New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 03 2020 1:40pm

I were at an event of MTB yesterday with a lot of mud... And suddenly after about 20 kms, the chain rolled in the chain wheel and full blocked it!! The chain didn't break... but, the motor started to make a strange noise... luckily even with the noise, the motor could make some assistance and I was able to finish and back to home, I had to pedal much more than what I would like ;-)

Guess what, 2 teeth of the blue gear were crushed... Another new blue gear and I am happy riding again :-)

So, this is why I think is highly recommend to install the brake sensors, as without them, we can also brake and quick block the rear wheel and so the chain wheel:

Image

Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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hetm4n   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by hetm4n » Feb 03 2020 1:48pm

casainho wrote:
Feb 03 2020 1:32pm
Yes it have!! You need to follow the How to install firmware wiki page and then you will see the page you are looking for, for flashing the firmware on SW102 using SWD or using Bluetooth.

I click link zip file stand alone flash program https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... zip%7Cthis
Dont work. Error 404
mongoose teocali comp 2014 TSDZ2 750W 13s3p & 13s7p
dartmoor primal 2017 bafang BBS02b 750W 13s6p

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 03 2020 2:24pm

hetm4n wrote:
Feb 03 2020 1:48pm
casainho wrote:
Feb 03 2020 1:32pm
Yes it have!! You need to follow the How to install firmware wiki page and then you will see the page you are looking for, for flashing the firmware on SW102 using SWD or using Bluetooth.

I click link zip file stand alone flash program https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... zip%7Cthis
Dont work. Error 404
You should clarify and show that you did work otherwise you don't get help.

The link is now correct.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ezrider1199 » Feb 03 2020 2:59pm

I feel some mild "clack clack" type of feedback in the pedaling. There's no clacking when under power, just when the motor is turned off. Could it be coming from the sprag clutch? is this an early indication of failure? i think it started when i tried to put all my weight on one pedal :?

skestans   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Feb 03 2020 3:35pm

Is it still relevant to calibrate the cadence sensor using this method: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... nce-Sensor ?

Using the 850C display, I don't see any mention about it on the wiki page detailing configuration options.

skestans   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Feb 04 2020 1:35am

windburner wrote:
Feb 03 2020 9:42am
ancan wrote:
Feb 03 2020 7:42am
skestans wrote:
Feb 03 2020 7:35am
How do you put all your weight only on one pedal while keeping the crank arms horizontal and not falling?
Lean bike against wall, hold brake and stand on pedal.
Now, imagine trying to do that on a recumbent trike! :confused:

I'm thinking that for the trike situation, pedals vertical would be most appropriate (as the drive force is horizontal), then perhaps use some kind of pull/push scale to apply a known force against the target pedal. :? Reasonable?

OK, given that much effort, what is the expected difference in performance between running uncalibrated versus calibrated?
FWIW, on mine, the actual values were half the default ones. I’ll ride today and see what difference it really makes.

Lubin   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Lubin » Feb 04 2020 5:20am

short report:
With 0.6.4,I has a surprising issue: at startup the system did not start.
The 850C is waiting forever for the motor. I could start the 850C menu, but I could not see any input from the motor (PAS, torque, speed...)
- Reset the 850C to original value did not helped
- Reprogramming the TSDZ2 with the appropriate firmware solved the problem.
Before this happened, I charged the battery and start/stop the system (maybe several times, maybe with hard stop from the battery switch) to check the proper reset of the battery %SOC.
I do not know if the motor was not programmed properly with the Low cost programmer used thus "loosing memory", or if the motor could be placed in a state where the motor controller won’t work even after hard reboots. Is the 850C setting any values within the TSDZ2 eeprom which might explain the behaviour ?

I took the oportunity to updated to 0.6.5. Seems working great. Parameters setup is much quicker with this update.
I noticed that level assist 9 (by default ~0.264) is not ok. Look like values above 0.255 might not be ok. Assist level Granularity between 0 and 0.255 is all ok ; 0.255 is already too high in my case anyway.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Lubin » Feb 04 2020 5:38am

casainho wrote:
Feb 03 2020 1:40pm
Guess what, 2 teeth of the blue gear were crushed... Another new blue gear and I am happy riding again :-)
Any reason why not using a brass gear ? Do you prefere blue gear for lower noise only?

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 04 2020 5:52am

Lubin wrote:
Feb 04 2020 5:38am
casainho wrote:
Feb 03 2020 1:40pm
Guess what, 2 teeth of the blue gear were crushed... Another new blue gear and I am happy riding again :-)
Any reason why not using a brass gear ? Do you prefere blue gear for lower noise only?
For some of the reasons written in the wiki FAQ:
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

LJay   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LJay » Feb 04 2020 6:15am

Hi,
I have a 48V/500W motor (stock firmware) with 48V/13.5 Ah battery installed on my Trek Roscoe 6. I´m very happy with the bike at general, but i have one small issue with the motor.

The issue is that the motor refuses to work with fully charged battery (54,2V), but when I discharge the battery down to 53,8V, it starts working fine then. I am suspecting wrong resistor value in voltage divider before processor ADC input, or wrong constant for the HVC in controller firmware, but it is just my guess.

I searched this thread and found at least one mention of the same issue, but no solution. I there any solution for this problem that I missed (except discharging/not fully charging battery before ride or flashing controller with open source firmware)?

skestans   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Feb 04 2020 7:47am

LJay wrote:
Feb 04 2020 6:15am
Hi,
I have a 48V/500W motor (stock firmware) with 48V/13.5 Ah battery installed on my Trek Roscoe 6. I´m very happy with the bike at general, but i have one small issue with the motor.

The issue is that the motor refuses to work with fully charged battery (54,2V), but when I discharge the battery down to 53,8V, it starts working fine then. I am suspecting wrong resistor value in voltage divider before processor ADC input, or wrong constant for the HVC in controller firmware, but it is just my guess.

I searched this thread and found at least one mention of the same issue, but no solution. I there any solution for this problem that I missed (except discharging/not fully charging battery before ride or flashing controller with open source firmware)?
I believe this is one of the many downsides of the stock firmware. It’s very particular about max voltages.

A few thoughts: cells last twice as long if you charge to 90% rather than 100% and again twice as much if you stop at 80%. Why not do that then? You’ll solve two problems at once. Also, strongly consider flashing the open source firmware. I just did it and it’s night and day: the motor is smoother, quieter, and the assist is much more enjoyable. You can also rest your foot on the pedal with brakes on, ready to go at the light, without the motor engagin until you release the brakes. And this doesn’t require brake sensors. It’s full of little improvements like that, it really adds up.

twiersum   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by twiersum » Feb 04 2020 3:35pm

Does anyone know what the pickup on the controller does that goes through the chaincase?

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windburner   1 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by windburner » Feb 05 2020 2:05am

LJay wrote:
Feb 04 2020 6:15am
Hi,
I have a 48V/500W motor (stock firmware) with 48V/13.5 Ah battery ..., but i have one small issue with the motor.

The issue is that the motor refuses to work with fully charged battery (54,2V), but when I discharge the battery down to 53,8V, it starts working fine then. ...

I searched this thread and found at least one mention of the same issue, but no solution. I there any solution for this problem that I missed (except discharging/not fully charging battery before ride or flashing controller with open source firmware)?
Yes, there is one another option that did not work so well for us, but, it does solve the full charge problem. There is a repository online that contains the 52V factory firmware that can be loaded and a memory location adjusted so that the battery indicator is correct. It does get past the problem of having to partly discharge a fully charged battery. However, the 52V firmware enforces a lower amps limit than the 48V, and you can find yourself running out of assist on steeper hills, if it matters. I don't recall the exact numbers (it is documented in one of my posts on one of these TSDZ2 threads), but my recollection is that the 52V topped out at ~11 amps, while the 48V topped at ~14.5 amps.
I am using the OSF to get past this voltage issue and to use a different display which supplies more 'on the go' info, but in ride performance I feel I've given up more than I gained, especially regarding the onset of pedal assist where the factory FW has been quicker and smoother. The recent v0.6.5/v0.54.0 update has narrowed the gap in some aspects (not pedal assist onset timing), and it has a number of issues to be solved as a work in process (reported separately under the SW102/OSF thread), although, with this recent version, I can compensate by using the walk mode to help launch across intersections when cars are waiting or starting up a hill from a stop. This was NOT a good idea with the walk mode of the prior versions available for the SW102 display.
TerraTrike Rover Tandem - TSDZ2 48V 750W - 13AH Batteries - VLCD6-->SW102/v0.6.8 OSF-->VLCD6 -->XH18

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by btslo » Feb 05 2020 2:57am

You can still change the hex value for amps manually even if you flash the 52V file?

Like here: https://www.eco-ebike.com/blogs/eco-cyc ... romscratch

Or is it hardcoded somehow?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LJay » Feb 05 2020 3:49am

skestans wrote:
Feb 04 2020 7:47am
I believe this is one of the many downsides of the stock firmware. It’s very particular about max voltages.
I think it is combination of two things. Low margin in HVC constant in FW and big tolerance in component (resistor) values. This combination causes this problem on some units, when other units work just fine. I found example of this behavior mentioned here: https://ebikechoices.com/tongsheng-tsdz ... omment-512
skestans wrote:
Feb 04 2020 7:47am
A few thoughts: cells last twice as long if you charge to 90% rather than 100% and again twice as much if you stop at 80%. Why not do that then? You’ll solve two problems at once.
Yes, I also though about this, but I´m from Czech Republic and I´m having kinda hard time to find any suitable charger locally or on ebay. Luna advanced charger https://lunacycle.com/luna-charger-48v- ... e-charger/ seems like a good fit, but I´m not sure if they send things overseas. Even if they will, price of shipping, customs and VAT will drive the final price noticeably higher. I would be very happy for some advice where to buy good adjustable charger (ideally on ebay).
skestans wrote:
Feb 04 2020 7:47am
Also, strongly consider flashing the open source firmware.
I´m using VLCD6 display and I want to keep it, because I don´t need any advanced features (just on/off and select power level) on this bike. Also the OSF seems to be still in the development, from what I read so far and I want to use my bike with minimal level of maintenance possible (just necessary bike maintenance and charging the battery).

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Feb 05 2020 4:15am

LJay wrote:
Feb 05 2020 3:49am
Also the OSF seems to be still in the development, from what I read so far and I want to use my bike with minimal level of maintenance possible (just necessary bike maintenance and charging the battery).
Our OpenSource software is way better than original, that is because it is always improving compared to original firmware.

About maintenance, if you want to have it lower, you should install:
1. Brake sensors to avoid damage of the blue gear
2. Our OpenSource firmware because it protects the blue gear
3. Our OpenSource firmware with the motor temperature sensor that protects the motor from being demagnetized
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LJay » Feb 05 2020 4:19am

windburner wrote:
Feb 05 2020 2:05am
Yes, there is one another option that did not work so well for us, but, it does solve the full charge problem. There is a repository online that contains the 52V factory firmware that can be loaded and a memory location adjusted so that the battery indicator is correct. It does get past the problem of having to partly discharge a fully charged battery. However, the 52V firmware enforces a lower amps limit than the 48V, and you can find yourself running out of assist on steeper hills, if it matters. I don't recall the exact numbers (it is documented in one of my posts on one of these TSDZ2 threads), but my recollection is that the 52V topped out at ~11 amps, while the 48V topped at ~14.5 amps.
Yes I found stock firmwares on eco-ebike web sites, some time ago. I was thinking about changing HVC value in the 48V firmware, but I wasn´t able to find right address for this value in program memory. Uploading 52V firmware also passed through my mind, but I wasn´t sure about all differences (LVC, amps, ...) between 48V and 52V firmware.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by skestans » Feb 05 2020 4:56am

LJay wrote:
Feb 05 2020 3:49am
skestans wrote:
Feb 04 2020 7:47am
I believe this is one of the many downsides of the stock firmware. It’s very particular about max voltages.
I think it is combination of two things. Low margin in HVC constant in FW and big tolerance in component (resistor) values. This combination causes this problem on some units, when other units work just fine. I found example of this behavior mentioned here: https://ebikechoices.com/tongsheng-tsdz ... omment-512
skestans wrote:
Feb 04 2020 7:47am
A few thoughts: cells last twice as long if you charge to 90% rather than 100% and again twice as much if you stop at 80%. Why not do that then? You’ll solve two problems at once.
Yes, I also though about this, but I´m from Czech Republic and I´m having kinda hard time to find any suitable charger locally or on ebay. Luna advanced charger https://lunacycle.com/luna-charger-48v- ... e-charger/ seems like a good fit, but I´m not sure if they send things overseas. Even if they will, price of shipping, customs and VAT will drive the final price noticeably higher. I would be very happy for some advice where to buy good adjustable charger (ideally on ebay).
skestans wrote:
Feb 04 2020 7:47am
Also, strongly consider flashing the open source firmware.
I´m using VLCD6 display and I want to keep it, because I don´t need any advanced features (just on/off and select power level) on this bike. Also the OSF seems to be still in the development, from what I read so far and I want to use my bike with minimal level of maintenance possible (just necessary bike maintenance and charging the battery).
Fair enough. Luna does send overseas but you’d have to check with them regarding shipping costs and VAT. If they’re willing to declare a low enough value, you won’t have to pay taxes. I don’t know what’s the threshold in the EU. In Switzerland, shipments worth less than 62CHF don’t incur taxes. Make sure you know who they ship with, UPS DHL Fedex etc have ridiculously high “brokerage” fees, usually multiples more than the actual tax due.

Em3ev has nice chargers, they send overseas, and they’ll put whatever value you want on the package. I got my 90/100% charger from them. It does have a fan however so it’s not whisper quiet. I charge my batteries in a separate, closed room so that’s fine for me but be aware.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by LJay » Feb 05 2020 4:57am

casainho wrote:
Feb 05 2020 4:15am
Our OpenSource software is way better than original, that is because it is always improving compared to original firmware.
Personally I don't have any bad experiences (except high voltage issue) with the original firmware and it seems to be sufficient for my use, right now. I'm kind of "don't change what is working" type of guy :) I'm also a HW & SW developer so I can appreciate the mount of work that is necessary for developing something like OSF :bigthumb:
casainho wrote:
Feb 05 2020 4:15am
About maintenance, if you want to have it lower, you should install:
1. Brake sensors to avoid damage of the blue gear
2. Our OpenSource firmware because it protects the blue gear
3. Our OpenSource firmware with the motor temperature sensor that protects the motor from being demagnetized


I´m using only 34t chainring on this bike, that should mechanically limit stress of the blue gear and motor quite a lot. I'm also not using full power of this motor (max. "speed" level), so heat load of the motor should not be that bad.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Feb 05 2020 5:28am

LJay wrote:
Feb 05 2020 3:49am
............
I´m using VLCD6 display and I want to keep it, because I don´t need any advanced features (just on/off and select power level) on this bike. ........
It is also possible to use OSF with the default TSDZ2 displays, like VLCD6 too. All important personal settings are setup before flashing and you can use the bike the same way as before, but with a remarkable improvement.
(Latest stable is v0.19C, latest release is v0.20b1A)

So you can try OSF first and keep it if you are satisfied or flash the default FW back again, or replace the display if you want the latest OSF releases.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Feb 05 2020 8:34am

casainho wrote:
Feb 03 2020 1:40pm
Guess what, 2 teeth of the blue gear were crushed... Another new blue gear and I am happy riding again :-)
Having now done 2 blue gears on the original factory software, its interesting that even with the teeth damaged, the motor will still work albietly a bit noisier to get you home. On a very long 30km trip home after damaging a gear, the steel meshing gear had almost recut the plastic gear to a point where the noise had almost disappeared.

Since moving over to V20 ( I quite like the LCD3 in daylight but will move over soon to the SW102 ) the gear issue seems resolved, thanks to the developers such as Casainho and Buba + others.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ri53hu » Feb 05 2020 8:37am

LJay.
Hi, I use a 48v 350w motor and a 52v 17.5Ah battery and a program from EcoCycles.firware :D 52v 19.S

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by matte2k » Feb 05 2020 11:26am

Today after 6500km my Tsdz2 broke.
A light bang and the left crank went totally loose.
Took the crank of, see attached image.
Is there any future for my tsd? Is it possible to restore? I have another tsd with broken sensor I can take parts from...

Until this one is healed, or burried, i have a tsdz2 with foot brake on a second bike. Can I use this on my number 1 bike with only hydralic brakes (Bullitt cargo), or what could happen?
15F57208-2294-4244-B08E-C5ED1C30DF54.jpeg
15F57208-2294-4244-B08E-C5ED1C30DF54.jpeg (303.76 KiB) Viewed 1494 times

RicMcK   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Feb 05 2020 1:02pm

KT-LCD3 upgrade?
I am confused on what I need to upgrade from a KT-LCD3 to 850C. First does anyone know the difference between P850C and the 850C? Can you "see the 850C in the sun? Next do I have to add the SW102 Bluetooth? I can't see my phone in the sun and I don't plan on using it with the bike.

Thanks
Rick Seattle WA

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ezrider1199 » Feb 05 2020 1:13pm

you need to create your own cable to flash the 850c and purchase a voltage step up module to power the 850c while flashing (they're super cheap) OR you can connect the 850c to the battery (easy but less convenient). also you need a USB to serial module (not the stlink) - also cheap.

definitely in sunlight the LCD3 is better but im already use to the 850c and find it very adequate in the sun at 100% brightness. 860 is a bit better but doesnt have FOSS firmware support yet.
RicMcK wrote:
Feb 05 2020 1:02pm
KT-LCD3 upgrade?
I am confused on what I need to upgrade from a KT-LCD3 to 850C. First does anyone know the difference between P850C and the 850C? Can you "see the 850C in the sun? Next do I have to add the SW102 Bluetooth? I can't see my phone in the sun and I don't plan on using it with the bike.

Thanks

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