New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by matte2k » Aug 13 2017 10:03am

Anyone had this problem?
The "cable cover" touches the chain when using the biggest cog wheel of the 8sp casette.
If I push the cover tight to the motor by hand I get a clearence of 2-3 mm.
This is on a Bullitt.
IMG_5929.JPG

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 13 2017 10:59am

If take off the chain ring to get better access there, you should be able to reroute the wires through the slot in the cover better...

The slot looks like it has the same clearance where the wires run, but on the inside, it is kind of sloped, so if the fattest wire isn't on one side of the slot where the wires route through, and the skinny wire on the other end, then the 'cable cover' housing will not be able to sit flush.

I feel like I am not wording that very well... but basically, you can get the cable cover housing to screw down tighter if you rearrange the cables and route them through the slot better... that should give you the clearance you need

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 13 2017 11:17am

Daytriker wrote:Here is my experience with this TSDZ2 so far. 60 kms. Ridden on a Recumbent Trike by a 65 year old lady weighing all of 50kgs. Customer was complaining of a rattling sound coming from the motor. Partial Dis-assembly shown here - https://www.facebook.com/Daytriker/post ... 2537793728
Haven't heard back from BMS or the Tongsheng factory yet as to whether I should dismantle further or return the unit. Problem hasn't revealed itself yet but may be internal & I am waiting for their response before I do more than just remove covers.
Please don't use facebook for posting images you also want to share here... I never have a good experience and I know I'm not alone. For example, today it wouldn't let me look at any of your images for more than a few seconds and kept going back to the first set of four. Annoying! Uploading here is painless and the images are guaranteed to be up as long as this site exists. Or, use the "Img" tag to link to images elsewhere so they show up on the pages here as if they were uploaded here - a reasonable second best choice....

Thank You!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Patoruzu » Aug 13 2017 11:19am

If I understood you correctly, I did the same.
The cover has two openings. I rerouted all cables through the second opening (just a gentle pull)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Triketech » Aug 13 2017 11:48am

I've been watching this topic a long time.

Last spring I ordered one from the factory, and made it clear I would be publishing an article about it.
(BTW, it was supposed to have 1M cables but came with short std cables, and built 3 days after the order.)

Summarizing what I've learned:

Tongsheng probably released the product a bit prematurely. Over time changes for cost & reliability while increasing power levels probably introduced a few new parts and software updates.

Early motors tended to make little gear noise, but louder motor noise typical of a Trapezoidal controller. Later motors tend to make loud gear noise, and less motor noise - although that may be masked by the gear noise. I haven't looked at the earlier versions, but on the one that was build for me last April (factory order) the secondary gear set (steel spur gears) have a Pressure Angle (PA) of about 12°, which is way, way wrong for this application; 20-22°. Low PA makes a stout tooth, and a lot of banging and sliding through the contact. Grease is the WRONG lube for this gear angle, needs to be a medium weight gear oil 75W. Teeth were formed on a shaper, and looking at the teeth at about 20X, an experienced eye can see burrs from a dull tool running too deep a cut on each chop.

If they all used this gear design, they would all sound like mine does. Its unlikely Tongsheng makes their own gears. And when production ramps faster than Vendor A can produce components you add Vendor B. And sometimes that's a scramble for Procurement so they compromise quality for Vendor B. All hypothetical, yet the everyday life in the world of manufacturing.

The point being that you get what you pay for. It is a low budget drive that provides the bare essentials for light duty torque assisted boost, and nothing more. Great for some but not for all.

Mid drives are tough little buggers to design and build cheaply and reliably. I think I'll stick with hubmotors on trikes after this.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 13 2017 12:03pm

I think this is one of the simplest mid drive builds out there. Not for the fellas that want a bike that is faster than the brakes are capable of safely stopping...
The replacement parts are far less expensive and the company actually converses with sellers. Bafang likes numbers, period. Testing continues here. I think it may be a great motor for those that are happy with safe speeds on average bikes. Now a 100MM on the way too. MUCH easier to work on, the potting in the controller is clear, you might be able to even see a blown component to troubleshoot. Eventually Bafang will be knocked off. I just wish it would accelerate.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 13 2017 1:07pm

Triketech wrote:I've been watching this topic a long time.

Last spring I ordered one from the factory, and made it clear I would be publishing an article about it.
(BTW, it was supposed to have 1M cables but came with short std cables, and built 3 days after the order.)

Summarizing what I've learned:

Tongsheng probably released the product a bit prematurely. Over time changes for cost & reliability while increasing power levels probably introduced a few new parts and software updates.

Early motors tended to make little gear noise, but louder motor noise typical of a Trapezoidal controller. Later motors tend to make loud gear noise, and less motor noise - although that may be masked by the gear noise. I haven't looked at the earlier versions, but on the one that was build for me last April (factory order) the secondary gear set (steel spur gears) have a Pressure Angle (PA) of about 12°, which is way, way wrong for this application; 20-22°. Low PA makes a stout tooth, and a lot of banging and sliding through the contact. Grease is the WRONG lube for this gear angle, needs to be a medium weight gear oil 75W. Teeth were formed on a shaper, and looking at the teeth at about 20X, an experienced eye can see burrs from a dull tool running too deep a cut on each chop.

If they all used this gear design, they would all sound like mine does.
If they all used the gear design like in my unit, they would all be silent running.
Triketech wrote:Its unlikely Tongsheng makes their own gears. And when production ramps faster than Vendor A can produce components you add Vendor B. And sometimes that's a scramble for Procurement so they compromise quality for Vendor B. All hypothetical, yet the everyday life in the world of manufacturing.
It's virtually certain that they'd use a gear vendor for volume production. A far more likely scenario is that they started with gears made in house or small workshop in low volume and when the volume of production increased, they farmed it out to a vendor who makes the gears much more professionally in larger numbers, which is why the younger units are widely reported as being quiet while that can't be said for earlier units. ... A reasonable estimate based on a few known data points is that they sorted all this out in May of this year. In my view, you clearly got an older unit, before the change, and now think that applies to all their units, even current production.
Triketech wrote:It is a low budget drive that provides the bare essentials for light duty torque assisted boost, and nothing more. Great for some but not for all.
It's readily apparent to me you're not their target customer; you want a moped. And, your "bare essentials" is to me a superior sophistication. Apparently great for some, but not for all.
Triketech wrote:I think I'll stick with hubmotors on trikes after this.


Hub motors suck at hill climbing and are not particularly efficient except at one speed. Mid-drives are great at hill climbing and the TSDZ2 has done truly wonderfully for me at that job. ... I'm guessing here - you ordered your unit in English; Maybe someday you'll forgive Tongsheng for their lack of fluency in English resulting in your short cables as perhaps you could have placed your order in Chinese.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Aug 13 2017 1:50pm

Actually Hub Motors can be more efficient than Crank Drives, it all depends on the design & efficiency. Direct Drive hub motors do not produce enough torque on their own for efficient hill climbing & that's why we have gears. Whether those gears are placed inside or outside the motor makes very little difference but the amount of losses to get the power to the ground in the final drive is where the advantage shows up. Having the ability to free wheel & coast without any cogging of the motor is a real advantage if you are staying within sane speed limits but high RPM motors still require big windings, magnets & mass which just doesn't make sense to go 20 mph/30kmh.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 13 2017 2:39pm

Daytriker wrote:Actually Hub Motors can be more efficient than Crank Drives, it all depends on the design & efficiency. Direct Drive hub motors do not produce enough torque on their own for efficient hill climbing & that's why we have gears. Whether those gears are placed inside or outside the motor makes very little difference but the amount of losses to get the power to the ground in the final drive is where the advantage shows up. Having the ability to free wheel & coast without any cogging of the motor is a real advantage if you are staying within sane speed limits but high RPM motors still require big windings, magnets & mass which just doesn't make sense to go 20 mph/30kmh.
Of course, any given implementation could be great or awful, so it's likely that some hub motor somewhere is more efficient than some mid-drive somewhere else. However, hub motors have some inherent design characteristics that aren't particularly helpful for efficiency. All electric motors, especially considering the types used on bicycles, have a particular RPM at which they are most efficient and are characteristically significantly less efficient at other rotational speeds within their performance envelope. ... A geared hub motor, so far as I am aware, can only have one gear, so the ratio provided is going to help, but not resolve the problem of a dynamically changing load demand throughout the performance envelope, in sharp contrast to a mid-drive. ...It's my understanding - with limited personal experience - that all hub motors have significant drag when unpowered.

Another problem is that hubs motors are all unsprung weight, with all the attendant issues that adding unsprung weight brings with it.

IMHO, hub motors are best suited to applications that don't involve much in the way of hills.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Triketech » Aug 13 2017 4:17pm

RTIII wrote:[
It's readily apparent to me you're not their target customer; you want a moped. And, your "bare essentials" is to me a superior sophistication. Apparently great for some, but not for all.

Hub motors suck at hill climbing and are not particularly efficient except at one speed. Mid-drives are great at hill climbing and the TSDZ2 has done truly wonderfully for me at that job. ... I'm guessing here - you ordered your unit in English; Maybe someday you'll forgive Tongsheng for their lack of fluency in English resulting in your short cables as perhaps you could have placed your order in Chinese.
This drive certainly wouldn't be for me, and was purchased for testing only. But with the right corrections it would be strong contender among the trike market. Its motor #11 in the series I've tested over the last few years. We demoed the drive at a couple national trike meets earlier this summer and in every case the sound level was an absolute deal killer. Trikes may be a small market, but as many are older folks, some (like me) with physical handicaps.

Not too concerned over the cable length issue, I just made some extensions. It wasn't a language barrier issue, I think they just wanted to fufill the order as quickly as possible. I'm guessing one of their vendors is wondering why they got long cables.

I have a handful of trikes. My favorite drive is the MAC 10T-Phaserunner, but it comes at a premium price too. Despite having 80lbs more weight to lug the MAC outclimbs my wife's trike which has the TSDZ2. On the same rides we typically get within 20% Watt-Hrs/Mile, maybe because I ride more aggressively, but not dangerously.

http://www.triketech.com/Drivetrain/Pow ... AC-V2.html

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Aug 13 2017 5:21pm

I suggest you try spinning a brushless, geared hub motor & compare it to spinning a direct drive motor of the same approximate size & weight. It is like night & day. Try coasting with a direct drive motor & that's where you feel the drag. I don't have enough experience with the crank drives to claim that they are better or worse than hub motors but my limited exposure so far tells me that given a choice small, light weight brushless, geared hub motors offer a much more satisfying riding experience.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dirkdiggler » Aug 14 2017 12:12am

Night and day weight difference between hub and mid drive. I have both setup and mid drives are the best for climbing and single track. You take a big rock hit on the 40lb hub motor and it kills your ride. To each his own though. Ride what you like.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Aug 14 2017 1:49am

40 lbs? just for the motor? I install 350 watt/36 volt hub motors with a 12 amp/hr. battery, separate controller and the whole system weighs 20 lbs. including the battery.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Aug 14 2017 5:32am

Hi, being a bit lazy here but way back in the thread one of the posters had said that he had had to reshim the drive side shaft as he had a bit too much play in it. Mine is the same and as I want to regrease it, I may as well deal with the problem ( almost like a conical bearing hasn't enough tension on it ). Looked back through the thread, but I can't seem to find the solution. Anybody remember where it was ?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 14 2017 9:48am

Waynemarlow wrote:Hi, being a bit lazy here but way back in the thread one of the posters had said that he had had to reshim the drive side shaft as he had a bit too much play in it. Mine is the same and as I want to regrease it, I may as well deal with the problem ( almost like a conical bearing hasn't enough tension on it ). Looked back through the thread, but I can't seem to find the solution. Anybody remember where it was ?
...Page 6 or thereabouts... It was a LONG time ago. I think the poster included images, making it easier to find.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 14 2017 1:45pm

Daytriker wrote:I suggest you try spinning a brushless, geared hub motor & compare it to spinning a direct drive motor of the same approximate size & weight. It is like night & day. Try coasting with a direct drive motor & that's where you feel the drag. I don't have enough experience with the crank drives to claim that they are better or worse than hub motors but my limited exposure so far tells me that given a choice small, light weight brushless, geared hub motors offer a much more satisfying riding experience.
Low drag with the BBS01, maybe a bit more with a BBS02. I never pedal my DD without lowest assist, but when I had tryed it w/o power it was quite a bit more drag.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 14 2017 1:48pm

tomjasz wrote:
Daytriker wrote:I suggest you try spinning a brushless, geared hub motor & compare it to spinning a direct drive motor of the same approximate size & weight. It is like night & day. Try coasting with a direct drive motor & that's where you feel the drag. I don't have enough experience with the crank drives to claim that they are better or worse than hub motors but my limited exposure so far tells me that given a choice small, light weight brushless, geared hub motors offer a much more satisfying riding experience.
Low drag with the BBS01, maybe a bit more with a BBS02. I never pedal my DD without lowest assist, but when I had tryed it w/o power it was quite a bit more drag.
Every time I'm out riding, I pedal my TSDZ2 equipped bike without power. Every Single Time. It has zero noticeable drag - it's at least as good as a quality rear cassette freehub, and silent, rather like my "Silent Clutch" Shimano freehub - no clicking.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 14 2017 2:02pm

RTIII wrote: Every time I'm out riding, I pedal my TSDZ2 equipped bike without power. Every Single Time. It has zero noticeable drag - it's at least as good as a quality rear cassette freehub, and silent, rather like my "Silent Clutch" Shimano freehub - no clicking.
I need to have a day where I feel good enough, and get mine finished.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dom48 » Aug 15 2017 1:14am

Hello first post here and just wanted to share my conversion. Thanks to all the folks who contributed to this thread, the info has been invaluable!

I purchased the 48V 18A motor and 13.5 aH battery from eyebyesickle. His customer service is first class. This is my first e-bike and the goal was to have a good fast bike for my 28 mile round trip commute. The donor bike is a 2015 Giant Revolt. The rack is an Axiom unit and the lights are Amazon Cree XML LEDs I had laying around. Gearing is stock 48T 110bcd front ring from the Revolt and rear is 11-32T 10 speed. Tires are Schwalb Marathon Supreme in 700 x 40. I had to grind off the front derailleur cable stop to clear the rear motor mount screw but otherwise the motor mounted with zero issues. I put on platform pedals for testing but will install Shimano SPDs for the commute. Only did some test riding today but loving it so far. The TSDZ2 is very quiet and the assist is butter smooth.

The only issue is that the odometer reading is way off, seems to be recording at around 4-5 times the actual distance.
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Aug 15 2017 9:03am

dom48 wrote:Hello first post here and just wanted to share my conversion. Thanks to all the folks who contributed to this thread, the info has been invaluable!

I purchased the 48V 18A motor and 13.5 aH battery from eyebyesickle. His customer service is first class. This is my first e-bike and the goal was to have a good fast bike for my 28 mile round trip commute. The donor bike is a 2015 Giant Revolt. The rack is an Axiom unit and the lights are Amazon Cree XML LEDs I had laying around. Gearing is stock 48T 110bcd front ring from the Revolt and rear is 11-32T 10 speed. Tires are Schwalb Marathon Supreme in 700 x 40. I had to grind off the front derailleur cable stop to clear the rear motor mount screw but otherwise the motor mounted with zero issues. I put on platform pedals for testing but will install Shimano SPDs for the commute. Only did some test riding today but loving it so far. The TSDZ2 is very quiet and the assist is butter smooth.

The only issue is that the odometer reading is way off, seems to be recording at around 4-5 times the actual distance.
Hi Dom48,

sharp looking bike.

About that Odometer; have you discovered yet how to get into the setup screen? If the speed is right but the odometer is reading around 100% wrong it's likely displaying in KPH, not MPH. Or, maybe you have the number of magnets configured wrong - should be 1 for most of us! Etc... Full directions are found in a PDF, links to have been posted in this thread many times. Look for eye's google-drive link, for example; it's in there as well as other places!

Best,
RTIII

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 15 2017 9:08am

dom48 wrote:Hello first post here and just wanted to share my conversion. Thanks to all the folks who contributed to this thread, the info has been invaluable!

I purchased the 48V 18A motor and 13.5 aH battery from eyebyesickle. His customer service is first class. This is my first e-bike and the goal was to have a good fast bike for my 28 mile round trip commute. The donor bike is a 2015 Giant Revolt. The rack is an Axiom unit and the lights are Amazon Cree XML LEDs I had laying around. Gearing is stock 48T 110bcd front ring from the Revolt and rear is 11-32T 10 speed. Tires are Schwalb Marathon Supreme in 700 x 40. I had to grind off the front derailleur cable stop to clear the rear motor mount screw but otherwise the motor mounted with zero issues. I put on platform pedals for testing but will install Shimano SPDs for the commute. Only did some test riding today but loving it so far. The TSDZ2 is very quiet and the assist is butter smooth.

The only issue is that the odometer reading is way off, seems to be recording at around 4-5 times the actual distance.
Looks good =)

As for the distance display being off, let's see if we can fix that.

- On the VLDC-5, once powered up on your bike, hold the 'I/O' power button and 'i'nfo button down, together, for three seconds and get into the hidden menu

- Obviously ensure that it is set to MPH, and you are not pulling an eyebyesickle =P

- Check, and ensure your 'Wheel Diameter' is set appropriately to your wheel size.

- If the previous steps do not get it straightened out, then perhaps the issue is the 'magnetic steel number selection' setting. This value is the amount of pulses sent to measure the speed per a rotation of the wheel. Default is 1. Now, with these new speed sensors with the Y split, the sensor is a little different and receiving area larger, and I am thinking it is pulsing more than 1 per rotation perhaps.

Let me know how it goes, thanks

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Patoruzu » Aug 15 2017 9:27am

I would presume that a larger sensor will detect the signal better, rather than twice.
I bet it is only the wheel size and the km/h Mi/h setting.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Aug 15 2017 9:43am

Yes, I doubt it as well, but attempting to be thorough, I was just theorizing perhaps they put two receivers in the new model sensor, for some sort of accuracy gain. Hadn't double-checked the default setting for the sensor in the new models we get. But yeah, likely not

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by dom48 » Aug 15 2017 10:53am

Yes, the settings for mph and cc were set correctly to mph and 1. Here are the remainder of the settings:

D1=700
6km/h = ON (I don't know what this setting is for)
SD = ----
25mph limit = OFF
Amps = 18

I am using the power cutoff brake levers. I dont think that would affect it? The magnet is positioned approximately 1.5mm from the sensor. Average speed is also incorrect, it displayed 90mph. :lol:
Last edited by dom48 on Aug 15 2017 11:02am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Aug 15 2017 11:00am

What are the 18A controllers putting out for top speed? 15A?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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