Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Dec 31 2019 9:21pm

StuInFH wrote:
Dec 31 2019 12:52pm
:arrow:
Sorry I've reached that age that I can't seem to learn any more emjoi's. Don't know what that arrow means :oops:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by amberwolf » Jan 01 2020 12:00am

StuInFH wrote:
Dec 31 2019 12:52pm
:arrow:
Ah, I see this is one of *those* jackasses that when he gets his answer he deletes everything he posted and wont answer any questions so he can get the rest of the help needed to fix the problem.


Just another to add to the ignore list so I can be sure never to bother trying to help again. :roll:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Tommm » Jan 01 2020 11:21pm

Maybe a mod can revert this idiots posts so the discussion makes sense again.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Kauaiguy » Jan 03 2020 4:37pm

Primary drive chain upgrade:I bought the kit from Luna,but there kit included the wrong motor sprocket ( was the 14t that bolts to the jack shaft,flat,no hub.While waiting for Luna to ship the right version I found a 12t go cart 420 sprocket in 3/4 bore,needed to be honed to fit the Sur-Ron motor shaft but it lined up fine.I had also changed my stock 48 to a 54t sprocket.So overall ,top speed reduced to 36mph with a full battery,regeneration braking much stronger affect.I might try the 48t again and see what that top speed will be.On EBay there is a seller that has the primary drive sprockets from 30-34 so a lot of gearing options when you go to all chain drive.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 07 2020 4:36am

apologies if this has been answered, but cant find it trawling most the 170+ pages...

is there any confirmation on the bikes pin-outs? namely from the X controller? im specifically interested in the 3 pin triangle connector... can only find the 'other end' of the large white, little red stripe cable going to the main screen on the handlebars. the other two (purple and large white little black) - cant find where they go?

cheers

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Jan 07 2020 4:45am

sn0wchyld wrote:
Jan 07 2020 4:36am
apologies if this has been answered, but cant find it trawling most the 170+ pages...

is there any confirmation on the bikes pin-outs? namely from the X controller? im specifically interested in the 3 pin triangle connector... can only find the 'other end' of the large white, little red stripe cable going to the main screen on the handlebars. the other two (purple and large white little black) - cant find where they go?

cheers
It appears to connect to the kickstand sensor:

Image

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Jan 07 2020 11:19am

anyone upgrading the surron with nucular controller: get a domino throttle.
stock throttle works also but now i could compare both surrons with a nuc and the stock throttle is not that smooth as the nuc/domino package.

to be honest. worlds difference in smoothness.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 07 2020 5:16pm

Merlin wrote:
Jan 07 2020 11:19am
anyone upgrading the surron with nucular controller: get a domino throttle.
stock throttle works also but now i could compare both surrons with a nuc and the stock throttle is not that smooth as the nuc/domino package.

to be honest. worlds difference in smoothness.
I'll be trying mine with a finger (modified thumb) throttle to start, as I've had a couple of mishaps with the full twist, but agreed ive found the cable pull lacks a lot in the smoothness department, my stealth has more power (and almost as much torque) but is far, far easier to modulate due entirely imo to the throttle. I can hold the stealth stationary on a slight uphill using only the motor, and take off slow or fast as I please - absolutely no way to do this on the surron without bliping the throttle on and off... Shame, as I can see the advantages in the cable throttle, but smooth and accurate control are a must particularly with no clutch and the instant response of electric power systems.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Observeder » Jan 07 2020 8:50pm

Merlin wrote:
Jan 07 2020 11:19am
anyone upgrading the surron with nucular controller: get a domino throttle.
stock throttle works also but now i could compare both surrons with a nuc and the stock throttle is not that smooth as the nuc/domino package.

to be honest. worlds difference in smoothness.
Are there any extra wires or connectors that are needed from Nucular to make this work? The description for the throttle mentions a built in micro-switch that could be used for regen purposes. We're you able to set this feature up?

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Jan 07 2020 10:14pm

you could use the switch. but you dont need.
wiring is pretty simple to the display and you can setup regen also as you like.
with a left thumb throttle as variable regen or slide recharge aka throttle off regen.

means you close the throttle, regen engages. of course the strength you can setup in amps you like up to a blocking rear wheel =)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Observeder » Jan 08 2020 8:57am

Awesome, thanks for the info. Now I just have to be patient and wait for my Nucular to be ready.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Kauaiguy » Jan 09 2020 3:56pm

Primary chain drive kit:Anyone else running this kit?I put o ring chain for the primary drive kit and it runs kinda hot,about 135-140f ( can’t hold on to it) after about 5 mintues use.Is this amount of chain heat normal?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 09 2020 4:32pm

Kauaiguy wrote:
Jan 09 2020 3:56pm
Primary chain drive kit:Anyone else running this kit?I put o ring chain for the primary drive kit and it runs kinda hot,about 135-140f ( can’t hold on to it) after about 5 mintues use.Is this amount of chain heat normal?
No but that does sound way too hot... how tight is the chain? it should have just a little bit of play/slack. also make sure its well lubed. I've had chain running on a high rpm stage and it didn't get above ambient (12t to 60t running at ~4krpm at the 12t sprocket)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jan 09 2020 7:07pm

Kauaiguy wrote:
Jan 09 2020 3:56pm
Primary chain drive kit:Anyone else running this kit?I put o ring chain for the primary drive kit and it runs kinda hot,about 135-140f ( can’t hold on to it) after about 5 mintues use.Is this amount of chain heat normal?
How tight is your primary drive chain? Too tight with heat things up. You don't want much slack, but a little tiny bit of slack is ideal. maybe 1/8 inch play with 2-3 pounds of pressure right in the middle of the drive sprocket and counter shaft sprocket. On the secondary drive, you can slack things out to 1/4 of an inch with 2-3 pounds of pressure. You don't want it banjo string tight.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Kauaiguy » Jan 09 2020 8:41pm

I readjusted to a looser tension,just a little give in the chain now.Its a little cooler and less noisy .

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 09 2020 11:01pm

Kauaiguy wrote:
Jan 09 2020 8:41pm
I readjusted to a looser tension,just a little give in the chain now.Its a little cooler and less noisy .
has the chain been washed at any point? particularly with any solvents? also might be worth checking for any stiff links, particularly if a chain breaker has been used. Also check that the tension is the same at every sprocket position - chain may have been stretched in some spots resulting in positions where it'll be tight, and others where it'll be loose.

If all things are 'well and correct' the chain really shouldn't get hot (or even more than slightly warm) at all.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Jan 10 2020 8:09am

Kauaiguy wrote:
Jan 09 2020 8:41pm
I readjusted to a looser tension,just a little give in the chain now.Its a little cooler and less noisy .
A chain shouldn't be even close to tight - should have plenty of play

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jan 10 2020 11:12am

AZeBikeGuy wrote:
Jan 10 2020 8:09am
Kauaiguy wrote:
Jan 09 2020 8:41pm
I readjusted to a looser tension,just a little give in the chain now.Its a little cooler and less noisy .
A chain shouldn't be even close to tight - should have plenty of play
These bikes can have the chain semi tight with very minimal slack and should be adjusted that way. Unlike motorcycles, there is no change in the secondary drive chain tension when the suspension is compressed or extended unlike motorcycles, because the pivot shares the same location as the secondary drive shaft sprocket. And because these bikes don't have a chain guide, you don't want alot of play or slack in the chain. If there is a lot of play in the chain, it could derail off the sprocket.

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Jan 10 2020 11:13am

Kauaiguy wrote:
Jan 09 2020 8:41pm
I readjusted to a looser tension,just a little give in the chain now.Its a little cooler and less noisy .
Glad to hear it, I did the same on my SurRon and it made a noticeable difference, not just in noise, but less drag when off the throttle coasting.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Jan 10 2020 1:40pm

Rix wrote:
Jan 10 2020 11:12am
These bikes can have the chain semi tight with very minimal slack and should be adjusted that way. Unlike motorcycles, there is no change in the secondary drive chain tension when the suspension is compressed or extended unlike motorcycles, because the pivot shares the same location as the secondary drive shaft sprocket. And because these bikes don't have a chain guide, you don't want alot of play or slack in the chain. If there is a lot of play in the chain, it could derail off the sprocket.
I understood that and I wasn't trying to say with my brief [muddled?] statement that it should be sloppy enough to be able to be pulled away from the sprocket, but it shouldn't be anything close to to "tight" for sure

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Re: Sur-Ron LBX

Post by Boom Storm » Jan 11 2020 4:33pm

I know they have been delaying over and over, (and probably costly), but the forthcoming battery/controller kit from Luna seems promising ?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Jan 11 2020 4:38pm

not really. 24s/100v is not the best idea.
for hot rod, all time running @ 60mph maybe. but if your avg speed is more 30mph you run all time less efficient as the 16s/18s package.
i think 18s would be the sweet spot and 20s acceptable.

but i didnt expect something brillant from a guy who ask the surron developer why he didnt use a bicycle chain....

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 11 2020 6:52pm

Merlin wrote:
Jan 11 2020 4:38pm
not really. 24s/100v is not the best idea.
for hot rod, all time running @ 60mph maybe. but if your avg speed is more 30mph you run all time less efficient as the 16s/18s package.
i think 18s would be the sweet spot and 20s acceptable.

but i didnt expect something brillant from a guy who ask the surron developer why he didnt use a bicycle chain....
huh? the switching losses from running at 30mph with a 60mph top speed is negligible. bigger issue I see with 24s is that it nessesitates using a higher voltage controller - 20s would be more useful because thats the voltage where fet power density peaks

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Jan 11 2020 7:51pm

average. not continue. with 100v and stock gearing the surron will hit 80+ mph.

if you design any EV, yes. go with very high voltage but also design the motor for it.

high voltage on the surron motor brings efficiency down (up)to ~60% (if you ride it normal) (justins motor calculator show that pretty easy)
if you ride it offroad with even lover average speed (and probably more power) you generate alot of/way more heat.

yea, your display shows you have a badass surron with 12-15kw of power. but thats for the luna surron facebook group guys.
most have basicly 0 knowledge that efficiency is the key in every way. power, heat, distance/range.

if you creep up a hill with a 100v surron at 10-15mph/5kw its probalby 2500w heat you generate in losses. dont wonder when your stock surron guy tops the hill with half the temperature.

btw: luna want to bring a package. not only a battery. so he will sell this as a package. probably asi. i dont know.
there are alot of speedheads. and all offroad buddies who will find out what luna sold will anyway deleted from public.
thats how he handle it any day of the week. :D

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Jan 11 2020 9:24pm

Merlin wrote:
Jan 11 2020 7:51pm
average. not continue. with 100v and stock gearing the surron will hit 80+ mph.

if you design any EV, yes. go with very high voltage but also design the motor for it.

high voltage on the surron motor brings efficiency down (up)to ~60% (if you ride it normal) (justins motor calculator show that pretty easy)
if you ride it offroad with even lover average speed (and probably more power) you generate alot of/way more heat.

yea, your display shows you have a badass surron with 12-15kw of power. but thats for the luna surron facebook group guys.
most have basicly 0 knowledge that efficiency is the key in every way. power, heat, distance/range.

if you creep up a hill with a 100v surron at 10-15mph/5kw its probalby 2500w heat you generate in losses. dont wonder when your stock surron guy tops the hill with half the temperature.

btw: luna want to bring a package. not only a battery. so he will sell this as a package. probably asi. i dont know.
there are alot of speedheads. and all offroad buddies who will find out what luna sold will anyway deleted from public.
thats how he handle it any day of the week. :D
if you crawl up a hill using 5kw it wont make a jot of difference (assuming same gearing obviously) weather you have a 100v or a 50v pack - you'll generate the same heat. crawling up requires a given amount of torque - which requires a given amount of phase current - which results in a given amount of copper loss (heat) - the speed generates a given amount of iron loss (purely rpm dependant, power input/pack voltage is irrelevant). The motor doesn't know if your pack is 10v or 10kv. its just got a given current in its windings and a given eddy current in its iron - the culmination of which is a given amount of heat generation.

Your controller may get a little hotter stepping down to 30% of OCV than it would with a lower pack voltage (ie stepping down to 60% OCV - but these losses are minimal anyway. This is also the key point - your controller is stepping down the voltage from your pack to your motor in order to control the phase currents in the motor... so be it 60v or 100v or any other V... the motor only ever 'sees' what the controller wants it to 'see'.

it sounds like your mis-using the motor sim - use the same motor, same controller with the same phase current limit and adjust the 100v pack so it matches the speed/power draw of the 60V pack - and you'll find it has the same (or near enough) efficiency + power use, same hill climb ability and thus same heat generated.

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