New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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izeman   100 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Dec 28 2019 11:24am

Another question: Does the firmware add FOC features? That would eliminate the need of higher voltage for higher rpm.
FAQ says nothing about that.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 28 2019 11:50am

izeman wrote:
Dec 28 2019 11:21am
ri53hu wrote:
Dec 28 2019 11:19am
izeman
hello, i use this battery 52v 17.5Ah
I have no problem.R.
Thanks. So i will build a 14S battery.
There is an user testing 15S. So far it seems to work ok.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Dec 28 2019 11:56am

casainho wrote:
Dec 28 2019 11:50am
There is an user testing 15S. So far it seems to work ok.
Great. So the quote on PSWPOWER page is only related to original firmware limitation and NOT hardware (like CAPs or FETs inside the controller)?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Speady » Dec 28 2019 1:18pm

Great. So the quote on PSWPOWER page is only related to original firmware limitation and NOT hardware (like CAPs or FETs inside the controller)?
I highly doubt you have much headroom with some 63V Capacitors and a 15x4.2v fully charged battery.
Let's do the maths...mmmmmh :roll:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Dec 28 2019 3:20pm

Speady wrote:
Dec 28 2019 1:18pm
Great. So the quote on PSWPOWER page is only related to original firmware limitation and NOT hardware (like CAPs or FETs inside the controller)?
I highly doubt you have much headroom with some 63V Capacitors and a 15x4.2v fully charged battery.
Let's do the maths...mmmmmh :roll:
Do we know it's 63V CAPs? I assume so, but haven't opened the controller yet. More clever guys here have already done that i guess. With 63V CAPs i wouldn't go for 15S. But my planned 14S should be save.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Speady » Dec 28 2019 4:04pm

Do we know it's 63V CAPs?
I do 😂

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by famichiki » Dec 28 2019 4:10pm

eyebyesickle wrote:
Dec 23 2019 4:55pm
...
famichiki wrote:
Dec 27 2019 8:00pm
If anyone here is running the VLCD5 with factory firmware, would you please be able to go into the torque signal service menu and tell me what readings you get? I have a range of 98 - 190.

Both the initial zero torque reading & the maximum reading you can achieve with your body weight etc.

I have posted details how to check this on the VLCD5 firmware thread here..

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=98281&p=1518298#p1518298
Eyebyesickle, in my quoted linked post I refer to your VLCD5 torque sensor service viewing video.

Does the recommendation for 80 +/- 10 still stand? Are the values I see particularly abnormal?

What's confusing is that this reading is high according to your video, but then with OSF my readings are very low.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by AZUR » Dec 28 2019 5:07pm

izeman wrote:
Dec 28 2019 3:20pm
Speady wrote:
Dec 28 2019 1:18pm
Great. So the quote on PSWPOWER page is only related to original firmware limitation and NOT hardware (like CAPs or FETs inside the controller)?
I highly doubt you have much headroom with some 63V Capacitors and a 15x4.2v fully charged battery.
Let's do the maths...mmmmmh :roll:
Do we know it's 63V CAPs? I assume so, but haven't opened the controller yet. More clever guys here have already done that i guess. With 63V CAPs i wouldn't go for 15S. But my planned 14S should be save.
see this post please:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 0#p1513745

This is my second TSDZ bike I made.

You must decide yourself.

I only give you my experience with no final conclusions yet.

------------------

I already use my 15S1P 21700 LG 5000mAh for more than 100km, 60% mountain.

I put the motor current limited to 10A because this cell only support continuously 10A.

But 850C display indicate a max of 11A when I go hard.

I need to do more tests to have final conclusions, but I´m going to do, now, a 1000W battery with 15S4P with 21700 cells.

I´m an electronic engineer and this is my experience.

1 – CAP have some tolerance. These are not very good CAP so you must have at least 5% tolerance, maybe more.

You can have maybe 66V, or more, with the tolerance.

2 – With a higher voltage you have the same power but with less current.

So, you have the same power in the CAP and in the motor.

In the motor you can have more cadence with more tension.

The limitation we have is in current that increase the motor temperature.

3 – It´s difficult to have a 15S battery with 63V fully charged.

The best I got was 62,7V. Not connected to the motor.

4 – When you connect battery to the motor tension drops immediately to 62,2 V.

5 – As soon you start pedaling tension drops to about 61V.

And 2 or 3 km later you have 60V or less.

Tension drops very fast to the nominal voltage, 55,5V (3,7*15) where it stabilized most of the time.

This is my experience.

Best Regards

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 28 2019 5:11pm

Another problem I got today while riding as usual, small trip of 5 kms around home. Suddenly, I could hear the motor working and see on display the motor ERPS speed at max values of 525 although no help assisting to pull the bicycle...

The motor shaft broke!!! Does anyone knows why did this happen?? -- then I exchanged for a new motor and seems to work fine again on a short ride but tomorrow I will do a long trip during the full day with my wife... I hope the motor shaft will not brake again.......

Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 28 2019 5:56pm

casainho wrote:
Dec 28 2019 5:11pm
Another problem I got today while riding as usual, small trip of 5 kms around home. Suddenly, I could hear the motor working and see on display the motor ERPS speed at max values of 525 although no help assisting to pull the bicycle...

The motor shaft broke!!! Does anyone knows why did this happen?? -- then I exchanged for a new motor and seems to work fine again on a short ride but tomorrow I will do a long trip during the full day with my wife... I hope the motor shaft will not brake again.......

Image
Motor shaft failure is often caused by bad alignment.
If a bearing is not well placed or at a slight angle, or if the axle isn't perfectly straight, this gives a small fluctuation in tangential force causing fatigue in the metal that leads to breakage of the weakest point.
This can be caused by a badly made motor part but also by bad mounting.
If the motor cover (with the bearing in it) isn't 100% "flat mounted", in exactly 90° angle with the axle, or when the center of the bearing isn't perfectly in the center of the axle for example.
Generally it is noticeable if something like this is happening, the motor vibrates more than it should with the exact frequency of the axle.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by john61ct » Dec 29 2019 4:23am

izeman wrote:Another question: Does the firmware add FOC features? That would eliminate the need of higher voltage for higher rpm.
FAQ says nothing about that.
I thought FOC needed purpose-built hardware from the get-go, not least a powerful CPU to crunch the calculations

viewtopic.php?t=101364

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Re: New

Post by izeman » Dec 29 2019 5:53am

john61ct wrote:
Dec 29 2019 4:23am
I thought FOC needed purpose-built hardware from the get-go, not least a powerful CPU to crunch the calculations
casainho mentioned it in one the TSDZ2 threads. But no more details. I'm still going through the many hundred pages of several threads to become up to date 8)

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Re: New

Post by casainho » Dec 29 2019 9:39am

izeman wrote:
Dec 29 2019 5:53am
john61ct wrote:
Dec 29 2019 4:23am
I thought FOC needed purpose-built hardware from the get-go, not least a powerful CPU to crunch the calculations
casainho mentioned it in one the TSDZ2 threads. But no more details. I'm still going through the many hundred pages of several threads to become up to date 8)
Yes, our OpenSource firmware implements "simplified" FOC while original does not, that is why users report motor being more powerful and use less battery.

At initial develop time I was asking on this thread how to do it and I shared my ideas.
Also you can read the comments on the sources of the firmware, where it is very clear the way FOC is implemented.

Simplified FOC, I also implemented on KT motor controllers OpenSource firmware although they have better hardware specific for FOC calculation.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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FOC

Post by izeman » Dec 29 2019 10:26am

casainho wrote:
Dec 29 2019 9:39am
Yes, our OpenSource firmware implements "simplified" FOC while original does not, that is why users report motor being more powerful and use less battery.
Ok. Thanks for explanation. Can you do advanced timing? So the motor can turn faster than it normally would do? Like eg. Lebowski's and Nucular's controller can do it? I know it doesn't make too much sense, as the front chain ring in relation to the smallest rear one determines max speed. And if you hit the max cadence you can pedal the bike won't run faster as the torque sensor won't sense any force anymore. Correct?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by obcd » Dec 29 2019 12:57pm

You could install a 52T front chainring instead of the standard (42T?) one.
That will make it possible to increase speed and still help with pedaling.
It will reduce Torque at lower speeds when you are climbing a hill or mountain.

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Re: FOC

Post by casainho » Dec 29 2019 1:22pm

izeman wrote:
Dec 29 2019 10:26am
casainho wrote:
Dec 29 2019 9:39am
Yes, our OpenSource firmware implements "simplified" FOC while original does not, that is why users report motor being more powerful and use less battery.
Ok. Thanks for explanation. Can you do advanced timing? So the motor can turn faster than it normally would do? Like eg. Lebowski's and Nucular's controller can do it? I know it doesn't make too much sense, as the front chain ring in relation to the smallest rear one determines max speed. And if you hit the max cadence you can pedal the bike won't run faster as the torque sensor won't sense any force anymore. Correct?
That's not my focus to increase max possible cadence that is currently around 92 RPM.
For now the limitation the the PWM frequency and not the battery voltage, as the 48V motor or even the 36V motor can run at 14S 52V or even 15S 55V.

I hope the PWM frequency can be increased by 10 or 20% - someone that is motivated need to develop this feature/improve current PWM frequency.

Our OpenSource firmware is using the same PWM frequency as original firmware.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 30 2019 12:33pm

Improve your TSDZ2 torque sensor

Here is the new release of our OpenSource firmware that improves the TSDZ2 torque sensor: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... 50C_v0.6.1
(sorry, 850C only as currently we have an issue with the SW102 code)

Here is my wife bicycle and my bicycle the torque sensors measurements - the torque sensor of my wife TSDZ2 is way better than my torque sensor, here the comparison:

My TSDZ2 torque sensor:
Image

My wife TSDZ2 torque sensor:
Image

My notes:
1. One torque sensor is kind of linear only up to 15 kgs while other up to 45 kgs. The rate/sensitivity are the same for both on this "linear" zone but clearly mine lacks resolution because this zone is very short. I can do peaks of 40 or 60 kgs on my pedals without taking my but from the saddle.

2. One torque sensor seems to measure the similar values for both left and right pedals while the other does not (the left pedal has lower sensitivity).

3. The one that is worst on 1. is also worst on 2. So, clearly there are torque sensors that are worst than the others.

How to calibrate:
- go to Technical configuration menu to see torque sensor ADC value in real time
- use weights, your own known weight, weight from other members of your family or friends (mainly others with different value), put them on each pedal only (the pedal must be parallel to the ground)
- take note of each weight value and ADC value
- choose 8 points, first one with 0 weight value and last one with your weight
- use a copy of this calc sheet as seen on the next image. Draw a graph and choose the other 6 points near the knee zone as seen on the graph and not on flat zones. You can extrapolate some points if you don´t have the weights, follow the curve on the graph but try to validate with real measurements:

Image

- go to Torque sensor configuration menu and input the data of each point: weight and ADC value

Torque sensor calibration table:
Image

Seeing and validating the pedal side as also the weight measured on the pedals:
Image

How to use:
- everyime you startup the system, the pedals need to be vertical pointing to ground. You can select on Configurations to be left or right pedal to point to ground at startup, based on your preferences. This is needed to the system can know in which pedal are you doing the force with your legs, since the weight is measured differently on each pedal due to the torque sensor.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andrea_104kg » Dec 30 2019 5:10pm

casainho wrote:
Dec 28 2019 5:11pm
Another problem I got today while riding as usual, small trip of 5 kms around home. Suddenly, I could hear the motor working and see on display the motor ERPS speed at max values of 525 although no help assisting to pull the bicycle...

The motor shaft broke!!! Does anyone knows why did this happen?? -- then I exchanged for a new motor and seems to work fine again on a short ride but tomorrow I will do a long trip during the full day with my wife... I hope the motor shaft will not brake again.......

Image
yes, I broke an engine in a similar way :-( Simply, in one of my 2 tsdz2 the engine did not want to disassemble and I beat it lightly with a hammer. I didn't notice anything but once reassembled, after 1km the engine broke exactly as in your photo.
I think it is a fragile alloy that does not allow the slightest decline.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by frenchie » Dec 31 2019 4:27am

AZUR wrote:
Dec 28 2019 5:07pm

I already use my 15S1P 21700 LG 5000mAh for more than 100km, 60% mountain.
That's sounds amazing for a 15 cell battery!!! So how many watts is that? How much do you and the bike weigh?
I'm looking to buy a 750w motor and a 850C display from pswpower......anybody know if I need to buy any extra cables?
Thanks and happy riding, sun is shining, hit the road! :mrgreen:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 31 2019 4:41am

frenchie wrote:
Dec 31 2019 4:27am
AZUR wrote:
Dec 28 2019 5:07pm
I already use my 15S1P 21700 LG 5000mAh for more than 100km, 60% mountain.
That's sounds amazing for a 15 cell battery!!! So how many watts is that? How much do you and the bike weigh?
Go and learn to do the basic math for calculate the cells / package wattage:

15S1P means 15 cells x 1 in series, so it is only 15 cells in series. 3.7 volts each cell, so, 15 * 3.7 = 55.5 volts. As each one is 5000mAh, then, power is 55.5 * 5.000 = 277.5 watts hour.

The weight, well, go search on google the datasheet of that cells and multiply weight of cell by 15 units.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 31 2019 5:25am

Thanks everyone for the feedback, I added this information to the topic Known issues, how to repair and possible causes on the TSDZ2 FAQ: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... motor_axle

I replaced the motor for a new one and I did a trip in family on last Sunday, of 100kms. I also did other short trips yesterday. No issue until now.

I am being thinking about this, as I was very afraid that the issue could occur again on Sunday when I was far from home.

Recently I burned my motor controller in a very ugly way while I was developing the motor firmware. I had to take out the electric motor to see if it was damaged but it was not. Then, the axle broke in the next trip of 5kms. I used this for for long time, the only thing that was changed was the fact that I had removed it and put it back again.

Usually, in my TSDZ2, when I need to remove the motor, I can remove it directly. I have to disassembly the full motor by removing the long and thin screws - just then I can pull the part of the motor that is usually well fixed to the TSDZ2 case. Then, I need to assembly again the motor and screw the thin screws... I assume I did not do it well and the motor body/axle was slightly bent with reference to the TSDZ2 case where the bearing where the end of shaft connects. At least the seems to make sense with the information share by the others.

andrea_104kg wrote:
Dec 30 2019 5:10pm
casainho wrote:
Dec 28 2019 5:11pm
Another problem I got today while riding as usual, small trip of 5 kms around home. Suddenly, I could hear the motor working and see on display the motor ERPS speed at max values of 525 although no help assisting to pull the bicycle...

The motor shaft broke!!! Does anyone knows why did this happen?? -- then I exchanged for a new motor and seems to work fine again on a short ride but tomorrow I will do a long trip during the full day with my wife... I hope the motor shaft will not brake again.......

Image
yes, I broke an engine in a similar way :-( Simply, in one of my 2 tsdz2 the engine did not want to disassemble and I beat it lightly with a hammer. I didn't notice anything but once reassembled, after 1km the engine broke exactly as in your photo.
I think it is a fragile alloy that does not allow the slightest decline.
knutselmaaster wrote:
Dec 28 2019 5:56pm
casainho wrote:
Dec 28 2019 5:11pm
Another problem I got today while riding as usual, small trip of 5 kms around home. Suddenly, I could hear the motor working and see on display the motor ERPS speed at max values of 525 although no help assisting to pull the bicycle...

The motor shaft broke!!! Does anyone knows why did this happen?? -- then I exchanged for a new motor and seems to work fine again on a short ride but tomorrow I will do a long trip during the full day with my wife... I hope the motor shaft will not brake again.......

Image
Motor shaft failure is often caused by bad alignment.
If a bearing is not well placed or at a slight angle, or if the axle isn't perfectly straight, this gives a small fluctuation in tangential force causing fatigue in the metal that leads to breakage of the weakest point.
This can be caused by a badly made motor part but also by bad mounting.
If the motor cover (with the bearing in it) isn't 100% "flat mounted", in exactly 90° angle with the axle, or when the center of the bearing isn't perfectly in the center of the axle for example.
Generally it is noticeable if something like this is happening, the motor vibrates more than it should with the exact frequency of the axle.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Dec 31 2019 6:07am

Axles are made of hardened steel. When steel gets hardened it looses it's flexibility.
In short, it's a trade in between wear resistance and flexibility.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by izeman » Dec 31 2019 7:09am

Hmmm... The more I read the more concerned I become. Now that I have the motor delivered I see what a tiny little motor that really is. Not only compared to one of my DD Crystalyte motor, but also compared to a MAC hubmotor or even a Bafang BBS.
I also now see why this is REALLY only a 500W motor, and nothing more. 750W max for burst. Ok.
But not like the BBSHD that claims 750W and can be run at double the Watts. Or my MAC converted to mid drive that runs 3000W happily (with a modified cooling system of course).
So this motor is really a pedelec motor, something that helps you through head winds and light hills (not mountains). It seems it's not up to mountain biking of any kind. I see broken axles, broken cases, broken gears and burnt windings - even when run under rated conditions.
I bought this because I like tinkering and I LOVE what casinho and others did to the firmware. Looks amazing. And I recommended that motor over a BBSHD to a friend as I thought it's more advanced (which it is because of the torque sensor and advanced software) - I just hope it's up to his expectations and doesn't break after the first ride, and I hope my friend won't be disappointed.
All my fault of course, I should have gone through the several thousand posts and read BEFORE I buy/recommend. Let's keep the fingers crossed and hope that it will all be fine next year - tomorrow! 8) :lol:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hefest » Dec 31 2019 10:25am

From the pinout diagram of tsdz2 it looks like there is a 5V pin. Can this one be used as USB charging power supply? I'm switching from lcd3 with usb to sw102 which doesn't have USB and would like to power my Mobius hd camera without battery.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Dec 31 2019 1:46pm

New MTB bicycles with BB 24mm compatibility with TSDZ2

New year, need for a new bicycle for my son that is growing...

I would like to buy the bicycle from Decathlon 540S model, just like my current bicycle model as also of my wife. The thing is that this new model has a different bottom bracket:

Image

The guys at the shop told me the BB characteristics are:
- with: 68-73mm
- diameter: 24mm
- type: BSC/BSA

Can someone please help to understand if/howTSDZ2 can be installed?? All new good bicycles has this BB, I hope TSDZ2 can be installed...
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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