New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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bjorsa   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bjorsa » Sep 30 2017 4:12am

elem, that sounds great! Speaking of noise, considering that my own motor gets loud at high rpms rather than when it works hard, does your motor sound like a jet plane over 100 rpm?

Writing as a noob on the subject, is it really that complicated to simply swap the controller? Or will that mess everything up and one should therefore rather lift the cut-off ceiling on the existing controller because some sort of weird electrical can´t-combine-this-with-that? Which begs a final question: can one buy just a controller stand alone and mod away?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by elem » Sep 30 2017 10:27am

As i know all tsdz2 make big sound, little more than some Yamaha, no more noise at 100 rpm than when you use "boost mode " .

I thinck it s possible only changing controler, just check the pin of your cable to LCD5 if you want to use throttle as explained by someone here .

I use TSDZ2 only on VTT mode, sometime hardly and changed the blue gear of the 36V for a metal gear and sound are harder even with many grease .

My old TSDZ2 is a preview version and something different, the plastic/nylon gear is white and programmation very different with some bug and loosing torque assist also assist decrease when rpm decrease preserving nylon gear but making climbing hard sometimes, but it accept 48V, hope new 48V version run faster than 36V version because i need to have faster rpm, in vtt mode me often run at more than 90 rpm for climbing .

Sorry if you found some mistake in my english spoking unfortunetly my english isn t very good and often it s hard for me to explain .
RockRider 9.1 TSDZ2 open source firmware .

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by teslanv » Sep 30 2017 10:47am

I managed to overheat/stall my 48V-15A motor. It took a 20% steep logging road to do it, though.

So far, I can't say I have any complaints.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mscoot » Sep 30 2017 12:06pm

bjorsa wrote:I won´t spam the thread with any specifics about my order, but some related things may be of interest to most:

*If 48V equals 4000 rpm then 52 should spin 4333. Good torque tempo would up from about a measly 70 cadence to some 76. However, the engine sticker on the 52V version promises 4500 - good cadence should jump to 79 and top cadence from 90 to 97. Was this measured?
*For all those who feel 500W is more than enough but still would like a higher cadence, can we boost the voltage and then adjust the amps downwards accordingly? Or do the amps somehow help the rpms too? Me, I wouldn´t want to push my luck and would rather prioritize longevity. The thing to avoid seems to be high torque (high amps at slow speeds).
*Eyebyesickle wrote "I wouldn´t worry about the hidden menu". If one adjust the amps by use of the menu on the VLCD5, doesn´t that work as it should?
*Any reason to believe we could get a 60V (@14A or thereabout) version for some real Lance Armstrong cadence? (He rocked 110 cadence btw; insanely high! But a good motor should still give a good push at 100.)
My LBS was experimenting with an 11s battery (nominal voltage 39.6) and I got to try this battery on my 36v 250w TSDZ2 and the usable good cadence increased. I don't know by how much, but it was definately noticeable and felt more right. Noise was a bit lower too.

So on a 36v tsdz2 the max voltage the controller will accept is just slightly lower than 50v. A fully charged 11s is 46.2V. We also tried a fully charged 12s battery (50.4V), but that didn't work. Once the voltage was below 49-50V it would run.

Perhaps this is a simple way to increase the usable cadence?

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New question for TSDZ2 owners

Post by Daytriker » Sep 30 2017 12:18pm

I am placing an order for new 36/350 TSDZ2's & the description reads "with Pedal Brake." That sounds to me like a Coaster Brake normally found on kids bikes. Is this a separate feature or do they all come with a Pedal Brake built in? Is there a way to tell by the Serial Number? Thank you for your answers.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Speady » Sep 30 2017 2:01pm

You can order with or without coaster brake.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Sep 30 2017 2:37pm

Thank you Speady. Is it possible to tell what I have now before doing the install? I have to do 2 for a husband & wife & don't want the kids arguing over who got the better unit. :) Is there a difference in the Serial Numbers or does the motor lock up if trying to turn by hand? I may have an earlier TSDZ2 already but not sure when they improved the reliability. If I have to I can order 2 units but I am considering not carrying these anymore & staying with the hub motors.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Speady » Sep 30 2017 5:13pm

Coaster brake version you can't backpedal.
In terms of reliability there hasn't been too much improvement.
The one-way bearing of the main gear is still a CSK 30 P, rated 110Nm, that equals a person weighing in 65Kg standing at the edge of a 170mm crankarm, usually a pedal. That's made to fail.
There's still just an air gap between motor and housing of the drive unit. That makes for a very poor heat conductivity. So the motor and the shaft heat up very quickly and melt that blue plastic thingee. But there's a replacement made of brass available.
And also there's an air gap between controller and housing of the drive unit, same issue.
This motor works fine as long as you don't push it too hard. No good for heavy riders, no good for heavy loads, no good for people who dislike shifting, no good for long steep hills, no good...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 30 2017 7:32pm

Are you using a 8 , 9 , or 10 speed cassette on the rear ?

What is your front inner chainring tooth count ?

What is your largest cog tooth count on the rear ?




teslanv wrote:I managed to overheat/stall my 48V-15A motor. It took a 20% steep logging road to do it, though.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Sep 30 2017 8:06pm

ScooterMan101 wrote:Are you using a 8 , 9 , or 10 speed cassette on the rear ?

What is your front inner chainring tooth count ?

What is your largest cog tooth count on the rear ?




teslanv wrote:I managed to overheat/stall my 48V-15A motor. It took a 20% steep logging road to do it, though.
I was curious myself... very interesting... sounds like you just pushed it hard for a period of time (guessing decent gearing going up the hill) as opposed to just powered through and blew out the gear like usually would happen!

Nice little area to ride, I can't wait to get back out myself, just getting over a 'mid life INJURY'! haha

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by aja » Oct 01 2017 10:12am

teslanv wrote:I managed to overheat/stall my 48V-15A motor. It took a 20% steep logging road to do it, though.

So far, I can't say I have any complaints.
Hi, thanks for replying on YT. Would you be able to post any of the data that you've found from the CA here, or what you deem most pertinent?
I'd also be interested in a photo of the shunt adapter attached to the wires on your setup as I haven't added a shunt to wiring before; do you remove the outer sheath to leave bare wire where the shunt sits on top, or does the shunt have pins that penetrate the cables?
I've got a TSDZ2 and am interested in how efficient the motor is at different cadences; also interested to see how much battery life is remaining to enable me to better ascertain remaining range (or indeed how many watt hours have been consumed) although not keen to add another screen!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Oct 01 2017 3:53pm

elem wrote:As i know all tsdz2 make big sound
One of mine is as silent as the grave, the other is loud enough to hear over talk radio at full volume with ear-buds on! ... I'm wondering which one is the anomaly! I think most are fairly quiet these days, but have insufficient statistical data to feel comfortable with it one way or another.

I like the output shown in that image of yours above. Since I can't read French; can you tell me if there's an English version and if so, point me to the product? (Or, obviously, if someone else knows of such a thing for the English world, please share!)
teslanv wrote:I managed to overheat/stall my 48V-15A motor. It took a 20% steep logging road to do it, though.
... My computer says that your flash-embeded video is "no longer supported" but that I can still watch it on YouTube, but it doesn't give me the URL for it! :(

Meanwhile, bjorsa brings up cadence. Without a device to measure it, I'd only be wild-assed-guessing, but my perception is that my one unit ("15A") gets my one bike up to over 25 MPH to maybe 27 with assistance, the other ("18A") has trouble getting me over 20. Not sure what's up with that yet as I haven't been able to do side-by-side tests yet due to a leg injury. Both bikes have the same gearing. The slower one is lighter but has 2" tires while the heavier one has 1 1/4" tires.... I have a hard time believing the tires are making that difference!

And, speaking of performance, with my bum knee, I've not been able to add much of anything to whatever the "18A" motor gives (the one with the throttle), but have had to run errands and such, so I'm paying attention. Yesterday I went out on a 7 mile trip over nearly completely flat ground - only two freeway overpasses, one each direction outbound and return - and got about 2.01 miles per Ah. I consider that pretty good considering what I added via pedaling was just about nothing.
Daytriker wrote:Is there a difference [between coaster brake and non-coaster brake units] in the Serial Numbers or does the motor lock up if trying to turn by hand?
Just to clarify what Speady said: On the NON-coaster system, if you pedal backwards, the chain ring (and hence chain) doesn't move backwards with the pedals. On the coaster system, if you pedal backwards, the chainring also moves along backwards. So, it's unlikely they'd bother to track which systems got what, but who knows, it COULD be encoded in the serial number, but so far nobody's talking!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Oct 01 2017 4:20pm

Speady wrote:[...] The one-way bearing of the main gear is still a CSK 30 P, rated 110Nm, that equals a person weighing in 65Kg standing at the edge of a 170mm crankarm, usually a pedal. That's made to fail.
Hmmm... It's a clutch-bearing and it goes inside the gear wheel and its function is to engage the pedals in only one direction. You're saying that bearing's job is ALSO to support the axle and therefore the rider's weight? ...I think you're mistaken about that. You can see the bearing you note in the assembly manual, figure 1-5. There's also one axle bearing visible in several images in section 3.2 that fits into the housing and is intended to stay there through the assembly / disassembly process, including some pretty good shots of it just before 3.3 begins. There's a second axle shaft bearing that's visible mounted on the shaft itself visible in image 3-3-1 just before section 3.3.2 begins. These two bearings are in place in the assembly shown in image 3-3-4 wherein there's also a key that engages the CSK30P...

I think your criticism of "made to fail" needs a little work there!
Speady wrote:There's still just an air gap between motor and housing of the drive unit. That makes for a very poor heat conductivity.
It's also exactly what you want for cooling: maximal surface area. You'd have to argue that it'd be better to conduct the heat to some other part that's better able to radiate the heat away to claim there's something wrong with this design.
Speady wrote:So the motor and the shaft heat up very quickly and melt that blue plastic thingee.
Seems to me it does the opposite. But maybe if you point out more specifically what you're trying to say here, it would help understanding.
Speady wrote:And also there's an air gap between controller and housing of the drive unit, same issue.
And same rebuttal! :D
Speady wrote:This motor works fine as long as you don't push it too hard. No good for heavy riders, no good for heavy loads, no good for people who dislike shifting, no good for long steep hills, no good...
That there are some design "flaws" I have no doubt. We've had reports of broken axles due to a snap-ring groove that makes an infinite stress riser. If I ever have the bad luck to have to replace it, I'll likely just make my own! (Yes, I'm capable of that! ... It's more a question of cost / hassle.) However, I'm pretty sure you're completely free to go out and design one of your own and put Tongsheng out of business! 8)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Oct 01 2017 5:35pm

Thank you for your information RT111- most helpful.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Speady » Oct 01 2017 6:14pm

That's how the main gear looks like when suddenly the crankarms slip trough. :(

Image

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Drum » Oct 01 2017 7:21pm

Hi RTIII, I think that Speady was not saying the one-way bearing was supporting the rider's weight, he was using the rider's weight multiplied by the length of the crank arm to calculate the torque that would be applied to the one-way bearing.
If he is correct that the pedalling torque goes through the one-way bearing, and that it is only rated at 110 Newton-metres of torque, then he is correct: a 65kg person standing on the pedal when the 170mm long crank arm was horizontal would apply a torque of approx 110Nm (65kg x 9.81m/s/s x 0.17metres = 108.4Nm) which would equal the bearing's rated limit.

With my riding pack I weigh 100kg so would be overloading that bearing, if he is right (yes, I do ride standing up and pedalling hard sometimes, and the reports of the square taper shaft breaking are rather worrying to those of us that do ride standing up in rough ground offroad!!).

Having said that, I am still considering buying one of these motors for a lighter duty bike.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Speady » Oct 01 2017 7:35pm

The chainwheel is attached to the main gear, right?
So the main gear may be driven by both, the motor and the rider, right?
The motor turns the small pinion to move the maingear, that's why there are so many teeth on it!
And the rider rotates the crankshaft, it engages at the crappy bearing inside that main gear.
This bearing is stressed to the limit, and when it fails, your e-bike suddenly turns into a push bike.
That's just the way it is.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mrhedstrom » Oct 02 2017 6:40am

I have tried to read this thread but can't find what I'm looking for. I have bought the TSDZ2 VLCD5 36V 250W with y connector for lights at 6V. I haven't received it yet so I can't test or look at the controller myself. My question is, does anyone know the max load for this output?
In previous posts I have read that this is the green wire to the sensor and it's regulated to 6V. Hopefully someone in this forum know the answer or someone has a controller accessible and could follow the green wire and see what component is used for 6V reg.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by bjorsa » Oct 02 2017 11:18am

Speedy probably got it right I´m afraid. Mine broke that way. The pedal no longer connects to the chainring - or it sort of does in a spongy way. I haven´t opened it yet because Tongsheng didn´t give me the go ahead yet but I´ve put my tools on short alert. The motor itself seems fine, I´ve just pushed the pedals too hard.

I´m vague as to how, but this doesn´t stand out as a particularly hard problem to amend. I preferably don´t want to wait for Tongsheng to make the same conclusion via massive warrant returns and improve the design, so if anybody here is sitting on the right kind of cnc machinery you can surely do business with me and more owners too. Replace the shaft with better steel? Get rid of some groove too?
The same goes for 48V controllers in 36V motors, nice double chainring adapters and extra blue cogs (or un-noisy metal replacements): I´ll buy that.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Oct 02 2017 11:47am

Drum wrote:Hi RTIII, I think that Speady was not saying the one-way bearing was supporting the rider's weight, he was using the rider's weight multiplied by the length of the crank arm to calculate the torque that would be applied to the one-way bearing.
If he is correct that the pedalling torque goes through the one-way bearing, and that it is only rated at 110 Newton-metres of torque, then he is correct: a 65kg person standing on the pedal when the 170mm long crank arm was horizontal would apply a torque of approx 110Nm (65kg x 9.81m/s/s x 0.17metres = 108.4Nm) which would equal the bearing's rated limit.

With my riding pack I weigh 100kg so would be overloading that bearing, if he is right (yes, I do ride standing up and pedalling hard sometimes, and the reports of the square taper shaft breaking are rather worrying to those of us that do ride standing up in rough ground offroad!!).

Having said that, I am still considering buying one of these motors for a lighter duty bike.
Thank you for that re-articulation of the situation. From that and Speady's other comments, I agree; yep, it's taking all the torque.

As for making a replacement, the first step would be to find a selection of available bearings of similar type and see if there are any of the same dimensions with higher torque rating. I found a list here, but it shows the next step up, 40% more torque, is 5mm larger on the ID and 10mm larger on the OD, so it's too big for direct replacement:

http://www.wholesale-bearings.com/manuf ... _90750.htm

(Check out the CSK35 in the first table on that page.)

IDK if there are other makers or not - never investigated this type of bearing before. ... PERHAPS, rather than going with larger diameters, one could double-up the bearing - two, side by side - but that would clearly require a bit of engineering and manufacturing!

MAYBE the manufacturer whose page I just cited can MAKE you a better bearing?! :D Lower down on the page it reads:
For non standard bearing, there are many different types with various sizes for our clients and we can also design or develop customized products as per the samples or drawings provided by our clients.

Payment terms

A: 30% T/T in advance .70% against copy of B/L

B.30% T/T in advance .70% against L/C at sight

C.Western union

D.Paypal
So, 30% up front and the balance upon then sending you a copy of the bill of lading, and you can pay via PayPal or Western Union!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by elem » Oct 02 2017 4:12pm



the rocky mountain with the BBS02B ( at the end of the video ) was mine, in the past ;)
This TSDZ2 used is standard one 36V350W

My english is bad but f you need information i can t try to explain what i found about tsdz2 .

I will try to share a video with data from my wattmeter at 48V asp .
RockRider 9.1 TSDZ2 open source firmware .

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by mrhedstrom » Oct 03 2017 4:26am

After reading a little about power regulators in e-bikes I have come to the conclusion that the XL7035E1 is widely used for voltage regulating for controller and other low voltage compomponents, having a input voltage range of 10V-80V and fairly cheap. Hopefully this is the one in the tsdz2 controller for the 6V output. Could anyone conform that this regulator is present near the green wire from speed sensor cable on the controller?
In that case the current should be in the range 0.1A~1A. That's max 6 Watts of lights.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Oct 04 2017 1:52pm

Hello everyone,

I have installed 2 TDSZ2 on 2 different bike types. And in both cases i am noticing that the cranks/pedals position is not symmetrical.

The right side is almost an inch (2 cm) further outside than the left side so that in practice my right leg is further away from the bike than the left one.

Has anyone else made this observation? Is this normal? what am I missing here?

if it was the other way around, i could pull the motor more to the right..but the way it is, the motor sits completely flush and there is no way i can get it more to the left than it already is.

I tried to find info about this issue, but was not able to. So, if you could help me out, that would be great.

By the way: I have a 500W/36V on one bike and a 750W/48V on the other one. Just for general info.

thanks,

Andy.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Speady » Oct 04 2017 2:05pm

Hi Andy,
this is a known problem.
Get yourself a right crankarm from Bafang BSxx, then your pedals are symmetrical again.
You can order from greenbikekit or aliexpress, this stuff is unexpensive.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by andyme » Oct 04 2017 2:11pm

oh no....first of all: many thanks for the fast reply...:-)

i got myself extra long crank arms, just received them today....i can't believe this :shock: i cannot return them anymore and they were expensive and also i want to have longer crank arms...i will have to find a different solution....shoot...

do you know the reason behind this construction? I just cannot understand this...is there a thread where this is being debated?

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