New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Jun 02 2020 9:31am

There are people doing that with overvolted hub mtors. Either ATF, or metallic colloidal suspensions (ferro fluids) that cling to the magnets. But they say the 10x higher RPM of the mid motors makes it less practical. There is a lot of improvement to be had already by filling the air gap between the cover and stator with metal plates and TIM , or even just TIM pads. One difference is that the magnets on a hub motor are on the outside and hold the ferro fluid in a useful position.
Liquid cooling isn't "better" than air cooling. The heat has to be transfered to the air at some point. If you have air cooling with fins and air flow it's just as good until you need more surface area, then you get into pumps and radiators and fans. Heat is energy. It's coming from your battery.Overcooling has a price also.
Last edited by Retrorockit on Jun 02 2020 9:44am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Jun 02 2020 9:39am

Headless wrote:
Jun 02 2020 6:13am
Has anyone tried oil-cooling the motor and controller yet? .....
Yes, NexusG did an experiment with filling the motorcase with oil.

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Jun 02 2020 9:56am

ATF is thinner, and has Anti foaming properties. If you want to do this you can clean the grease out of the roller/sprag clutches also. ATF is the perfect lube for those. ATF has become the normal lube for a lot of manual transmissions, and even the final drive on fwd cars. Adding fins to the outside of the cover will be useful just as with air cooling. The drag of the rotor in the ATF will tend to heat up the fluid. Leaks will probably happen. But I'm all in favor of someone else trying it.

Headless   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Headless » Jun 02 2020 12:25pm

Interesting! I had missed the experiment by NexusG, but I wasn't suggesting filling both sides of the casing, just the motor-side which houses the controller as well. This side looks pretty much sealed, but the other side has the rotating shaft coming out of it. Improving conduction/convection of heat away from the shell of the motor and power electronics by using a higher-density medium should improve short-term overheating but wouldn't be as useful in the longer-term. Unless you add a radiator etc. which as you say comes at a price.
Retrorockit wrote:
Jun 02 2020 9:56am
But I'm all in favor of someone else trying it.
:lol: Me too! Maybe when the next motor fails?!?

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Jun 02 2020 1:02pm

Somewhere there is a shaft from the motor into the gearcase. It probably won't be sealed because there was just air in both sides. You might ask NexusG what happened there. Who knows may be you'll end up with an automatic drip chain oiler.

NexusG   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by NexusG » Jun 03 2020 1:46pm

I still have one of my TSDZ2 filled with 5W20 engine oil. In order to do so, I simply drilled a small hole at the bottom of the case (and motor side) and injected the oil with a syringe. Then I filled the hole with a small screw and that's all. I took an oil with a low viscosity to reduce the drag.

The motor and the controller run just fine, and the TSDZ2 is quieter, the lubrication must be better !

When I touch the case after a ride, it's very hot but this means that the heat dissipation is better.
As I said before, it doesn't avoid the temperature increase at high power continuous use. In fact, with a high ambiant temperature (30°C) and hilly trail, the oil temperature reaches more than 70°C fairly quickly.

This motor is simply not designed to run at this power for a long time. The copper winding is too thin, there's too much joule losses. The only way to decrease theses losses is to increase the voltage (and lowering the max amp). This is why I recommend to everyone wanting maximum power to use a 14S battery. AZUR have done 500km with a 15S battery without killing the controller.

There could be ways of increasing further the continuous power of the TSDZ2 :
- Remplacing all the magnets with better temperature grade. I don't know if it's possible.
and/or
- Building a oil cooling circuit with a pump and a radiator ? :lol:

But at this point, it would be better to buy a Bafang...

Also, I choose engine oil because I had some on hand but there could be better suited and specific oil, with higher thermal conductivity. Engine oil have a TC of 0.15 W/m/K and silicone oil is 0.6 W/m/K

Regarding the leak, it's small but enough to make a mess when riding a dusty trail :D
However, I did not take any measure to avoid the leak. There are holes (exemple : for the torque sensor wires) that can be filled with silicone and it might avoid the leak. I'm too lazy now to reopen the case and clean everything, I will do that later :lol:

In conclusion, you are not at risk to test the solution but it needs some improvements.
Last edited by NexusG on Jun 04 2020 3:36am, edited 1 time in total.

pgwguk   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by pgwguk » Jun 03 2020 2:12pm

How much oil did you inject into the motor side? I'd be interested to try this out.

AZUR   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AZUR » Jun 03 2020 7:07pm

Hi,

15S2P battery with 21700 cells from Samsung 50E - 5000maH

About the battery with 15S what I can say is that I have done 500km without problems.
But I think I am still in the testing phase and therefore I think it is risky for those who have no technical knowledge about this technology to move to a battery with this configuration.
I made the battery myself with a BMS 15S that has a bluetooth interface for the smartphone. This makes it easy to monitor the battery.
If something goes wrong, I buy a 14S BMS and redo the battery.

In my opinion, at the moment, the safest thing is to make a 14S battery. The difference is also not much.

I think that in another 3 or 4 months with about 1000 km covered, with this battery, we can draw more definitive conclusions.

About TSDZ2 engine power

This engine cannot be compared to the Bafang. The Bafang is also not a torque engine.

It is better to compare this engine with the Brose engine of the new Specialized Turbo Levo SL (Super Light) which has a very light engine, with about 200W nominal. This bike weighs about 17.5 Kg with a 320WH battery.

Details of the test I did yesterday

I weigh 67 kg, plus the backpack and the clothes should reach 71 kg.
My bicycle, total suspension, is about 19.5 kg.
Light wheels 27.5 and light tire width 2.4.

The circuit that I did yesterday and that I use to test this bike, is an aggressive MTB circuit, which has 13.9 km and an accumulation of climbs of about 400 m.
The land is in the forest, with a dirt floor and some gravel, roots and stones.

The ambient temperature was around 22.5 degrees.

The battery was charged close to maximum and about 59V at the beginning of the circuit.

The configuration of the FW / motor was with the maximum current of the battery at 10 Amps and the current of the motor at 16A.

During the 13.9 km, the engine temperature never exceeded 70 degrees. The maximum increase was 47.5 degrees, over the outside temperature.

The average speed was 17.7 KM / h

After this circuit, I started it again but I only did about 2 km with the battery current at 16A and the motor current at 25A.

I had to give up because the engine stopped when it reached 85 degrees.

This motor is not designed to repeatedly and sussessively exceed the 500w peak. In this environment that I exposed.

Below I present some statistics of the circuit I made.
altimetria.jpg
altimetria.jpg (101.02 KiB) Viewed 810 times
Statistics.jpg
Statistics.jpg (89.17 KiB) Viewed 810 times

How to increase the performance of the Engine in order to obtain more power

What I'm thinking of doing, to increase the engine's performance, is to put a good Thermal Pad inside.
Then I will see if it is worth placing some (smaller) fins on the outside just like the Bafang engine has.

The aim is to try to cool the engine down as quickly as possible, preventing the temperature from rising too quickly.

These techniques have already been tested by other participants in this forum.
thermal pad.jpg
thermal pad.jpg (52.3 KiB) Viewed 810 times
alhetas 2.jpg
alhetas 2.jpg (158.56 KiB) Viewed 810 times
alhetas bafang.jpg
alhetas bafang.jpg (69.4 KiB) Viewed 810 times

Anyway, lowering the current of the battery and helping with the strength of the legs, I am quite satisfied with the TSDZ2 engine with Casainho`s FW.

NexusG   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by NexusG » Jun 04 2020 3:51am

Thank you for your feedback AZUR. I have updated my message
The motor that we so much dream of is a torque motor with great power (1000W-1500W), that can be mounted on every bike and with low cost readily available replacement parts. This motor doesn't exist at this time. The Bafang Ultra seems to be a great motor but it needs a specific frame and the spare parts are hard to find.
pgwguk wrote:
Jun 03 2020 2:12pm
How much oil did you inject into the motor side? I'd be interested to try this out.
Good question, I didn't measure the exact quantity. I simply injected the oil until it spills out

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Jun 04 2020 1:38pm

The advantage ATF would have over light motor oil is it has antifoaming additives that keep air from getting churned into it. Also 5W20 is only thin (5W) at room temp. and below, as it heats up it becomes thicker (20W). If the case is getting hot then it's removing heat. I store my ebikes in the house so oil won't be the solution for me. My hope is that with proper cooling the motor might make 750W without overheating. I think oil will cool the magnets in a way that the thermal pads can't. At what point that becomes necessary is unknown so far. It's a known good mod for hub motors with their outer magnets, inner coils, and low RPMs.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Jun 05 2020 2:34am

Retrorockit wrote:
Jun 04 2020 1:38pm
... I store my ebikes in the house so oil won't be the solution for me. ...
I agree. I always hated my ice mopeds for leaking all kind of fluids (gas/petrol, oil, cooling fluid ...) and now that we have clean electric motors we start to bring that hassle to them? Seems like a bad idea. Still I'm investigating ways to cool that tiny motor and remove heat from it faster. Best solution to me still is silicone pads. Wiki has all info we need for it.

thineight   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Jun 07 2020 8:28am

Hello everyone.
I just bought a Mondraker Foxy full suspension and I was wondering which battery may be the best fit for those frames.
In particular I think there are two options: one above the down tube (on the triangular area) or below the down tube.

Which battery type did you use, if you have a frame similar to this one?
foxy.jpg
foxy.jpg (106.07 KiB) Viewed 491 times
My idea is to obtain a capacity of 600+ Wh, so I thing 14Ah is ok with a 48V system.

The red circle is the wheel at suspension fully compressed, the battery used in the example is a Reention Kirin.. printed up to the chinese dimensions shown in the site.

Many thanks
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

andyme   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Jun 07 2020 8:39am

thineight wrote:
Jun 07 2020 8:28am
Hello everyone.
I just bought a Mondraker Foxy full suspension and I was wondering which battery may be the best fit for those frames.
In particular I think there are two options: one above the down tube (on the triangular area) or below the down tube.

Which battery type did you use, if you have a frame similar to this one?

foxy.jpg

My idea is to obtain a capacity of 600+ Wh, so I thing 14Ah is ok with a 48V system.

The red circle is the wheel at suspension fully compressed, the battery used in the example is a Reention Kirin.. printed up to the chinese dimensions shown in the site.

Many thanks
i have no experience in this, but i know what i would attempt to do: as you said: the triangle above..it depends a bit also on the amount of work you want to put into this: i would create a nice casing out of whatever that fits in this area and fill it with batteries, means: i would make the batteries myself. That is what i did on my bike, bought konion vtc6 cells and welded them together. i put them into every tube i could get hold of :lol: ...namely: down and seat tube . they are invisible. So in the case of your bike with this inviting area and the energy you want, the a.m. is what i would do (in my place...). but there are surely many good reasons to go a different way...But i would not want to have a battery below the frame, that is for sure.

barrettrussell   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by barrettrussell » Jun 07 2020 12:50pm

thineight wrote:
Jun 07 2020 8:28am
Hello everyone.
I just bought a Mondraker Foxy full suspension and I was wondering which battery may be the best fit for those frames.
In particular I think there are two options: one above the down tube (on the triangular area) or below the down tube.

Which battery type did you use, if you have a frame similar to this one?

foxy.jpg

My idea is to obtain a capacity of 600+ Wh, so I thing 14Ah is ok with a 48V system.

The red circle is the wheel at suspension fully compressed, the battery used in the example is a Reention Kirin.. printed up to the chinese dimensions shown in the site.

Many thanks
perfect shape frame for a battery inside design, don't ruin it by running one below the dt. take some measurements and find a suitable battery, or make your own. The tongsheng doesn't use much for amps - cheaper, easily obtainable cells such as 25r's are perfect and you could easily setup your own battery for half the cost of a pre-built. imo soldering doesn't effect bat performance if you do it swift.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by barrettrussell » Jun 07 2020 5:09pm

***UPDATE - HALL EFFECT SENSOR REPLACEMENT ***

Some success and repeated failure.

Replaced all 3 hall sensors, motor ran as it should. I put it back together, and installed it on the bike. It worked fine for 20 minutes or so and then the same symptoms. Oddly this time, I took it apart and it worked for a split second and then back to the jittering. I test the sensors, the same middle one was toast- stuck voltage mid way.

I even located another tongsheng motor from an ebike store locally, and it ruined the same hall sensor within 10 minutes on the bench.

Time to try new controller? I can't think of what else could be the cause now.

Thanks.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Jun 07 2020 5:38pm

thineight wrote:
Jun 07 2020 8:28am
Hello everyone.
I just bought a Mondraker Foxy full suspension and I was wondering which battery may be the best fit for those frames.
In particular I think there are two options: one above the down tube (on the triangular area) or below the down tube.

Which battery type did you use, if you have a frame similar to this one?

foxy.jpg

My idea is to obtain a capacity of 600+ Wh, so I thing 14Ah is ok with a 48V system.

The red circle is the wheel at suspension fully compressed, the battery used in the example is a Reention Kirin.. printed up to the chinese dimensions shown in the site.

Many thanks
I did a tight fit inside the triangle on a small frame.
https://electricbike.com/forum/filedata ... ype=medium
I upgraded to a single 6mm pivot stud.
https://electricbike.com/forum/filedata ... 1575484709

vlvuk   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by vlvuk » Jun 08 2020 2:07am

My build:
Image
Case 13S5P - no way to install inside of triangle.
Since last December no problem, but I increased springforce to max value.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 08 2020 2:30am

vlvuk wrote:
Jun 08 2020 2:07am
My build:
Image
Case 13S5P - no way to install inside of triangle.
Since last December no problem, but I increased springforce to max value.
I have a similar bicycle model.

I think you can put your battery pack inside the frame if you remove the plastic enclosure of the battery pack because that ones takes to much space. Also it is not water prof. You can instead put sponge pads and use black strong tape, that will make water prof and smaller size and provide more cushion where it is needed: on the frame attachment and on the laterals -- here is mine and I have 3 like this one and I always clean the mud with water pressure:

Image

See here more details: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... -commuting
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

vlvuk   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by vlvuk » Jun 08 2020 3:08am

casainho wrote:
Jun 08 2020 2:30am

I have a similar bicycle model.

I think you can put your battery pack inside the frame if you remove the plastic enclosure of the battery pack because that ones takes to much space. Also it is not water prof. You can instead put sponge pads and use black strong tape, that will make water prof and smaller size and provide more cushion where it is needed: on the frame attachment and on the laterals -- here is mine and I have 3 like this one and I always clean the mud with water pressure:
Yes, I know, but I want to keep the battery removable, because I have two e-bikes that I often load/unload in the trunk of my car, and with the battery they are too heavy.

nattila   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by nattila » Jun 08 2020 3:33am

Speady wrote:
Apr 23 2018 5:28am
Image
I tried the Steps cranks once as they came in 175mm, they are curved a bit less than the Tongsheng (-8mm), the Bafang is -16mm.
Hi Speady, Do you use 175mm cranks? I guess it is possible to buy Bafang right crank in that size but my TSDZ2 was shipped with 170mm crank. It is possible to buy 175mm TSDZ left crank? Thank you,

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by vlvuk » Jun 08 2020 4:24am

barrettrussell wrote:
Jun 07 2020 5:09pm

I even located another tongsheng motor from an ebike store locally, and it ruined the same hall sensor within 10 minutes on the bench.
In all cases same hall sensor was fried? if yes - seems there is some overload in circuit.
Till you waiting for new controller I can recommend add small resistor ~50-100kOhm after third leg of hall sensor.
May be it solve problem.
Other way - check voltage between first nd second legs, must be not higher 24V.

andyme   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Jun 08 2020 4:27am

Since last night I am a proud owner of 3 working OSF displays: 850C, 860C and newest arrival is SW102

The little one is really a cutie...Now my question:

Anyone who owns both 850/860 and 102: which one has become your favorite and why?

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 08 2020 4:59am

andyme wrote:
Jun 08 2020 4:27am
Since last night I am a proud owner of 3 working OSF displays: 850C, 860C and newest arrival is SW102

The little one is really a cutie...Now my question:

Anyone who owns both 850/860 and 102: which one has become your favorite and why?
You mean you have 3 ebikes? :-)

I own both but I use 860C on my ebike. I like SW102 because it is cheaper, robust and very discrete. Still, I prefer 860C because it shows the motor temperature graph and with that I can better manage max TSDZ2 support because I ride fast (like peaks of 50 km/h) as possible on the city on dangerous streets because they are narrow and with lot of cars at fast speeds. What I don't like on 860C is the fragility in the case of a fall when I do MTB (because is big) and is not discrete but luckily, currently, I don't need to leave my ebike at the street.

But with the next project to make TSDZ2 as an standard wireless ebike motor, I will be able to have a easy removable display with no cables at all, meaning more robust and very discrete when leaving the ebike on the street. And even better than 860C because it will have much more data and graphs, much more customization that is already done and is not part of this project, I mean, we will not need to develop it because others already did - thanks to standardization:

Image

That is my Garmin Edge at side of 860C display. With this new project, I will be able to control TSDZ2 on the Edge and I will not need the 860C anymore. And as you can see, I can see my heart rate on this display, because my watch is reading my heart rate and broadcasting it wireless using standards - so in future, we will have much more flexibility on the data and graphs as also GPS navigation, cycling fitness metrics, etc thanks to using well known brands of cycling computers / displays - there are simple and cheap ones for the price of 860C and others advanced up to 500€. Even DIY a display will be simple. And, wireless remote buttons and mobile app, meaning no need for a display at all.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Jun 08 2020 5:13am

casainho wrote:
Jun 08 2020 4:59am
andyme wrote:
Jun 08 2020 4:27am
Since last night I am a proud owner of 3 working OSF displays: 850C, 860C and newest arrival is SW102

The little one is really a cutie...Now my question:

Anyone who owns both 850/860 and 102: which one has become your favorite and why?
You mean you have 3 ebikes? :-)

I own both but I use 860C on my ebike. I like SW102 because it is cheaper, robust and very discrete. Still, I prefer 860C because it shows the motor temperature graph and with that I can better manage max TSDZ2 support because I ride fast (like peaks of 50 km/h) as possible on the city on dangerous streets because they are narrow and with lot of cars at fast speeds. What I don't like on 860C is the fragility in the case of a fall when I do MTB (because is big) and is not discrete but luckily, currently, I don't need to leave my ebike at the street.

But with the next project to make TSDZ2 as an standard wireless ebike motor, I will be able to have a easy removable display with no cables at all, meaning more robust and very discrete when leaving the ebike on the street. And even better than 860C because it will have much more data and graphs, much more customization that is already done and is not part of this project, I mean, we will not need to develop it because others already did - thanks to standardization:

Image

That is my Garmin Edge at side of 860C display. With this new project, I will be able to control TSDZ2 on the Edge and I will not need the 860C anymore. And as you can see, I can see my heart rate on this display, because my watch is reading my heart rate and broadcasting it wireless using standards - so in future, we will have much more flexibility on the data and graphs as also GPS navigation, cycling fitness metrics, etc thanks to using well known brands of cycling computers / displays - there are simple and cheap ones for the price of 860C and others advanced up to 500€. Even DIY a display will be simple. And, wireless remote buttons and mobile app, meaning no need for a display at all.
OMG.....WOW...I was not aware of this....WTF.....how will i be able to keep up with all of this? wow....

Does this also include a smartphone with a dedicated app?

To answer your first question: no, i have only one and I am just a curious old man with a too big amount of childish behaviour.but: i also have a GF and she will inherit the 850 to begin with...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Jun 08 2020 5:55am

andyme wrote:
Jun 08 2020 5:13am
OMG.....WOW...I was not aware of this....WTF.....how will i be able to keep up with all of this? wow....

Does this also include a smartphone with a dedicated app?

To answer your first question: no, i have only one and I am just a curious old man with a too big amount of childish behaviour.but: i also have a GF and she will inherit the 850 to begin with...
raw is the other developer that is developing the mobile app. I will be developing the firmware only, and there are well documented standards for wireless ebike (the same standards used for Turbo Levo ebike, for instance) and working example firmware. Then, brands like Garmin have that display GPS cycling computers that connects and control the wireless ebikes, and this devices implements advanced fitness metrics, navigation, connection to cycling sensors like pedals power meters and even wireless tire pressure sensors!

Mobile app prototype shown by raw:
Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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