New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Oct 28 2019 3:11pm

RicMcK wrote:
Oct 27 2019 5:09pm
sysrq wrote:
Oct 27 2019 4:54pm
mctubster wrote:
Oct 09 2019 12:56am
KWTri wrote:
Oct 08 2019 10:01pm
08 2019 10:10pm

1) As regards the TSDZ2 motor itself are there more recent revisions, and if so, what should I look for to get the most recent version?
Motor revision 1 (2017-2018, 2019?) Straight cut main gear / spur gear, Silver spider, Black spider? Main gear plastic cover has 3 screws, Original weather seals
Motor revision 2 (2018? 2019-) Helical cut main gear / spur gear (should be quieter), Black spider, Main gear plastic cover has 4 screws, Better weather seals
KWTri wrote:
Oct 08 2019 10:01pm

My other questions have mostly to do with which display to order to install the firmware on. As stated earlier I need this to be as stable and user friendly as possible for a non technical family member.

2) What is the current best device for installing the firmware? (I am on a bit of a budget, so would like to avoid the 850c as it is more expensive both for the device and for the bootloader box, which together add well over $100 to the build. However if that is the best option, so be it.)
TBH right now it remains the KT LCD3 with STLINK. You can run the latest firmware which is very feature rich and stable (0.20). I don't believe you would need to upgrade again. If you want eventual Strava integration the SW102, but this could be some time.
KWTri wrote:
Oct 08 2019 10:01pm
4) Will the LCD3 continue to be developed, and what are it's limitations?
Memory. Currently no s/w limitations, multipoint torque sensor calibration in the future could be missing and new features not yet thought of. The display has great visibility, and seems pretty weather proof.
KWTri wrote:
Oct 08 2019 10:01pm
5) My other thought was the SW102, as it is smaller and cheaper than the 850c and uses the same STv2 programming cable. Is the Firmware for this device at a stable point?
No not currently. Wireless flashing still in progress, firmware itself a work in progress.
KWTri wrote:
Oct 08 2019 10:01pm
And a few questions about the motor install itself.

6) I'm installing on a road bike, a specialized carbon frame. Are there any particular problems with installing this more onto a road racing style frame?
Yes potentially. Carbon frames will have a lot of material around the bottom bracket. Generally too much to fit the TSDZ2
KWTri wrote:
Oct 08 2019 10:01pm
8) Lastly, considering we do some touring in Colorado, how well does the motor handle sustained climbing for say an hour or more? What settings would be best for this scenario?
You would want to limit the power to 200-300 watts unless you do a cooling mod. TBH that is enough it is more than double what a fit person can output themselves
Mine has a black spider, helical secondary gear and only three plastic cover screws.
For more BB installation clearance remove the motor cover as there are 2 fasteners that get in the way. Once you have it slid in reinstall the cover. I highly recommend doing a cooling mod. The one I did works great. Search this thread for my posts and there is a pdf attached. The mod is easy to do.
RicMcK Seattle.
Finally was able to open the PDF file. How does the heat transfer happen to ambient air with this method. How is the space for the end cap screws made? I guess these are segments from an aluminium tube.

Doohickey   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Oct 28 2019 3:44pm

Quick summary of my experience of installation on my Rockrider 540, in case it's useful to anyone else:
  • Removing the BB was a pain, I only googled how to do it correctly after I'd stripped one the plastic retaining cups. Apparently you're supposed to screw the tool down into the crank shaft with a bolt to stop it from slipping. Now I know that for next time...
  • The motor casing hit the chainstay, so I had to use a spacer ring. (and I had to grind down two of the four spacer things that go between the "hanger" part and the casing, to make it fit correctly on the other side) The chainline also is not great, so I avoid using the lowest gears.
  • Otherwise no issues; the brake and shifter lines fit in their original position between the motor and BB, and it worked great on the stock firmware. (just that it doesn't show battery voltage, watts, etc, and I'm a nerd and wanted that info. The battery indicator on the vlcd5 was also a bit odd, it showed "full" until about 3.7v per cell (13s)..
Installing the open source firmware was also pretty straightforward, opening the sw102 and installing the temp sensor were the most tedious parts. (For the temp sensor, the controller doesn't seem to slide out unless I'd remove the black sealant goo on the wire inlet side, which I didn't want to do, to keep it waterproof, so I just soldered them in place which was finicky. I put a glob of thermal paste on the motor, stuck the lm35 into it, and put a zip tie around the motor and sensor, hopefully it holds.)

I took apart the stock brake levers that came with it and extracted the button things, I plan to 3d print a mount so I can use those with hydraulic brakes instead of buying the magnetic bafang ones.

For the sw102, the wire colors threw me off, apparently they used red for gnd in the sw102 for some bizarre reason.. But it is correct.

Works great so far. I can upload some photos if folks are interested.

Thanks for everyone who made the firmware! :D

RicMcK   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Oct 28 2019 3:47pm

sysrq wrote:
Oct 28 2019 3:11pm
RicMcK wrote:
Oct 27 2019 5:09pm
sysrq wrote:
Oct 27 2019 4:54pm
mctubster wrote:
Oct 09 2019 12:56am

Motor revision 1 (2017-2018, 2019?) Straight cut main gear / spur gear, Silver spider, Black spider? Main gear plastic cover has 3 screws, Original weather seals
Motor revision 2 (2018? 2019-) Helical cut main gear / spur gear (should be quieter), Black spider, Main gear plastic cover has 4 screws, Better weather seals


TBH right now it remains the KT LCD3 with STLINK. You can run the latest firmware which is very feature rich and stable (0.20). I don't believe you would need to upgrade again. If you want eventual Strava integration the SW102, but this could be some time.


Memory. Currently no s/w limitations, multipoint torque sensor calibration in the future could be missing and new features not yet thought of. The display has great visibility, and seems pretty weather proof.


No not currently. Wireless flashing still in progress, firmware itself a work in progress.

Yes potentially. Carbon frames will have a lot of material around the bottom bracket. Generally too much to fit the TSDZ2

You would want to limit the power to 200-300 watts unless you do a cooling mod. TBH that is enough it is more than double what a fit person can output themselves
Mine has a black spider, helical secondary gear and only three plastic cover screws.
For more BB installation clearance remove the motor cover as there are 2 fasteners that get in the way. Once you have it slid in reinstall the cover. I highly recommend doing a cooling mod. The one I did works great. Search this thread for my posts and there is a pdf attached. The mod is easy to do.
RicMcK Seattle.
Finally was able to open the PDF file. How does the heat transfer happen to ambient air with this method. How is the space for the end cap screws made? I guess these are segments from an aluminium tube.
Sorry for the incomplete instructions.

The aluminum shims are from 1/8"& 1/16" thick flat stock. I bent the flat stock around a piece of ABS tubing then cut them to length. 1mm 12W/mK, under the 1/16" strip, and 2mm under the center of the motor. I then covered the motor end cap with 3mm pads (where the wires are). I did several test fittings of the cover, I needed to enlarge the holes a little bit, to get it to fit properly. Once I was sure the cover would seat properly, I gooped up the motor with 20gm of ARTIC MX-4 thermal compound, on the straps and end cap. I also put some on the inside of the cover, then slid the cover on and tightened everything up.

My initial tests show only a few degrees difference between the sensor and the outside of the case @ 35-45C.

It's cold and rainy here in Seattle now so I will not know the full effect until next summer.

PM me if you need more information.
Rick Seattle WA

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Oct 28 2019 3:56pm

Doohickey wrote:
Oct 28 2019 3:44pm
Works great so far. I can upload some photos if folks are interested.
Please share some pictures!!

My and my wife bikes are the Decathlon Rockrider 540S, the full suspension model, size L and M.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

Elinx   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Oct 28 2019 4:34pm

Doohickey wrote:
Oct 28 2019 3:44pm
........... (For the temp sensor, the controller doesn't seem to slide out unless I'd remove the black sealant goo on the wire inlet side, which I didn't want to do, to keep it waterproof, so I just soldered them in place which was finicky. .........

Works great so far. I can upload some photos if folks are interested............
I am interested for more details about soldering the wires. Because you mentioned that the controller can't slide out.
How did you reach the contacts in that case? Had you removed the motor?

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Oct 29 2019 9:07am

hobbyvac wrote:
Jul 06 2018 7:11am
A number of people have commented on what appears to be excessive radial and axial clearance in bearings. Some of the bearing fits in my unit are very loose. That on the non drive side of the spindle is very loose on the shaft and in bearing housing. The drive end of the spindle is a sliding fit in the end of the torque tube (no bearing since both rotate together).There is probably 2 thou total radial movement at both ends of the spindle. Axial end float is taken care of by shim washers. One advantage of all this looseness is that it makes dismantling and reassembly very easy.

I was wondering if they were sealed both sides. I'm thinking I can red locktite the loose bearings into the housing and eliminate at least some of the play? Possibly have the shaft plated and re-ground too. I guess their quality control isn't the best?
Turns out not everyone has a play between the shaft and bearings according to this German forum.
https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... un51iJGYDQ
Factory response earlier in the thread was that there should be some play so that the torque sensor can work properly. The whole things gets even more confusing.
Shimming with soda cans seems a bit too risky since sometimes sooner or later everything gets displaced and gets jammed somewhere else. Roughing up the surface with a punch might not be enough if the size difference is 0.5mm.

Retrorockit   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Retrorockit » Oct 29 2019 12:09pm

Loctite 638 is made for mounting loose bearings and sleeves.

Doohickey   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Oct 29 2019 3:52pm

Elinx wrote:
Oct 28 2019 4:34pm
I am interested for more details about soldering the wires. Because you mentioned that the controller can't slide out. (...)
The controller can slide out, if you're willing to replace the silicone sealant on the wire inlet. I didn't have any...

I just cut the wires and soldered them there. For the ground wire, since it still needs to go to LCD, i sliced off the insulation and soldered the wire from the sensor to the exposed wire strands of the ground wire, to avoid having to cut and resolder it. I have the 8pin (throttle) version, so didn't have to scrape the sealant off the pcb. I did not need to remove the motor, but in hindsight it would have been easier. Explanatory photo:

Image

The lm35 sits nicely in the dimple in front of the screw, I held it in place with a "rubber band" made from inner tube, with some glue underneath that to stop it slipping off. The temperature on the flange part of the motor is probably a few degrees less than inside it, so I'll have to take that into account when setting temperature limits.

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Oct 29 2019 5:01pm

Retrorockit wrote:
Oct 29 2019 12:09pm
Loctite 638 is made for mounting loose bearings and sleeves.
"LOCTITE 638 is designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts, particularly where bond gaps can approach 0.25 mm."

Elinx   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Elinx » Oct 29 2019 5:07pm

Doohickey wrote:
Oct 29 2019 3:52pm
................
I just cut the wires and soldered them there. ........ I have the 8pin (throttle) version, so didn't have to scrape the sealant off the pcb.........
Thanks for this explanation. I have the 6pin version, so I expect that I have to unscrew the controller.
I was planning to combine this addition with the heat dissipation mod from the wiki (by najbyk), so I was hoping to unscrew only one side of the case.

markjiizs   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by markjiizs » Oct 30 2019 5:15am

Hi all,

Have already done few k km on my amazing tsdz2 however today made a battery extension cord so that I can leave it in backpack and messed up polarity :oops: . When I corrected the polarity LCD came up, but shows 650w and there is no power to the motor. Is there any chance that it is an easy repair or should I just order another controller?

Thanks!

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Oct 30 2019 5:57am

markjiizs wrote:
Oct 30 2019 5:15am
Hi all,

Have already done few k km on my amazing tsdz2 however today made a battery extension cord so that I can leave it in backpack and messed up polarity :oops: . When I corrected the polarity LCD came up, but shows 650w and there is no power to the motor. Is there any chance that it is an easy repair or should I just order another controller?

Thanks!
I guess the reverse polarity protection is not implemented due to power loss.
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/q ... ction-idea

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Oct 30 2019 10:04am

hobbyvac wrote:
Jul 06 2018 7:11am
A number of people have commented on what appears to be excessive radial and axial clearance in bearings. Some of the bearing fits in my unit are very loose. That on the non drive side of the spindle is very loose on the shaft and in bearing housing. The drive end of the spindle is a sliding fit in the end of the torque tube (no bearing since both rotate together).There is probably 2 thou total radial movement at both ends of the spindle. Axial end float is taken care of by shim washers. One advantage of all this looseness is that it makes dismantling and reassembly very easy.

I was wondering if they were sealed both sides. I'm thinking I can red locktite the loose bearings into the housing and eliminate at least some of the play? Possibly have the shaft plated and re-ground too. I guess their quality control isn't the best?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4drshnb77h4p0 ... s.mp4?dl=0

valsam   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by valsam » Oct 30 2019 10:44am

Retrorockit wrote:
Oct 19 2019 8:11pm
valsam wrote:
Oct 18 2019 5:14pm
I am interested in buying a 750w TSDZ2 but all i read searching the interenet is that it is very unreliable!
Is this true,is the TSDZ2 so badly unreliable because the last thing i want is to be fixing and buying parts all the time?
As hard i have googled i can not find any where someone writing about how many miles or km he has made without any issues ,is there anyone that has done 10-15.000 kms or miles trouble free with a TSDZ2?
If you want reliability the Bafang BBSHD is as good as it gets. Even at 1500W they're reliable. PAS isn't an option though. At 750-1000W the BBS02 is pretty good also. The TSDZ2 is basically a 350W 20mph motor that can make 750W for a short time. Unless something breaks. Reliability with a BBSHD relates to tearing up driveline parts. A Sturmey Archer 3 speed IGH with a big single speed chain is considered reliable.
Τhank's for your reply my friend but the BBSHD is pretty expensive and way over my budget (budget=450-500$ with battery)!!
I did a little research and contacted some Greek shops that sell the TSDZ2 snd bbs02 and bbshd and they also told me that the most reliable out of the three is the bbshd and the least is the TSDZ2!
They also told me if i want reliability then i should look at gearless hubs or even geared hubs witch are less reliable than gearless but way more reliable than the above 2 mid drives(TSDZ2 AND bbs02) so i ordered a rear hub motor (MXUS 15XFR)with a 48v 13ah battery that has a 22ah integrated controller https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000258 ... 4c4do5My3I and 3 extra planatery gears for just in case for 440$ (the TSDZ2 with a 48v 13ah battery from pspower would have cost me 487$).

jimmyfergus   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jimmyfergus » Oct 30 2019 12:55pm

valsam wrote:
Oct 30 2019 10:44am
Τhank's for your reply my friend but the BBSHD is pretty expensive and way over my budget (budget=450-500$ with battery)!!
I did a little research and contacted some Greek shops that sell the TSDZ2 snd bbs02 and bbshd and they also told me that the most reliable out of the three is the bbshd and the least is the TSDZ2! They also told me if i want reliability then i should look at gearless hubs or even geared hubs witch are less reliable than gearless but way more reliable than the above 2 mid drives(TSDZ2 AND bbs02)
I think that's all quite true, though I think a Bafang mid drive vs a geared hub are fairly equivalent in reliability, but the hub drive means less wear on the drivetrain so is a lower total cost of ownership.

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Oct 30 2019 3:00pm

jimmyfergus wrote:
Oct 30 2019 12:55pm
valsam wrote:
Oct 30 2019 10:44am
Τhank's for your reply my friend but the BBSHD is pretty expensive and way over my budget (budget=450-500$ with battery)!!
I did a little research and contacted some Greek shops that sell the TSDZ2 snd bbs02 and bbshd and they also told me that the most reliable out of the three is the bbshd and the least is the TSDZ2! They also told me if i want reliability then i should look at gearless hubs or even geared hubs witch are less reliable than gearless but way more reliable than the above 2 mid drives(TSDZ2 AND bbs02)
I think that's all quite true, though I think a Bafang mid drive vs a geared hub are fairly equivalent in reliability, but the hub drive means less wear on the drivetrain so is a lower total cost of ownership.
Overheating on low power levels and less than optimal RPM on hills or strong headwinds can be overlooked, they all have different drawbacks depending on a specific environment and expectations.

valsam   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by valsam » Oct 30 2019 4:55pm

sysrq wrote:
Oct 30 2019 3:00pm
jimmyfergus wrote:
Oct 30 2019 12:55pm
valsam wrote:
Oct 30 2019 10:44am
Τhank's for your reply my friend but the BBSHD is pretty expensive and way over my budget (budget=450-500$ with battery)!!
I did a little research and contacted some Greek shops that sell the TSDZ2 snd bbs02 and bbshd and they also told me that the most reliable out of the three is the bbshd and the least is the TSDZ2! They also told me if i want reliability then i should look at gearless hubs or even geared hubs witch are less reliable than gearless but way more reliable than the above 2 mid drives(TSDZ2 AND bbs02)
I think that's all quite true, though I think a Bafang mid drive vs a geared hub are fairly equivalent in reliability, but the hub drive means less wear on the drivetrain so is a lower total cost of ownership.
Overheating on low power levels and less than optimal RPM on hills or strong headwinds can be overlooked, they all have different drawbacks depending on a specific environment and expectations.
I plan on doing 50 km on a daily base, and from watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMQGmuYA6Vg&t=70s and seeing that in only 5000km i would encounter such problems is discouraging at least(meaning that in just 3 months i would have to make a major repair to the TSDZ2) ,i also read that in about that amount of km"s the Bagfangs mid drives controllers need changing and they are pretty expencive ,so the way i see it for commuting with small hills the way to go is hub,so i hope i made the better choice!

sysrq   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by sysrq » Oct 30 2019 6:03pm

valsam wrote:
Oct 30 2019 4:55pm
sysrq wrote:
Oct 30 2019 3:00pm
jimmyfergus wrote:
Oct 30 2019 12:55pm
valsam wrote:
Oct 30 2019 10:44am
Τhank's for your reply my friend but the BBSHD is pretty expensive and way over my budget (budget=450-500$ with battery)!!
I did a little research and contacted some Greek shops that sell the TSDZ2 snd bbs02 and bbshd and they also told me that the most reliable out of the three is the bbshd and the least is the TSDZ2! They also told me if i want reliability then i should look at gearless hubs or even geared hubs witch are less reliable than gearless but way more reliable than the above 2 mid drives(TSDZ2 AND bbs02)
I think that's all quite true, though I think a Bafang mid drive vs a geared hub are fairly equivalent in reliability, but the hub drive means less wear on the drivetrain so is a lower total cost of ownership.
Overheating on low power levels and less than optimal RPM on hills or strong headwinds can be overlooked, they all have different drawbacks depending on a specific environment and expectations.
I plan on doing 50 km on a daily base, and from watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMQGmuYA6Vg&t=70s and seeing that in only 5000km i would encounter such problems is discouraging at least(meaning that in just 3 months i would have to make a major repair to the TSDZ2) ,i also read that in about that amount of km"s the Bagfangs mid drives controllers need changing and they are pretty expencive ,so the way i see it for commuting with small hills the way to go is hub,so i hope i made the better choice!
If safe handling during the ride, weight distribution and probability of broken spokes is not important then hub motor would be cheaper option than entry level mid drive like TSDZ2. High grade ones also have their problems. As most of the time there are either low quality cheap products or overpriced expensive ones and not enough midrange ones. Seems like ebikes are still made and treated like a toys, not a serious form of transportation.

Wapous   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Wapous » Oct 30 2019 10:09pm

I read this forum for some time and I find the topics very interesting.
In the spring of 2019, I bought two systems 48 volts TSDZ2 from Eunorau. A kit for my girlfriend and me. We traveled 5000 km or 10000 km for both. We climbed from 300 to 400 meters. All this without any problem.
There is no throttle or brake sensor. We use this system as for a classic bike by changing gears when the road requires it. There are 5 levels of assistance but we use only level 1.
I believe that normal use will ensure a long life for this wonderful engine.
This is our first kit and I can not compare but I do not see the interest to change.

valsam   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by valsam » Oct 31 2019 12:44am

Wapous wrote:
Oct 30 2019 10:09pm
I read this forum for some time and I find the topics very interesting.
In the spring of 2019, I bought two systems 48 volts TSDZ2 from Eunorau. A kit for my girlfriend and me. We traveled 5000 km or 10000 km for both. We climbed from 300 to 400 meters. All this without any problem.
There is no throttle or brake sensor. We use this system as for a classic bike by changing gears when the road requires it. There are 5 levels of assistance but we use only level 1.
I believe that normal use will ensure a long life for this wonderful engine.
This is our first kit and I can not compare but I do not see the interest to change.
Excuse me but how much do you weigh?
And again i think that 5000 km especially in level 1 assistance is not a criteria for reliability and durability!
I wish that there was a thread with a title something like: "How many troublefree miles have you done with your ebike?" ,in another forum i use to visit about car cng conversions there was a simullar thread "How many troublefree miles have you done with your cng kit?" and there you could clearly see that Japanese cars couldnt handle CNG that well and most if not all sooner or later suffered from VSR(VALSE SEAT REDUCTION!).

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Oct 31 2019 1:37am

valsam wrote:
Oct 30 2019 4:55pm
I plan on doing 50 km on a daily base, and from watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMQGmuYA6Vg&t=70s and seeing that in only 5000km i would encounter such problems is discouraging at least(meaning that in just 3 months i would have to make a major repair to the TSDZ2)
They have being quietly improving TSDZ2, I think that bearing is now improved on latest TSDZ2 versions. I had to replace once that bearing on an old motor but never more I did it. I own 4 ebikes with TSDZ2.

For me, the main advantage of TSDZ2 mid drive motor compared to hub motors that I used in past, it that mid drive can use the bicycle gears and so in the end I get a lot of torque on the hills and that also results in way better battery range, so, light battery and light motor (light bicycle with strong torque for hills).

With my TSDZ2, I drive my full suspension ebike at 50 kms/h max at flats where I live (front 52T chain ring) and I also go to do MTB on mountains and then I switch front gear to use the 32T chain ring and 40T rear gear cassete and I have a lot of torque and ride at minimum of like 6 km/h. I think this 2 extremes are a good example of what we can get with TSDZ2 that we can not with a hub motor, of the same size, weight and using the same battery low energy.

And I weight 105 kgs and at the city, I use this my full suspension ebike with rear panniers and load from shopping.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of OpenSource knowledge and technology for ebikes: Wireless Ebike boar ANT+ and Bluetooth, Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation to help my developments: paypal.me/jorgecasa

mctubster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Oct 31 2019 4:01am

valsam wrote:
Oct 31 2019 12:44am

Excuse me but how much do you weigh?
And again i think that 5000 km especially in level 1 assistance is not a criteria for reliability and durability!
I wish that there was a thread with a title something like: "How many troublefree miles have you done with your ebike?" ,in another forum i use to visit about car cng conversions there was a simullar thread "How many troublefree miles have you done with your cng kit?" and there you could clearly see that Japanese cars couldnt handle CNG that well and most if not all sooner or later suffered from VSR(VALSE SEAT REDUCTION!).
Actually from an engineering.perspective 5000km means X number of revolutions of the motor regardless of how it is used. Remember this is a brushless DC motor, with a small number of rotating parts, unlike ICE engines. Bearings are the main point of wear. There have been a coupe of sprag clutches fail, a chewed up torque sensor at 10000km etc.

The motor is well engineered for the price point, the main issue is overheating when it is stressed beyond its physical capabilities. I was pleasantly surprised by the weather seals and attention to water ingress.

If you run the Open Source Firmware with the temperature sensor mod you remove a large number of the failure modes, stripping the blue gear, demagnitising the magnets, melting the insulation.

There are Bosch units failing here after 5000km of riding. I think you are being unrealistic if you want 10-20000 KMs without servicing of any system that size and weight.

valsam   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 23
Joined: Mar 27 2018 3:03am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by valsam » Oct 31 2019 4:53am

mctubster wrote:
Oct 31 2019 4:01am
valsam wrote:
Oct 31 2019 12:44am

Excuse me but how much do you weigh?
And again i think that 5000 km especially in level 1 assistance is not a criteria for reliability and durability!
I wish that there was a thread with a title something like: "How many troublefree miles have you done with your ebike?" ,in another forum i use to visit about car cng conversions there was a simullar thread "How many troublefree miles have you done with your cng kit?" and there you could clearly see that Japanese cars couldnt handle CNG that well and most if not all sooner or later suffered from VSR(VALSE SEAT REDUCTION!).
Actually from an engineering.perspective 5000km means X number of revolutions of the motor regardless of how it is used. Remember this is a brushless DC motor, with a small number of rotating parts, unlike ICE engines. Bearings are the main point of wear. There have been a coupe of sprag clutches fail, a chewed up torque sensor at 10000km etc.

The motor is well engineered for the price point, the main issue is overheating when it is stressed beyond its physical capabilities. I was pleasantly surprised by the weather seals and attention to water ingress.

If you run the Open Source Firmware with the temperature sensor mod you remove a large number of the failure modes, stripping the blue gear, demagnitising the magnets, melting the insulation.

There are Bosch units failing here after 5000km of riding. I think you are being unrealistic if you want 10-20000 KMs without servicing of any system that size and weight.
Am i realy truly being unrealistic if i want 10-20000 KMs without servicing(read below my concerns about size and weght)?
I have seen posts of people that say that they have done 10-15.000km on a geared hub motor ebike without even servicing then once ,but not read about anyone doing the same with a TSDZ2 or even a bbs02!
So is it more a mid drive thing ?
Please correct me if i am wrong but to me it seems that the New TSDZ2 750w(and even the bafang bbs02)compared to lets say a bafang hub motor like the bafang SWX02 that is only rated at 250-350W the mid drives look significantly smaller in physical size ,they seem to have smaller magnets,less copper mass,one nylon gear instead of 3 (i think with 3 gears there is better stress distribution insted of one!)so how can the handle 750 or 1000w better then the above hub motor,is anything above 250-350w for these motors just too much?
I want to make an ebike that in the end will leave some cash in my pocket from using it insted of my car but if i am to buy a controller ,a blue gear(or white one for the bafangs),a sprag clutche , a torque sensor every 5-7.000 km then i think its not worth it!

mittkonto   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Mar 02 2019 2:31am

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mittkonto » Oct 31 2019 7:07am

Hm, that's something like $0.025 á km and maybe 5h? of fixing, worst case?


----------------
Question:

Is the lights supposed to stay on when the battery is connected, (motor off)?
My backlight is always on, I had the front connected for a while, however the tsdz2 could not sustain it.
By the wholesome Code Gods of Muchgivings!!? A tidy TSDZ2 spliced cable and a nice chunk of HIGO-Z812-B with a tad of temperature mods sprinkled on top, you say?

knutselmaaster   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 310
Joined: Apr 05 2014 6:50am
Location: near Paris, France

Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Oct 31 2019 7:39am

valsam wrote: Am i realy truly being unrealistic if i want 10-20000 KMs without servicing(read below my concerns about size and weght)?
I have seen posts of people that say that they have done 10-15.000km on a geared hub motor ebike without even servicing then once ,but not read about anyone doing the same with a TSDZ2 or even a bbs02!
So is it more a mid drive thing ?
Please correct me if i am wrong but to me it seems that the New TSDZ2 750w(and even the bafang bbs02)compared to lets say a bafang hub motor like the bafang SWX02 that is only rated at 250-350W the mid drives look significantly smaller in physical size ,they seem to have smaller magnets,less copper mass,one nylon gear instead of 3 (i think with 3 gears there is better stress distribution insted of one!)so how can the handle 750 or 1000w better then the above hub motor,is anything above 250-350w for these motors just too much?
I want to make an ebike that in the end will leave some cash in my pocket from using it insted of my car but if i am to buy a controller ,a blue gear(or white one for the bafangs),a sprag clutche , a torque sensor every 5-7.000 km then i think its not worth it!
This motor shouldn't be stressed too much, when used right it is quite durable imo.
It isn't realistic to want to ride 20000km without any servicing.
You say you want to replace your car, a car needs some service ever 10000km.
Compare the price of that with the price of servicing the tsdz2.
A bike that is used on a daily basis needs some attention anyway.
Derailleurs, chains and cables need lubrifiant and need to be replaced (also tyres and brake pads)
Even Shimano recommends servicing internal gear hubs every 5000km or so.
So yes, you're being unrealistic.
Good maintenance prevents things breaking, cost of maintenance is a lot lower than repair.
Replace small wear sensitive parts and lubricate to prevent big expensive parts from wearing out or braking.
This counts for hub motors too by the way.

Durability is at the cost of higher price and more weight, a manufacturer must find the best compromise.
Make it very durable and it will be to expensive and/or too heavy for most people, make it very low quality and the clients will be deceived and sales will be bad too.

Don't forget that forums are a place where people come when they have problems.
Happy users don't post often to tell everything is ok.
So when you read a topic, you will see much posts about problems, even when there are tens of thousands of users without trouble.

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