Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by motomoto » Dec 28 2019 1:16am

Just came across this on Youtube, someone copied my design exactly. Luna is so creative. Eric thinks he is punishing me by ripping off all my sprocket designs including all the Bafang sprockets except for one which he paid for. The others he copied exactly. I wanted to be a part of the Sur-ron sales. He told me he had to control the sales of this bike because it had too much value and it would ruin the market, so he made sure there were no dealers, only him making money and keeping sales low. Segway knows what the sales should be and will run him out of town. God and I know the truth, and it will all work out.
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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 28 2019 2:01am

Damn, that's lame.

I really wanted to like Luna, but they've let me down at every turn. Only good thing I could say about them is I love my Sur Ron.

Send them a design bill for $20,000. If they don't pay up, sue em. Chances are it would get settled long before a jury is selected.

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Offroader   100 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Dec 28 2019 10:50am

Luna isn't making all that much profit from each bike are they? How much profit margin is there really on this bike.

Honestly, the Sur-Ron is dirt cheap for what you get and included in that price is the 25% tariffs that nobody can get around.

To Luna defense, they took on the risk to take in high numbers of the bike and nobody else seemed interested. That is why they got the exclusive deal to sell them. I believe they took in high numbers of the bike and were also limited on how much they could sell the bike for, because Sur-Ron wanted to sell high quantity of the bike and not have dealers place a $5K price tag on the bike as that would have been the case.

Honestly, it was a no brainier for Luna because for the price and what you get it was going to sell well. But I think people were hesitant because it didn't have pedals and I'm surprised so many people are actually buying the Sur-Ron considering it does not have pedals.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Dec 28 2019 11:45am

Merlin wrote:
Dec 27 2019 11:53am
i mean the stock surron battery. they using PF cells. 10A rated. so in a 11p config you have 110A "only"
but thats OK since the whole bike has stock power of ~5KW only. BMS cuts at ~85A.

PF Cells are well known for longlivety.

The new Surron has VTC6. So if same qulity of Battery build comes here into play the stock storm bee battery will pretty good as well.

theres still no competition out there what can beat the price/quality of surrons light bee.
I agree, and it is even hard to build your own with matching specs and matching price unless you got some parts already laying around.

For those that are running sur ron with upgraded controllers and way more power I do see the need to a bigger pack.

If people do think there are a market for bigger sur ron packs, why not embrace that idea and make it into business?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Dec 28 2019 11:53am

motomoto wrote:
Dec 28 2019 1:16am
Just came across this on Youtube, someone copied my design exactly. Luna is so creative. Eric thinks he is punishing me by ripping off all my sprocket designs including all the Bafang sprockets except for one which he paid for. The others he copied exactly. I wanted to be a part of the Sur-ron sales. He told me he had to control the sales of this bike because it had too much value and it would ruin the market, so he made sure there were no dealers, only him making money and keeping sales low. Segway knows what the sales should be and will run him out of town. God and I know the truth, and it will all work out.
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At this side of the pond we don't really know much about Luna as there are more the one sur ron seller. So I don't know anything about the service or way of doing business.

But stealing your design that is IP theft and that is a federal crime. If Luna bought one sprocket from you, then did a carbon copy and resell to their customers without any legal agreement with you in regards to your cut of the profit you can take them to court or likely solve the case just by hiring a lawyer. I don't think corporate theft is any more OK then when individual become criminals. Protect your work and go see a lawyer. If they put in an order there is even a money trail, should be easy to prove along with your written communication etc.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Dec 28 2019 1:26pm

st35326 wrote:
Dec 27 2019 11:57pm
Are you suggesting Sur-Ron has plans to abandon its current PF cell and move to the VTC6 in all bike? If so, where did you come about such information?
3DTOPO wrote:
Dec 28 2019 12:43am
I think he is talking about the Storm Bee that apparently has Sony VTC6 cells...
Double checked what I wrote :p

... Yea of course I mean the storm bee or whatever the name will be.

The "light bee" or fire fly will continue pf cells. Simply because it works and is enough.

About the copy design of a sprocket.. Not sure but if no patent is registered (if possible) where start a copy?

The needed specs for running a 420 chain can't be different. Only the sprocket "look"...

But if I compare to cars when you flip of all badges, paint them all white hard to say which is one and the other.

Luna stories are endless. I hear so much shit from so many ppl that aren't jumped in to ev with the surron lately.

There is so much ev stuff coming next years. I think our diy days are counting.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Dec 28 2019 1:39pm

I think the guy who built the hard "saddle bag" parallel batteries in pelican cases has a brilliant idea. No need to ditch the stock battery when you can simply parallel another BMS and run double the power. Would be even better in some custom molded lightweight enclosures.

The item which I really think is lacking is a raising link for the rear plus a tall seat (possibly also housing a battery) and a set of Crf150 forks.

Were I in an area where a Sur-ron made sense those are things I'd be looking at very hard.

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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Dec 28 2019 3:53pm

About the copy design of a sprocket.. Not sure but if no patent is registered (if possible) where start a copy?
I am no legal expert or lawyer, I am just your average Joe, so I couldn't tell what is legally correct here. But from a layman's view buying a product then make a carbon copy to sell that same product is the same as stealing. The good thing about that purchase is the money trail it left. I am sure a any decent lawyer can tell if this is case worth looking into or not.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 28 2019 6:29pm

Merlin wrote:
Dec 28 2019 1:26pm
Double checked what I wrote :p
... Yea of course I mean the storm bee or whatever the name will be.
Helps if you say what you mean :wink:

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Dec 28 2019 6:56pm

Merlin wrote:
Dec 27 2019 11:53am
i mean the stock surron battery. they using PF cells. 10A rated. so in a 11p config you have 110A "only"
but thats OK since the whole bike has stock power of ~5KW only. BMS cuts at ~85A.

PF Cells are well known for longlivety.

The new Surron has VTC6. So if same qulity of Battery build comes here into play the stock storm bee battery will pretty good as well.

theres still no competition out there what can beat the price/quality of surrons light bee.
:D

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Dec 28 2019 7:03pm

Merlin wrote:
Dec 28 2019 6:56pm
The new Surron has VTC6. So if same qulity of Battery build comes here into play the stock storm bee battery will pretty good as well.
Not to nitpick, but its not entirely clear what you meant there.

When you said "the new Surron", that could be interpreted as a new model of the Light Bee (esp. since that is what was being discussed). Then that ambiguity is somewhat compounded by stating the Storm Bee separately - which makes it sound like you are talking about two different models and not just the Storm Bee.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Dec 28 2019 7:35pm

my bad.

the storm bee is real.
the "upgrade" light bee is just hoax.

Light Bee: Panasonic PF
Storm Bee: Sony VTC 6

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Rix   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Dec 28 2019 9:27pm

motomoto wrote:
Dec 28 2019 1:16am
Just came across this on Youtube, someone copied my design exactly. Luna is so creative. Eric thinks he is punishing me by ripping off all my sprocket designs including all the Bafang sprockets except for one which he paid for. The others he copied exactly. I wanted to be a part of the Sur-ron sales. He told me he had to control the sales of this bike because it had too much value and it would ruin the market, so he made sure there were no dealers, only him making money and keeping sales low. Segway knows what the sales should be and will run him out of town. God and I know the truth, and it will all work out.
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This is BS, and you are not the only one that has had issues with Eric. Hang in there.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Dec 29 2019 4:35am

Rix wrote:
Dec 28 2019 9:27pm
motomoto wrote:
Dec 28 2019 1:16am
Just came across this on Youtube, someone copied my design exactly. Luna is so creative. Eric thinks he is punishing me by ripping off all my sprocket designs including all the Bafang sprockets except for one which he paid for. The others he copied exactly. I wanted to be a part of the Sur-ron sales. He told me he had to control the sales of this bike because it had too much value and it would ruin the market, so he made sure there were no dealers, only him making money and keeping sales low. Segway knows what the sales should be and will run him out of town. God and I know the truth, and it will all work out.
58.png
This is BS, and you are not the only one that has had issues with Eric. Hang in there.
yep very shitty thing to do - particularly when its so easy to make your own sprocket, im at a loss as to why they did such a blatant carbon copy?

Was planning on one of their new surron batteries but will just build my own now. not sending money to a company that does that (short of hearing that they've given you some $$ for the design)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Jasonjm » Dec 30 2019 1:39am

I worked with over 100 companies on an annual basis.
I can tell you from where i sit, Luna cycles is run like an amatuer shit show.

I own a sur ron purchased in europe through a European distributor, they were great.

I would much rather buy a segway in the USA, vs a Luna cycles surron.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by StuInFH » Dec 30 2019 7:10pm

:arrow:
Last edited by StuInFH on Dec 31 2019 8:48pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by StuInFH » Dec 30 2019 7:36pm

:arrow:
Last edited by StuInFH on Dec 31 2019 8:49pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kauaiguy   10 mW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Kauaiguy » Dec 30 2019 9:54pm

Could it be that they sent you the 48v version Sur-Ron battery?Otherwise it sounds damaged and might be a fire hazard.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by st35326 » Dec 31 2019 12:32am

Merlin wrote:
Dec 28 2019 7:35pm
my bad.

the storm bee is real.
the "upgrade" light bee is just hoax.

Light Bee: Panasonic PF
Storm Bee: Sony VTC 6
Uh huh.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by amberwolf » Dec 31 2019 12:59am

StuInFH wrote:
Dec 30 2019 7:36pm

Battery arrived with digital display on battery showing 88%.
Voltage at terminals was 41V.
What specifically is this battery supposed to be?

Is it a 52v (14s), 48v (13s), 72v (20s), or what?

Knowing what it is supposed to be helps tell you something about it's present state.

For instance, 41v is close to full for a 36v pack, but is beyond completely dead for a 72v pack, and would imply a destroyed battery, too discharged to ever be safe to recharge. For a 52v pack it's very discharged, but typically not unsafe to recharge. For a 48v pack, it's almost empty but not quite. But there's no way that is 88% full for any pack size listed above (far too high for 48-72v, too low for 36v).

But...it's more likely given the other behavior that the BMS has shutdown to protect the battery from overdischarge or overcharge, so any voltage you read on the output is just a leakage of the actual voltage.

To find out what the *real* pack state is, you would have to open it up and check the voltage at the main cell block + and - wires, before the BMS.

Then you can also measure the individual BMS cell sense wire voltages, measuring between every two of them. (and possibly between the main negative and the first one, and the main positive and the last one). If all are the same voltage, the cells are balanced and the wires are good. If not, something is wrong with that cell group or it's wiring (or both), or the channel on the BMS (sometimes the balancer gets stuck on and drains the connected cells).


Did rough handling likely cause physical damage to one or more cells/the pack?
You'd have to open it completely up and examine it carefully to determine that.

May also require continuity tests between the cell interconnects and the cells, or voltage readings between them with an applied load on the pack, to ensure none of the interconnects have disconnected from cells.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by thoroughbred » Dec 31 2019 5:43am

It's supposed to be a 16s 60 volt battery, right? I'm wondering, too if you were sent a pack for the 48 volt bikes. What did the packaging look like as far as warning labels etc?

I would try to return it and get a new one. Failing that, I would open it up and post here with pictures to get advice how to diagnose it and fix it yourself. Failing that, I wouldn't ship your own charger to the repair shop until they open the damaged case up and verify what the physical damage is ie broken components, connections, damaged cells, etc.

What would Luna do if they sent you a damaged battery?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by macribs » Dec 31 2019 10:51am

StuInFH wrote:
Dec 30 2019 7:36pm
Looking for help diagnosing drop-damaged OEM Light Bee battery please.

Unfortunately vendor only used 1" of foam inside the cardboard box to ship the 20# battery. Arrived with cracked bottom case and a couple pieces of the white plastic internal structure broke off the outside of the pack, halfway up the case. They are less than 1/4" in size, and appear to encircle the cells and make contact with the sides of the case.

Sorry to hear that. I feel for you. You should contact the seller as quickly as possible and see if they can take this with the shipping company so that you don't end up with a useless pack. I hope it all works out.

for others I would say you need to start rejecting damaged shipment at the door. Tell them you will not accept damaged goods. And contact the seller rapidly and inform them why you declined the shipment, and that you will accept the next if shipment arrives unharmed.

Especially for dense, heavy, brittle and expensive shipments like batteries this is of most importance. That way you ensure you don't end up paying the bill for bad packaging or clumsy delivery drivers.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by StuInFH » Dec 31 2019 12:52pm

:arrow:
Last edited by StuInFH on Dec 31 2019 8:50pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Kauaiguy » Dec 31 2019 1:31pm

The 60v battery is suppose to weight 20lb,I think the 48v weighs less,maybe you could weight both your packs.I wouldn’t trust a Chinese vender or they made an honest labeling mistake.If you can prove it’s not the correct version,then you should be able to get all your money back from your cc on “ not as described “.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Kauaiguy » Dec 31 2019 1:40pm

I found the Sur-Ron battery specs,48v is 9.3kg and uses 140 HighStar cells,the 60v is 10.9 kg and uses 170 Panasonic cells.

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