New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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Jammied   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Jammied » Jul 20 2017 11:01pm

Thanks for the help. I used the gear calculator and to me it seems like the 14-34 and 42 chain ring might be good. The 42 chain ring and a 34 low gear would still be just a little lower than what I have now and the rest would be a more speed then I have now. http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=DERS ... 2.6&UN=MPH and a 46 chain ring and a 34 rear would be almost the same low gear with about 5mph more speed

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Jammied » Jul 20 2017 11:12pm

Well for some reason my link didn't copy and paste correctly

matte2k   10 mW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by matte2k » Jul 21 2017 9:13am

mscoot wrote:
mscoot wrote:
matte2k wrote: I've received my motor and the transformation of my Bullitt cargo bike has started.
First the motor bottom bracket part was too tight. Hade du sand a hole lot in my bb hole to get inte to fit.
Then when I finally got it in a bit. It seems that I need to trim it on a whole lot of more places than you had. At least 2 more.
Look att the attached images. At least 1mm (Probably 2 if I want to place some rubber in between the motor and frame). So know is the question if I dare to take all of the motor housing or if I should grind some in the aluminum frame as well???
Any ideas?
IMG_5713.jpg
IMG_5714.jpg
All right, I found some of the photos I took when I installed this last year. These pictures are in no particular order.

The motor installed. Notice I have grounded off a part of the threads for the front mounting screw to clear that weld on the frame:
14375354_10154245398431077_419355446_o.jpg
To mount it, the left cover first needs to come off:
14423941_10154245397466077_656898857_o.jpg

The gearing cable (normally under the BB, now rests on top of the BB. Motor isn't fully inserted here:
14375360_10154245397521077_558709198_o.jpg

The left hand motor casing. This is what I needed to take away to make it fit:
14359617_10154245397636077_2117285968_o.jpg
On the right side of the motor casing I needed to take away this bit. (and then a tiny amount more right there in the middle)
14393378_10154245397801077_168811326_o.jpg
Another picture of it fitted:
14393379_10154245977466077_835738353_o.jpg

Thanks for the pics. Had to make similiar mods on the motor housing. Will put up aome pictures later.
New question.
When mounting the black plate on the non drive side, the washer isnt enough to fill the gap. There is at least 2mm left. How have u guys fixed that. Let it be or put another 2mm washer there? Cant attach a picture from my phone due to filesize but maybee u get it?

RTIII   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Jul 21 2017 11:06am

matte2k wrote: When mounting the black plate on the non drive side, the washer isnt enough to fill the gap. There is at least 2mm left. How have u guys fixed that. Let it be or put another 2mm washer there? Cant attach a picture from my phone due to filesize but maybee u get it?
I simply added some washers as shims to take up the slack, mostly to just keep the parts all together; I don't think that at least in my case that bracket does much, and it probably doesn't matter at all if those bolts aren't tight, except that they'll come out and you'll lose them.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Jul 21 2017 11:43am

mscoot wrote: What about knocking a dent in the frame itself [to gain clearance]? Is it the frames' welds that are too thick or is it the tubing? If it's the tubing perhaps a small dent would do?

You know what? To me it looks like you could get away with two small, well placed dents on the underside of each chainstay?
Yes, brilliant solution I've used myself on non-bicycle applications, so I'm annoyed with myself I didn't think of it! :shock: ... That said, here's a tip on how I've done this before that can help here:

1) location: Mark each spot where a dent is needed with ink from a felt-tip pen - writes best on a painted frame, and will wipe away afterward, so don't touch it until you don't need it any more. Put your mark on the side, 90 degrees around the tube from where you want the dent, in the center of the spot you want dented.

2) "dolly" selection - diameter: Your dent's shape should be set by an intermediate tool usually called a dolly. For this, select a steel bolt of sufficient diameter as to represent the radius of curve you want for your dent, and don't go too small! A large radius dent is safer for the part being dented to not fail, so go bigger rather than smaller, but not so big as you have to move a lot more metal - find a balance point. For example, if M8 is the minimum, maybe go M10, and consider whether M12 would be too big or not.

3) hammer selection - mass: I've used many different kinds of hammers to shape metal and in a case like this you want the heaviest one on hand that you can swing with some accuracy. The mass means you don't have to swing fast and hard and so, swinging slower and not so hard makes it easier to get the blows right where you want them, but if it's too heavy you have that problem because it's too big...

4) positioning the dolly: You can free-hand the positioning as you go, but sometimes I will use rubber bands or tape to position the dolly, you just have to check that it stays in position as you do your work. In any event, you want it exactly perpendicular to the place you need "raised" to gain clearance, and, of course, exactly at the spot.

5) applying force: You have a bit of a dilemma in that metals work-harden as you re-shape them - they literally become stiffer - and more brittle and that works against you, and on the other hand making your dent all at one time means you'd better get it in the right spot and right depth in one blow. So, I go for the middle ground. Since you don't know just how easily the tube will give way, start too light and add force until you see it start to yield, then ramp up the blows in force some and make sure every blow is putting force exactly where the previous was done - "micro-denting" will work-harden the piece considerably and you really don't want that, so even if you don't start in the exactly perfect position, it might be better to keep going with it slightly off than to try and correct it. The one exception is the rotational position, which you can alter with no ill effects - it's just geometry!

Good luck.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Jul 21 2017 11:51am

Patoruzu wrote:I updated your spreadsheet once more. Now everything changeable is in pull down menus.
Thanks again! :D We, as a group, ARE amazing, aren't we?! 8)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Jul 21 2017 12:04pm

MPM wrote: Hey guys [Patoruzo & RTIII], thank you for your work on the gearing Excel/OpenOffice sheet! I'm not trying to stop you. Also, just to clarify, I have no personal interest in that on-line tool. I just think that this is another useful tool to help people with gearing, and shouldn't be discarded too easily.
I didn't suggest discarding it, and I don't think Patoruzo advocates that either! Rather, it was just missing my circumstance. ... And, since you asked, my setup is a 7 gear Shimano 11-28T cassette with 42T and 52T chainrings on a bike with 27" wheels. And 27" wheels weren't on the list - and yes, I had to make my own rear wheel to change from freewheel to freehub - and I didn't find my particular cassette there, either. Better to let us pick each item from just raw numbers rather than code it all in manufacturer's part numbers and such. For example, it could let us pick the number of rear gears and then set the individual tooth counts for each, do the same for the front, and specify tire diameter in inches OR metric, and, including its already great features, especially visualization, and then it would be, in my view, truly awesome! :lol:

However, THIS thread isn't the best place for it - its' already overloaded with TSDZ2 talk and a LOT of extra topics get touched on which we should probably try and take to other threads when we can! It's grown from zero to 16 pages from April 20, 2017 to the end of May, 2017 (over a year), and from 16 to 31 pages - roughly double! - in about 6 weeks! WOW! So, we should probably take heavy gear spreadsheet discussion off of this page. We could use this one that's already on the topic:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1301788

I just edited its heading to reflect "calculator" so that's on-topic there now! :wink: Perhaps someone can post about that other calculator - and any others - over on that thread?! :D

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by MPM » Jul 21 2017 12:45pm

Jammied wrote:Well for some reason my link didn't copy and paste correctly
Hi Jammied, yes that happened to me too. It seems that the address in the browser reflects the setup someone starts with and doesn't update even if you make changes. But the link displayed at the bottom of the calculator DOES update, so you can copy that.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Jammied » Jul 21 2017 1:44pm

Oh ok I didn't try that.

I wasn't trying to go off topic just trying to figure out what gearing would work well with the TSDZ2 torque sensor and my needs. Or if it would at all be a upgrade from the 350w geared hub in terms off assist ability with my heavily loaded trike or if another 850w DD would suit my needs better

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Patoruzu » Jul 21 2017 2:05pm

Jammied wrote:Oh ok I didn't try that.

I wasn't trying to go off topic just trying to figure out what gearing would work well with the TSDZ2 torque sensor and my needs. Or if it would at all be a upgrade from the 350w geared hub in terms off assist ability with my heavily loaded trike or if another 850w DD would suit my needs better
Before I found this forum/thread while researching about Mid-Drives and TSDZ2/3 specifically, I came upon another forum where a user had installed it on a trike. Have you seen it? If not, here you are:
https://www.bentrideronline.com/message ... p?t=127860

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Jammied » Jul 21 2017 4:00pm

Thank's for the link. That is a good read. Although my trikes are of a different build it was good to see how the recumbent crowd reacted to the TSDZ2.

I would like the 48v set up but i'm thinking of leaving the front hub motor on for emergencies so a 36v would be more practical. Also if sharing the battery both drives could work together on take off's and or steep grades if needed. Just not sure if the TSDZ2 will be fine by itself. But one on my Schwinn with the take off help of the 850w DD would probably work well also.

I will have to give a TSDZ2 a chance and see. The dillenger geared hub was actually more money than what the TSDZ2 is and is disappointment although would probably be fine on a 2 wheeler commuter. The geared hub I have to ride around in 3rd or 4th if there is a incline or any kind of head wind

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Patoruzu » Jul 22 2017 3:48pm

@eyebyesickle

You have been suspiciously silent lately :)

You said you had a video about Firmware programming?
Do you have access to the following software too?
http://www.tsbicycle.net/imageRepositor ... 530125.jpg
It looks like a front end to edit the most common setting. The other software just looks like a binary editor.
Any idea/info on how/where to enable the watt/volt meters?

Back to the "adding a 52T to my 42T" I realize it only adds me two new ratios on the fast side of the scale.
Not a big change for the added complexity. So today I removed the front XT derailleur and shifter, and will upgrade from XT 9 to 10 or 11 speeds. A 11-40 cassette will give me back the lower ratios I had. 11-42, 11-46 or 10-44 will even give me more flexibility than what I had before, with the simplicity of 1x.

Unfortunately Shimano xt T8000 (which would be the most natural upgrade) only supports 11-36 :/, or maybe a goatlink could help here.

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 22 2017 4:30pm

Patoruzu wrote:@eyebyesickle

You have been suspiciously silent lately :)

You said you had a video about Firmware programming?
Do you have access to the following software too?
http://www.tsbicycle.net/imageRepositor ... 530125.jpg
It looks like a front end to edit the most common setting. The other software just looks like a binary editor.
Any idea/info on how/where to enable the watt/volt meters?

Back to the "adding a 52T to my 42T" I realize it only adds me two new ratios on the fast side of the scale.
Not a big change for the added complexity. So today I removed the front XT derailleur and shifter, and will upgrade from XT 9 to 10 or 11 speeds. A 11-40 cassette will give me back the lower ratios I had. 11-42, 11-46 or 10-44 will even give me more flexibility than what I had before, with the simplicity of 1x.

Unfortunately Shimano xt T8000 (which would be the most natural upgrade) only supports 11-36 :/, or maybe a goatlink could help here.
Yeah, swamped... just merged with autoebike for some small equipment (TSDZ series, BBS series, + hard pack batteries, cheapest prices, fast shipping, I do support) eliminating their bms-battery.com website (which was being mistaken for bmsbattery.com) and working with TS factory engineer to reprogram controller to allow 52v battery.

I cannot see your link, so I dunno... but I have the programming stuff en route already...

Looking for some light combos to offer with the new model, too

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Patoruzu » Jul 22 2017 4:41pm

eyebyesickle wrote:... and working with TS factory engineer to reprogram controller to allow 52v battery.
I cannot see your link, so I dunno... but I have the programming stuff en route already...
I thought you were into that, therefore my question :)
This is the image of that link (the service kit software)
servicekit.jpg
servicekit.jpg (92.14 KiB) Viewed 2696 times
Get from him the info on how to enable the watt/volt/wh/etc meters :)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Jul 22 2017 4:49pm

[quote="Patoruzu"You said you had a video about Firmware programming?
Do you have access to the following software too?
http://www.tsbicycle.net/imageRepositor ... 530125.jpg[/quote]

When I look for that image, it just says:

503 Service Unavailable
No server is available to handle this request.

So thanks for publishing the image; I WANT ONE OF THOSE! :D

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Patoruzu » Jul 22 2017 5:22pm

Funny, I access that image through a load balancer in London...

That software is a simple frontend that has some values that I would very much like to tune.
The other software we have seen here is rather a HEX editor, which is fine, as long as we know what should be changed where.

I have everything required already to operate the HEX editor, but no information about what and where :)
Bah, I also need what they call B.Reader if I do not want to physically void my warranty (by connecting to the internal JST connector)

I want the integrated watt/volt meter. In the meantime, tomorrow, I will be installing one more cable from the motor/battery to the cockpit, neat, but not the most elegant:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/50A-New ... 66121.html

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 22 2017 10:00pm

Patoruzu wrote:Funny, I access that image through a load balancer in London...

That software is a simple frontend that has some values that I would very much like to tune.
The other software we have seen here is rather a HEX editor, which is fine, as long as we know what should be changed where.

I have everything required already to operate the HEX editor, but no information about what and where :)
Bah, I also need what they call B.Reader if I do not want to physically void my warranty (by connecting to the internal JST connector)

I want the integrated watt/volt meter. In the meantime, tomorrow, I will be installing one more cable from the motor/battery to the cockpit, neat, but not the most elegant:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/50A-New ... 66121.html
Well, start by poking around searching for the specific voltage values you know are programmed.... and then take it from there... :wink:

Here, this might help

Voltage - Numeric Value
24 3C
33 52
36 5A
48 78

I'm riding the line sharing this information now that I am providing support and working with the factory technicians/engineers of TS.

This information is kind of OEM only, which I think we all knew going into this ahead of time =P just sayin... Still trying to come through regardless ( they'll never take my balls! :mrgreen: ) but honestly you'll never have to reprogram again.... we are just days (and days and days and days, of course haha) away from having 52v18a units with the lights and all that jazz


also, as for the nice clean program... maybe you can't adjust the HVC with that clean little program... eh?

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Norton   10 W

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Norton » Jul 23 2017 8:42am

eyebyesickle wrote:.....I'm riding the line sharing this information now that I am providing support and working with the factory technicians/engineers of TS.
.... we are just days (and days and days and days, of course haha) away from having 52v18a units with the lights and all that jazz

... maybe you can't adjust the XXX with that clean little program... eh?
Man, this is great TS has someone in the USA, an English speaker, and someone with some tech knowledge, to assist with "THINGS" !! :D
Like what about the throttle that comes in some of the kits and is available separately ?

Please don't mess up... and encourage hacking.

I still don't understand the 'Home Hackers'. When a piece of electronic equipment is designed for 750 watts of power consumption,,,,
What do they think happens when you hack it to consume 1000 watts, or 1500 watts, or whatever??? Evv very ting will be all rrite ???

Even with the bone stock 48V 15A unit:
If we get the throttle to work,, and if you sit back and let this little mid-drive do all the work,,,
will it be just fine in this +100°F heat operating non-stop at 750 W,, for hours,, even if you keep it in its happy RPM range? (and I'm not even talking about the blue gear)

Somehow, I doubt it. Only clowns like us would run it like that. It needs TMS, like the big boy EV's have for the pack and the drive unit.
If the motor and/or power controller are getting close to letting the smoke out, it's time to throttle back on the current,,, with no hacky-hack override....

TS needs researchers like you Eyeby !!! Thank you for the work you do !!!

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 23 2017 10:57am

Thanks.

Yeah... let me be clear. I DON'T ENCOURAGE HACKING ("I am not a crook" haha, feels weird even saying something like that)

but I also try to follow through... so tried to be helpful. I really don't recommend that, though, I think I have stated...

So there you have it :) :( I'm torn hahahah

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Patoruzu » Jul 23 2017 2:58pm

Let's put hacking into perspective.

Performance hacking
CPU and other electronics are often being crippled to mega produce 1 and sell it to different market segments and different prices. Hacking there is more thank welcome.
I do not think this is the case for TS, and I am not planning to extract 2000w from this motor :) Fine with me as it is. Tuning is a different story, and it would be nice if it is made 52V compatible.

Feature hacking:
This I encourage all the way through. What were they thinking when they implemented Headlights on hardware and software but forgot to build the right cable!?!? Or why the volt and watt meter were removed?
Let's bring the features. And of course, tuning here too. The firmware is not perfect at guessing my capacity level out of the battery voltage, and customizing the level of assistance and other things would be very much welcome.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Jul 23 2017 3:44pm

:cry:

I'm SORRRY, I DIDNT DO IT, IM NOT THE HACKER

:lol:

just messin around a little =)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Garth » Jul 24 2017 7:38am

Does anyone know a supplier for this Interface incl. the Software needed.

I would like to try, but cant find it in the net.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Patoruzu » Jul 24 2017 8:29am

Garth wrote:
Does anyone know a supplier for this Interface incl. the Software needed.

I would like to try, but cant find it in the net.
Firmware Programing:
  • No one has seen the "PC Aided Software"
    servicekit.jpg
    servicekit.jpg (92.14 KiB) Viewed 2543 times
    The "A Adapter" is a publicly available Serial-USB Adapter
    The "B Reader" no one has seen it either, but you can open the motor and connect straight to the internal connector
    To program the STM you need the publicly available ST-LINK/V2 , which comes with the HEX editor also publish here some days ago.
    controllerprogrammingkit.jpg
    controllerprogrammingkit.jpg (86.24 KiB) Viewed 2543 times
    If you use the HEX editor instead of the front end ""PC Aided Software" you will need docu about what to change where, or try to reverse engineer it. Like in this video:
I want at least to enable the power info as seen in this video:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by extrasilver » Jul 25 2017 2:52am

Hi Guys

little late to the party but i thought i'd let you all know what i'm up to with my TSDZ2 system

after spending weeks of researching about the TSDZ system and trying to find a way of installing a throttle or to bump the amp's/volts up a little i've come to the idea of simply putting my own custom controller together.

well not exactly building my own from scratch but to purchase a 6 FET IRFB4110 Sensored Infineon Controller along with the programming USB cable.

i will also be purchasing another stock TSDZ2 controller new, used or broken to i can harvest the outer metal casing along with the cable connectors.. i will be retrofitting the infineon controller into it and soldering on the phase wire connector and anything else that may need adding

please note.. i will no longer be using the torque sensing feature of the motor nor will i be using any of the stock LCD's buttons or speed sensor. this will just a custom throttle only controller

the reason why is because i would like the option to be able to switch between my own controller and the stock controller when ever i like.. i don't want to permanently modify the system and at the same time i want to keep the controller internal

along with the custom-ish build controller i will be purchasing the brass/copper gear to replace the blue nylon one..


why are you even doing this? just purchase a BBS02/HD..

1) the TSDZ unit is very compact and keep my bike looking as stealth a possible
2) i already have the TSDZ2 system, i wont be spending a further 400+ more on a BBS02/HD system
3) its simply fun to do!
4) be the first known person in the word to push this TDSZ2 system to its upper limits :D
5) i believe that almost every hub motor and mid drive system has been hot-rodded by somebody somewhere but nobody has done it to a TSDZ2 system before from what i can see.. so i'm going to sacrifice mine in the name of curiosity, science, engineering and physics!
Last edited by extrasilver on Jul 25 2017 3:20am, edited 1 time in total.
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if it has boobies or wheels.. its going to cost you money

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Animalector » Jul 25 2017 3:04am

Interesting. Tangentdave is developing a small controller to interface a torque sensor bottom bracket into a throttle control (I think).. you could use that to retain the torque control and have throttle as well.

Do you know for sure that a 6 FET Infineon will fit?

Andy

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