New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Sep 27 2019 8:45pm

Recently I upgraded my wifi ebike TSDZ2 to the most recent version by changing the main gear and pinion to be helical - the main advantage is to have a more silent TSDZ2:

Image
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

mctubster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Sep 27 2019 11:45pm

[quote=casainho post_id=1500166 time=1569635113 user_id=18879]
Recently I upgraded my wifi ebike TSDZ2 to the most recent version by changing the main gear and pinion to be helical - the main advantage is to have a more silent TSDZ2:

[img]https://i.postimg.cc/J02S8336/2019-09-26-15-06-52-1.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
Interesting. What sort of cost for the parts and is it worth it?

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Sep 28 2019 2:42am

mctubster wrote:
Sep 27 2019 11:45pm
casainho wrote:
Sep 27 2019 8:45pm
Recently I upgraded my wifi ebike TSDZ2 to the most recent version by changing the main gear and pinion to be helical - the main advantage is to have a more silent TSDZ2:

Image
Interesting. What sort of cost for the parts and is it worth it?
Go and see by yourself the prices. You can find on Aliexpress that parts.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

flufferty   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by flufferty » Sep 28 2019 3:05am

mctubster wrote:
Sep 27 2019 11:45pm
Interesting. What sort of cost for the parts and is it worth it?
I've just done the same and YES it's worth it :)
I went from a low growling dog-machine to an electrical sounding bicycle engine.

Bartman   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Bartman » Sep 28 2019 3:27pm

Aquakitty wrote:
Sep 27 2019 2:24pm
sidmodi wrote:
Sep 27 2019 12:44pm
Hello,

I have crossed 1500km with my TSDZ2 + OSF combination on a Trek FX 7.2 Hybrid (2015) and am absolutely loving it. I have, however, throughout the whole time, had one issue that I cannot seem to fix. Whenever I increase the human torque and start pedaling hard, I hear a 'clicking' sound coming from the right side of the bike. It seems like a metallic sound and only happens when I press hard on the right pedal. If I press hard for multiple cycles, the sound is regular and periodic. It almost feels like a creaking sound. I will try to get a video next time but in the meantime, does anyone have any ideas? I have the motor secured on both mounting points - bottom bracket and the additional mounting plate as well; it seems unlikely that the sound is being caused by the entire motor moving and pressing into the frame or something. I know that there is an offset on the stock crank that makes the left and right side asymmetrical. Could that be a possible source of problems? Any help would be appreciated!

Thank you,
Sid
Another idea, possibly bearings in your pedal. Very common for them to click when they blow. If your pedals feel too easy to turn it could be it.

To the corrosion person, that's what happens when you overheat a motor, the "white powder". That would also cause the power loss. Only solution is a new motor (you can buy just the motor which is cheaper).
I had this and was going to change my pedals. Turns out Its the square taper crank interface. Take off the cranks, clean bottom bracket and inside of crank, grease and install with a torque wrench, I did mine at 45nm. Also added some tool releasable thread locking compound. Did this a month ago and all still good.

itchyfoot42   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itchyfoot42 » Sep 28 2019 3:49pm

RTIII wrote: "Watts is volts times amps, so the "15A 48v" system is already 720, and the 18A version crosses the line with 864. Given that a "48v" battery is typically charged to 54.5v or thereabouts, and, at least on my own 13s4p pack, is still typically above 52v (at rest) when 25% to 1/3 depleted, it means you're getting around 795W when pulling peak power out during that first 1/3 of the battery - with the 15A system. ... The only real question is; has anyone the on-board instrumentation to tell us if they ever really get all their rated amps out of their TSDZ2? "

I have an inexpensive power meter on my 48V-15A TDSZ2, older one, with a 11.5A 52V battery. Can't start the motor above 55.6v so charge it to 80% setting on my Luna charger. 80% charge results in battery voltage of 55.27-55-38. Riding a 3 mile loop with rolling hills 4 circuits I got:

Start V End V Volt Max Amp Max Watts Max Avg Speed
55.37 51.96 47.49 14.61 738.5 15
50.4 47.46 42.41 14.66 668.5 14.9
Don't know the accuracy of the meter, but it's a relative indication of what you can get from a full battery vs one that's operating in the lower 1/3 of it's capacity. You can feel the difference when the hill is steep. I was riding in level 2 and using 3 on hills and 4 on the steep parts. The max watts I have ever seen was 756. I've never gotten 15 amps; usually 14.6-14.8 max. I did this ride over a dozen times and these results are typical.

itchyfoot42   100 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by itchyfoot42 » Sep 28 2019 3:56pm

Rats! Format disappeared. Maybe more readable

Start V End V Volt Max Amp Max Watts Max Avg Speed
55.37-- 51.96- 47.49---- 14.61---- 738.5------- 15
50.4--- 47.46- 42.41----- 14.66---- 668.5------- 14.9

cheapcookie   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by cheapcookie » Sep 29 2019 1:25am

Hello is the integrated controller and the internals capable of regen?

cream   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by cream » Sep 29 2019 2:53am

tsdz2ebike.jpg
tsdz2ebike.jpg (469.97 KiB) Viewed 1378 times
About a month ago, I finished my first E-mtb build around TSDZ2 motor. I really like how this little motor feels, even with stock firmware. Installation was quite easy in my case, except the rear shifter cable which was originally routed on the BB so I had to reroute it. Other than that, the kit was a perfect ft.

I spent some time reading this thread and the other one with > 200 pages. I was going to try it anyway but after reading I was quite anctious to try it on my bike.

OSF firmware is the best thing that happened to this electric kit, I just had that smile after initial testing. I wish to say thanks to all the project developers.

Now, I'm using 0.19 firmware with KT-LCD3 and 13.5Ah 48volt Shark case downtube battery. The assisted power mixes better with human power, the motor seems quieter than before and the fact that you can customize so much just by using the display, it's just awesome. Not to mention the readout of important parameters like torque sensor ADC value, batt voltage, etc...embedded diagnostics :) Planing on upgrading the battery to a 52V model for a higher cadence across all levels of charging. I do have some experience fixing electronics so programming didn't take long and the good thing was that I had a Stlink V2 dongle lying around somewhere.



One thing that I noticed since I switched from stock firmware is that the assistance starts a bit slower, most of the time I need to half rotate the crank to get power. Also, when I stop the pedaling, the motor will keep going up to 1 second (depending on the assist level/cadence), in which time I can change gears without pedaling :)) I don't think it's only the innertia of the gearing system inside TSDZ2, it seems like the power keeps going for a short time after I stopped pedaling. Did anybody else encounter this?

I also did temperature sensor mod and some kind of thermal management by means of mounting silicone pads around the motor steel core. It's way better than stock pocket of air, I have around 15C degrees difference on the same road and same ambient temperature.

Did around 700km on mixed terrain. So far, no problems, but I've already ordered replacement parts. I like to have them around, just in case. I will soon have spare plastic gear and a metal one and a CSP 30-P from Stieber (should take more than stock Chinese 110Nm). I notice all replacement sprag clutch I found, don't have the groove for the o-ring like the stock one.


I did notice a quite large radial play of the chainring and the spider, when I did the install. It seems like too much clearance between sprag clutch inner race and the torque sensor shaft and not play in the bearing itself. The play was present since 0km. Maybe it has more play now, don't know for sure. Here's a video:
https://vimeo.com/355198161

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RicMcK » Sep 29 2019 11:28am

cream wrote:
Sep 29 2019 2:53am
tsdz2ebike.jpgAbout a month ago, I finished my first E-mtb build around TSDZ2 motor. I really like how this little motor feels, even with stock firmware. Installation was quite easy in my case, except the rear shifter cable which was originally routed on the BB so I had to reroute it. Other than that, the kit was a perfect ft.

I spent some time reading this thread and the other one with > 200 pages. I was going to try it anyway but after reading I was quite anctious to try it on my bike.

OSF firmware is the best thing that happened to this electric kit, I just had that smile after initial testing. I wish to say thanks to all the project developers.

Now, I'm using 0.19 firmware with KT-LCD3 and 13.5Ah 48volt Shark case downtube battery. The assisted power mixes better with human power, the motor seems quieter than before and the fact that you can customize so much just by using the display, it's just awesome. Not to mention the readout of important parameters like torque sensor ADC value, batt voltage, etc...embedded diagnostics :) Planing on upgrading the battery to a 52V model for a higher cadence across all levels of charging. I do have some experience fixing electronics so programming didn't take long and the good thing was that I had a Stlink V2 dongle lying around somewhere.



One thing that I noticed since I switched from stock firmware is that the assistance starts a bit slower, most of the time I need to half rotate the crank to get power. Also, when I stop the pedaling, the motor will keep going up to 1 second (depending on the assist level/cadence), in which time I can change gears without pedaling :)) I don't think it's only the innertia of the gearing system inside TSDZ2, it seems like the power keeps going for a short time after I stopped pedaling. Did anybody else encounter this?

I also did temperature sensor mod and some kind of thermal management by means of mounting silicone pads around the motor steel core. It's way better than stock pocket of air, I have around 15C degrees difference on the same road and same ambient temperature.

Did around 700km on mixed terrain. So far, no problems, but I've already ordered replacement parts. I like to have them around, just in case. I will soon have spare plastic gear and a metal one and a CSP 30-P from Stieber (should take more than stock Chinese 110Nm). I notice all replacement sprag clutch I found, don't have the groove for the o-ring like the stock one.


I did notice a quite large radial play of the chainring and the spider, when I did the install. It seems like too much clearance between sprag clutch inner race and the torque sensor shaft and not play in the bearing itself. The play was present since 0km. Maybe it has more play now, don't know for sure. Here's a video:
https://vimeo.com/355198161
HI. I had the same issue with the loose spang clutch. I put some loctite 660 on the keyway, key, and shaft. Now It's tight (only the slop in the bearing). Give it a try with any kind of bearing mounting compound.
Rick Seattle WA

cream   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by cream » Sep 29 2019 12:49pm

Thanks, I'll give it a try next time I'll open the motor. But I'll order the compound now. For the play in the bearing, well....I'll replace it with a quality one.

I dismantled my motor today, in order to calibrate the torque sensor. I used a shim/washer installed before installing the gear/sprang clutch part. Didn't have any installed as I saw in some videos. The play is smaller now, but still, I'm not satisfied.

I also found out that I have the spline version of the main reduction gear/pinion and only one bearing on the non driving part of the pedal shaft.

Doohickey   10 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Doohickey » Sep 30 2019 6:04am

Hi all, first post here :-)

I'm strongly considering this motor for my first ebike build. I'm confident with electronics tinkering and firmware flashing from other hobbies, so this one should be no problem. The base bike will be a Rockrider 540 from decathlon. (Photo of bottom bracket here)

Couple questions especially if there's someone with this bike:

* This bike has the shifter cables and hydraulic brake lines under the bottom bracket - is there enough clearance between the motor and the frame that they can stay there ? (Also: does the stock 42t chainring fit without hitting the chainstay, and how's the chainline?)

Some questions about the firmware:

* on the sw102 display, is it possible to get power and speed data out via bluetooth (either in realtime or after)?

* For possible future mods, does the mcu in the sw102 have unused pins that I can solder an additional sensor connection to (and modify the firmware to show it) ? I might want to add a current display for solar panel.

microchip7000   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by microchip7000 » Sep 30 2019 6:34am

you will probably have to remove the screw and file the blue cable guide of the gearbox

knutselmaaster   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by knutselmaaster » Sep 30 2019 6:53am

Doohickey wrote:
Sep 30 2019 6:04am
Hi all, first post here :-)

I'm strongly considering this motor for my first ebike build. I'm confident with electronics tinkering and firmware flashing from other hobbies, so this one should be no problem. The base bike will be a Rockrider 540 from decathlon. (Photo of bottom bracket here)

Couple questions especially if there's someone with this bike:

* This bike has the shifter cables and hydraulic brake lines under the bottom bracket - is there enough clearance between the motor and the frame that they can stay there ? (Also: does the stock 42t chainring fit without hitting the chainstay, and how's the chainline?)

Some questions about the firmware:

* on the sw102 display, is it possible to get power and speed data out via bluetooth (either in realtime or after)?

* For possible future mods, does the mcu in the sw102 have unused pins that I can solder an additional sensor connection to (and modify the firmware to show it) ? I might want to add a current display for solar panel.
Remove the cable guide and install an outer cable.
For a derailleur cable there will normally be enough space between the motor and the frame.
If the hydraulic brake line doesn't pass (sometimes they're just too thick and they get squeezed, so they risk to leak in the long term) then pass it above the bottom bracket.

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Sep 30 2019 8:00am

Doohickey wrote:
Sep 30 2019 6:04am
Hi all, first post here :-)

I'm strongly considering this motor for my first ebike build. I'm confident with electronics tinkering and firmware flashing from other hobbies, so this one should be no problem. The base bike will be a Rockrider 540 from decathlon. (Photo of bottom bracket here)

Couple questions especially if there's someone with this bike:

* This bike has the shifter cables and hydraulic brake lines under the bottom bracket - is there enough clearance between the motor and the frame that they can stay there ? (Also: does the stock 42t chainring fit without hitting the chainstay, and how's the chainline?)

Some questions about the firmware:

* on the sw102 display, is it possible to get power and speed data out via bluetooth (either in realtime or after)?

* For possible future mods, does the mcu in the sw102 have unused pins that I can solder an additional sensor connection to (and modify the firmware to show it) ? I might want to add a current display for solar panel.
I own 2 of the 540S and I posted here notes about how to install: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... Rider_540S

The shifter cable, just remove and install a full cable, like the other user told.

I am now using 52T and 34T at front which is very good on this frame because it can handle 52T big size. The chainline is not very good I think but it is ok for me.

SW102, yes and you will get on Strava app. We don have yet any mobile app but all data on the display can be sent over Bluetooth but more developers to help are needed.

You better go with sensor that communicate over Bluetooth and you have boards on Ebay with the same NRF51 as of SW102, as cheap as 3 euros.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

volcamin   1 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by volcamin » Sep 30 2019 9:36am

Hello everyone! I just purchased my tsdz2 motor from aliexpress. I got the 36v 500w version without brake and thumb throtle, and now i regret not choosing the one with the thumb throttle, is it possible to add my own afterwards?
Thanks very much already

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Sep 30 2019 9:39am

volcamin wrote:
Sep 30 2019 9:36am
Hello everyone! I just purchased my tsdz2 motor from aliexpress. I got the 36v 500w version without brake and thumb throtle, and now i regret not choosing the one with the thumb throttle, is it possible to add my own afterwards?
Thanks very much already
Go and read the wiki, including the FAQ: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... _wiki/wiki
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

CatfishMan   1 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by CatfishMan » Sep 30 2019 4:49pm

casainho wrote:
Sep 27 2019 8:45pm
Recently I upgraded my wifi ebike TSDZ2 to the most recent version by changing the main gear and pinion to be helical - the main advantage is to have a more silent TSDZ2:
If I bought my TSDZ2 recently (within the last 2 months), it should already have the helical gear, is that correct?

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Sep 30 2019 8:55pm

CatfishMan wrote:
Sep 30 2019 4:49pm
casainho wrote:
Sep 27 2019 8:45pm
Recently I upgraded my wifi ebike TSDZ2 to the most recent version by changing the main gear and pinion to be helical - the main advantage is to have a more silent TSDZ2:
If I bought my TSDZ2 recently (within the last 2 months), it should already have the helical gear, is that correct?
I don't know. That motor is at least 1 year old.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

mctubster   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mctubster » Oct 01 2019 3:41am

flufferty wrote:
Sep 28 2019 3:05am
mctubster wrote:
Sep 27 2019 11:45pm
Interesting. What sort of cost for the parts and is it worth it?
I've just done the same and YES it's worth it :)
I went from a low growling dog-machine to an electrical sounding bicycle engine.
Great thanks for confirming. Have ordered the two parts. Time for my first teardown almost 2000kms

thineight   100 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Oct 01 2019 5:34am

In case of sprag clutch replacement I might consider a switching from straight to helical gears: in this case it is necessary to buy both big gear and reduction gear, correct? Is the second one available on pswpower?
Thanks
Last edited by thineight on Oct 01 2019 11:57am, edited 1 time in total.
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by flufferty » Oct 01 2019 9:32am

thineight wrote:
Oct 01 2019 5:34am
In case of spray clutch replacement I might consider a switching from straight to helical gears: in this case it is necessary to buy both big gear and reduction gear, correct? Is the second one available on pswpower?
Thanks
Yes, the little axle/gear mesh against the big sprag clutch gear. Can't find it on pswpower, but it's available at aliexpress, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33011901273.html

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Oct 01 2019 11:28am

The large gear in particular is a real heavy beast, sometime ago I saw I think on the Italian forum pictures of a gear that had been lightened. Anybody have these pictures or any suggestion on lightening the gear ?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by thineight » Oct 01 2019 11:54am

flufferty wrote:
Oct 01 2019 9:32am

Yes, the little axle/gear mesh against the big sprag clutch gear. Can't find it on pswpower, but it's available at aliexpress, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33011901273.html
Thanks, did anybody tested side by side the two gears and confirm that the helicoidal is quieter?
MTB KTM Ultra 29" - City bike DAYTONA 28"

casainho   10 GW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by casainho » Oct 01 2019 12:42pm

thineight wrote:
Oct 01 2019 11:54am
flufferty wrote:
Oct 01 2019 9:32am

Yes, the little axle/gear mesh against the big sprag clutch gear. Can't find it on pswpower, but it's available at aliexpress, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33011901273.html
Thanks, did anybody tested side by side the two gears and confirm that the helicoidal is quieter?
I did, mine ebike always had helical and my wife always had no helical -- I could clearly listen the difference, no helical does more noise and is then less "elegant" when we are riding near the other no ebike MTB riders. Silence is important when we are on the quiet mountains. No one would ever accept to ride near a bicycle with a gas motor (although there are also chinese KITs of gas motors for bicycles), doing high noise and fumes, electric has a very good advantage here :-)

Full suspension bicycle with gas motor KIT:
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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