee..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

KeithT   100 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by KeithT » May 18 2020 10:28am

KTM E-XC is heavy at 245lbs. I have a Zero FX but like the Sur-Ron much better on tight single track trails because of the light weight, power isn't everything. And I've had KTM's, 360 2 stroke and 640 ADV. Better suspension and more power than the FX but electric wins for me. A new entry is the Ubco FRX1. Looks a lot like the Light Bee, a little heavier and a lot more expensive. Lots of choices. https://www.ubcobikes.com/us/frx1-trail-bike/

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by LeRdubois » May 18 2020 10:40am

@efMX & @Offroader thank you both nipples on the way :bigthumb:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » May 18 2020 12:47pm

Offroader wrote:
May 18 2020 9:44am
What I don't get is you guys who ride in areas where you can legally ride dirt bikes. You also ride in areas which really would be better with a bigger bike and the suspension, I would assume, since I have not rode a larger bike, a larger bike would be better in those situations.

Why would you not get a larger bike like this one?
Weight sucks... since getting into electric bikes a few years ago I love the silly light weight... I've gotten old and disabled (missing a leg) and I just don't find the motivation to dealing with the big iron... The KTM is nice but it wouldn't likely get ridden that much... Not to mention the huge cost difference - the KTM is way beyond my budget... I think a Sur-ron would see a whole lot more use and if someone were to consider riding it where bicycles are ok but motos not, a bit easier to pull it off with the sur-ron... not that I'm advocating anything illegal LOL
Offroader wrote:
May 18 2020 9:44am
You will also have a motor that is water cooled. The Sur-Ron may overheat if you start riding in high temps if you upgrade the controller. Even my Sur-Ron motor is getting burning hot to the touch with my new nuclear controller in 80 degree temps. The overdrive and extra power really overheats motors, especially when they are not water cooled. You are in arizona, 100 deg temps are going to be a big issue with heat.
Hahaha 100°F isn't hot!!! We've been seeing that for a good part of this month and it's still spring time... I don't usually start whining pre-monsoon until we see >45°C (113°F) and even after the monsoon rolls in >40°C doesn't slow me down much... I've gone out in 50°C but don't recommend that! You will seriously consider your mortality Image

I remember discussing with some BBSHD guys about they were worried that their motors were nearly too hot to touch... And my response is "what about when they are way too hot to touch before you've even turned it on?"

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » May 18 2020 1:22pm

KeithT wrote:
May 18 2020 10:28am
KTM E-XC is heavy at 245lbs. I have a Zero FX but like the Sur-Ron much better on tight single track trails because of the light weight, power isn't everything. And I've had KTM's, 360 2 stroke and 640 ADV. Better suspension and more power than the FX but electric wins for me. A new entry is the Ubco FRX1. Looks a lot like the Light Bee, a little heavier and a lot more expensive. Lots of choices. https://www.ubcobikes.com/us/frx1-trail-bike/

That frx1 is the production version of the Neematic. Search the forum for Neematic and you will find out the long way it had from idea to actually being a product people can buy.

It is a few lbs heavier then the sur ron but promises more power. But then again almost 2.5 times as expensive as the sur ron so that would sure get you a lot of upgrades for the sur ron, including a 80v battery pack, upgraded controller, better suspension and better wheels and tires. Don't know really if the frx1 is "all that" anymore. If they had manged to release the bike at the initial time line it would have hit the market before the sur ron, and it would have been a whole different game.

Maybe the frx1 will compete against the RevX. At least price wise they are a close match. And it seems people who have ridden the RevX is very pleased, despite the price so surly that is one contender to consider before signing the dotted line for a frx1 purchase.

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