new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by emaayan » Jan 25 2016 12:03pm

turbo1889 wrote:@ emaayan

I don't get the banana reference.

As to the gearbox question, I have looked for a long time for a good source of gearboxes myself and have yet to find anything that provided the level of quality, selection, and reasonable price I want without having to order them in truck load quantities. "Battle Robot" gearboxes are about as good as it gets for just buying a single gearbox or two at a half way reasonable price unless you get lucky on ebay or have your own machine shop. The "Battle Robot" gearboxes are sold at various places around the net and are strong and compact but unfortunately are a little high priced in my opinion considering they are not fully bearing supported and at least the planets if not the main shafts as well run in bushings rather then true bearings.

sorry,i mainly dwell in ESFB , and each time someone presents a part (motor, battery pack) they always display a banana for scale, sorta became a tradition, or a running gag, i thought it came from here.
"Battle Robot" is a brand name?
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

turbo1889   100 W

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by turbo1889 » Jan 25 2016 12:22pm

No --- A "battle robot" is something that mechanical and electronic nuts build and put in a big pit with others creations and try to destroy ever other robot, last one standing is the winner.

Basically, robot cage fighting for nerds. The kind of sport that college kids at MIT and similar schools really get into.

There are places online that sell pre-made gearboxes that the kids can buy and incorporate into their robots. More then one brand/place selling them. Considering what they are designed for they tend to be very strongly built little gear boxes that can take a lot for their size but unfortunately are usually not equipped with a full set of bearings for long term use.

I used one a couple years back on an RC motor build, can't remember exactly which one or where I bought it from online. I just searched around till I found the best/cheapest one that would work for my application.

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by emaayan » Jan 25 2016 12:47pm

I've read this http://m.instructables.com/id/Planetary-Gear/
But i have a few problems (first being the parts are out of stock ) the other being the ring gear doesn't seem to come with mounting screws

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by turbo1889 » Jan 25 2016 5:45pm

It also looks more like a demonstration-model/educators-tool/toy then an actual fully functional piece of machinery expected to provide solid reliability for years of service on an e-bike drive.

Checked out the website he got his parts from and they have some nice high quality ready made gear boxes and they will sell in single units they just want $500-$1,000+ for them. I paid just under a $100 for the one I used for that RC motor drive I built a couple years ago but then it was one of those ones sold for that battle robots and only had bearings on the input and output shafts and between the stages with the planets just running in simple pin holes so it can't be expected to give the service life that a quality gear box with every shaft including the planetary gear shafts with full bearings would give.

If you knew all the exact specs for the planet gears used in the 3-Kw cyclone gear box they just might have replacement gears for you though maybe even metal ones for those so desiring looked like they had a pretty good selection. By the picture the planets are 22t, to that you just need to know if they are metric or inch standard, then the pitch, then the pressure angle, then their width, and then a bore to exactly fit the press in cartridge bearings would be nice but a smaller diameter bore could be opened up to the correct size easily enough. Only knowing the number of teeth (22t) I could only narrow it down to 129 possible metric metal gears, 48 possible inch metal gears, 81 possible metric plastic gears, & 19 possible inch plastic gears. Surely somewhere in that selection there should be at least one or two possibilities but maybe not.

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by emaayan » Jan 26 2016 1:04am

my problem with the current gearboxes is how incredibly thick they are, they really add up to the whole motor width, if something like the http://products.matexgears.com/item/all ... -lbs-/5mhh could have been used on those, that would help to narrow it down .but i don't know if the matex can handle it.

where did you find the gearboxes on that site?
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by lantice13 » Jan 26 2016 2:40am

markz wrote:
If you live within North America, just buy it from Lunacycles http://lunacycle.com/motors/mid-drive-k ... planetary/
I didnt realize Luna sold 8kw and 10kw setups. 120Acont. :twisted:
WOW.jpg
Take what cyclone listed with a pinch of salt.....I mean this 3kw mid drive already flexes the stock mounting plates pretty good let alone 8kw and above.... from what I read around here, only way to get these high powered mid drives to run reliable is to use a single reduction direct drive.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by turbo1889 » Jan 26 2016 2:07pm

emaayan wrote:my problem with the current gearboxes is how incredibly thick they are, they really add up to the whole motor width, if something like the http://products.matexgears.com/item/all ... -lbs-/5mhh could have been used on those, that would help to narrow it down .but i don't know if the matex can handle it.

where did you find the gearboxes on that site?
Actually that gear box you link too is just about right for this motor since the cyclone 3-Kw motor kit is rated for a maximum output torque of 100-Nm and it can handle that level of torque well into a high enough output RPM for almost any mid-drive e-bike application (As shown in this torque-vs.-RPM graph from their Japanese website).

The issue would be attaching it to the face of the motor with a custom housing to ensure both sealing up the unit sufficiently to ensure at least a grease lubrication or better yet an oil tight housing for full wet lubrication and providing quality output shaft bearing support to take the axial loads. A lot of work but it certainly could be done.

My concern though would be that I could not confirm that the Matex LGU-120M gearbox you suggest has planets that are running in real bearings or if they are just running in bushings? Planets running in just bushings is fine for a system that is used only in short spurts but for a sustained duty cycle without the planets running on real bearings it will get sloppy over time. The one thing I like about both the old 650-w and the new 3-Kw cyclone gear head motors is that their gear boxes both have both the individual planet gears and input and output shafts all running in real bearings. Plus they are already put together for you and you don't have to figure out how to mate up the motor and gear-box or try to construct a custom housing for your application.

As to the sdp-si.com websites gearboxes they are listed under their "Gearheads" and "Speed Reducers" categories. They have some smaller cheapo units on the top of the page and then about half way down they get into some high quality gear boxes which unfortunately are mostly out of stock or rather on the expensive side but they are already in a sealed housing and many capable of taking the axial loads on the output shaft so if you had the money and could match up to the shaft size of your motor its do-able.

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emaayan   100 kW

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by emaayan » Jan 26 2016 3:41pm

turbo1889 wrote:
emaayan wrote:my problem with the current gearboxes is how incredibly thick they are, they really add up to the whole motor width, if something like the http://products.matexgears.com/item/all ... -lbs-/5mhh could have been used on those, that would help to narrow it down .but i don't know if the matex can handle it.

where did you find the gearboxes on that site?
Actually that gear box you link too is just about right for this motor since the cyclone 3-Kw motor kit is rated for a maximum output torque of 100-Nm and it can handle that level of torque well into a high enough output RPM for almost any mid-drive e-bike application (As shown in this torque-vs.-RPM graph from their Japanese website).

The issue would be attaching it to the face of the motor with a custom housing to ensure both sealing up the unit sufficiently to ensure at least a grease lubrication or better yet an oil tight housing for full wet lubrication and providing quality output shaft bearing support to take the axial loads. A lot of work but it certainly could be done.

My concern though would be that I could not confirm that the Matex LGU-120M gearbox you suggest has planets that are running in real bearings or if they are just running in bushings? Planets running in just bushings is fine for a system that is used only in short spurts but for a sustained duty cycle without the planets running on real bearings it will get sloppy over time. The one thing I like about both the old 650-w and the new 3-Kw cyclone gear head motors is that their gear boxes both have both the individual planet gears and input and output shafts all running in real bearings. Plus they are already put together for you and you don't have to figure out how to mate up the motor and gear-box or try to construct a custom housing for your application.

As to the sdp-si.com websites gearboxes they are listed under their "Gearheads" and "Speed Reducers" categories. They have some smaller cheapo units on the top of the page and then about half way down they get into some high quality gear boxes which unfortunately are mostly out of stock or rather on the expensive side but they are already in a sealed housing and many capable of taking the axial loads on the output shaft so if you had the money and could match up to the shaft size of your motor its do-able.
the reason i got to matex is that an extremely similar gearbox to this one http://products.matexgears.com/item/all ... /5sad-1032 was used in the ecospeed http://www.ebay.com/itm/Currie-Planetar ... 1116107952 , however matex says it's not theirs, and it's not visible, because that currie drive has 4 round inserts which allow for more freedom.
anyway the currie lasted nice for a couple of months under 2000w, it had to be replaced because it's teeth got all worn out.

the reason why i like those is because they are so thin, and really minimize the profile of the motor.
however looking again, the motor open, (on the 2nd post) i don't think the cover can be removed from the motor, and that thing is like 3 cm deep. i'm always thinking in terms of can it fit 128 mm torque sensor.
Trek 7.7 fx, 22.5" frame, 38x700c,10 gears.
ecospeed mid drive 1300 watt engine, max speed 45 kph.
battery1: 48v 14 ah, frame mounted battery, range 40km.
battery2(spare) 52v 10ah frame mounted bag, range, 30km.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by jk1 » Jan 26 2016 6:04pm

All of you guys that are having jumpy throttles, I suggest upgrading to a proper programable controller that you can tweak the battery and phase amps ratio to something that starts smooth when you throttle up. this will save your gear


i thought this thing comes with a kelly controller? is that programmable?
Cyclone don't sell the 100A Kelly controllers any more so you can't program anything with the cheap and nasty controller that comes with these 3000w kits. The AFT 3000W kit look interesting when it comes out as it says it will have a Kelly controller and also optional sinewave i'm guessing Kelly controller?

http://www.aft-ebike.com/kits--pricing.html

Also has anyone noticed how much the AUD has dropped vs the USD ? These AFT kits are like 30 to 40% cheaper then they were a few years ago due to the AUD tanking

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by turbo1889 » Jan 26 2016 9:44pm

Yah, I bought some ultra micro (postage stamp size) ultra light indoor RC model aircraft receivers (think RC model aircraft about the size of paper airplanes) from an Ausi place online that is one of the few places that sells them and was surprised at how favorable the conversion rate was then previous purchases when I made the Pay-Pal transfer.

I think its probably because most of the real "meat & bones" of the Ausi economy is raw materials based and they are getting the back lash of the Chinese and others not buying as much raw materials from the rest of the world as they were doing a few years back. Kind of sucks for them for their national economy as a whole but does make the stuff they sell to us smaller buyers look like its on a discount sale.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by turbo1889 » Jan 26 2016 10:03pm

I did notice and like that AFT says on their website that they intend to install a stronger version of the plastic gears in their version of the 3-Kw cyclone. If they follow through that would be a source of replacement gears right there, both for their supposedly higher strength replacements and also all those perfectly good stock gears they will be pulling out to install the higher strength ones for those of us who might just want to have a few spare sets in our stock-pile so that if something does go wrong we don't have to find, order, and then wait for replacements to show up in the mail to get back on the road again.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by turbo1889 » Jan 26 2016 10:11pm

emaayan wrote: . . .
the reason i got to matex is that an extremely similar gearbox to this one http://products.matexgears.com/item/all ... /5sad-1032 was used in the ecospeed http://www.ebay.com/itm/Currie-Planetar ... 1116107952 , however matex says it's not theirs, and it's not visible, because that currie drive has 4 round inserts which allow for more freedom.
anyway the currie lasted nice for a couple of months under 2000w, it had to be replaced because it's teeth got all worn out.

the reason why i like those is because they are so thin, and really minimize the profile of the motor.
however looking again, the motor open, (on the 2nd post) i don't think the cover can be removed from the motor, and that thing is like 3 cm deep. i'm always thinking in terms of can it fit 128 mm torque sensor.
It doesn't surprise me at all that it wore out considering the Matex LGU 75-S is only rated for 1/17th of the torque compared to the Matex LGU 120-M which by its rating should be just strong enough to take the full combined torque & RPM loads that the 3-Kw cyclone motor is capable of putting out. Running 2-Kw through a gear box of similar design that has 1/17th the rated strength I would think would be pushing it far beyond its limits resulting in premature failure.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by tomjasz » Jan 27 2016 1:59am

60A due any day.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by lantice13 » Jan 27 2016 4:59am

jk1 wrote:
All of you guys that are having jumpy throttles, I suggest upgrading to a proper programable controller that you can tweak the battery and phase amps ratio to something that starts smooth when you throttle up. this will save your gear


i thought this thing comes with a kelly controller? is that programmable?
Cyclone don't sell the 100A Kelly controllers any more so you can't program anything with the cheap and nasty controller that comes with these 3000w kits. The AFT 3000W kit look interesting when it comes out as it says it will have a Kelly controller and also optional sinewave i'm guessing Kelly controller?

http://www.aft-ebike.com/kits--pricing.html

Also has anyone noticed how much the AUD has dropped vs the USD ? These AFT kits are like 30 to 40% cheaper then they were a few years ago due to the AUD tanking
Old school infineon controllers works just fine with this motor and price is not too bad either. just sayin. I'm running on the GNG gen 1 right now on my commencal Meta super 4 with an infineon controller at soft start. I'm really in the fence for this kit since this newer 2015 GNGs are still crap after all these years, pretty much the same motor from the looks of it with just a planetary first stage.. waiting for the usual "tuner" kit builders to show their modifications on the stock kit. mainly LR and AFT. still gonna use the same 9fet infineon controller that the GNG is running on. I only run these things at 1kw peak so if they are able to withstand 3kw peak then I should have a pretty bomb proof mid drive at 1kw peak. ;)

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by gman1971 » Jan 27 2016 3:54pm

Good news is that I rolled 400 miles on my kit today. Not a single issue, no broken motor shaft, no broken throttle, no snapped chain tensioner, no shitty one-way clutch failure... basically the radical opposite to the GNG turd it replaced.

The only incident was that I had to fully waterproof all the cable connectors. I had an issue with the snow/salt water on the road the other day touching the contacts and I had to shut the ebike down. Other than that (which wasn't the kit's fault) its working great. Motor has quiet down somewhat after the first 200 miles or so... it is still audible, but more silent than when brand new. I also keep the thing cleaned/lubed daily due to the road salt and sludge that is all over the Wisconsin roads right now.

Highly recommended kit. It works great even on the cold and salty roads of Wisconsin.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-3 trike, ?-kW, ??+ mph (Cyclone powered) Very fast, ludicrous speed fast...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by tomjasz » Jan 27 2016 5:08pm

Anyone using a CA3 with this kit?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by gman1971 » Jan 27 2016 5:47pm

Not me, I am using CA2 Sorry.

G.
tomjasz wrote:Anyone using a CA3 with this kit?
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-3 trike, ?-kW, ??+ mph (Cyclone powered) Very fast, ludicrous speed fast...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by tomjasz » Jan 27 2016 5:52pm

I don't have my kit yet...is there a connector or did you have to mod?
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by gman1971 » Jan 27 2016 6:22pm

tomjasz wrote:I don't have my kit yet...is there a connector or did you have to mod?
I didn't have to mod the CA, nor make adapters because I used the CA Shunt Resistor. The Cyclone kit comes with a large red connector (battery) with long cable leads. I soldered a Deans T-connector to those open leads and then I soldered another Deans connector to both ends of the Cycle Analyst Shunt resistor (which has the 6 pin molex connector that hooks to the Cycle Analyst) and then I made a deans to XT90 for the bike batteries. (XT90 is much nicer to plug-unplug than Deans)

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-3 trike, ?-kW, ??+ mph (Cyclone powered) Very fast, ludicrous speed fast...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by evolutiongts » Jan 27 2016 10:25pm

tomjasz wrote:Anyone using a CA3 with this kit?
I am, I'm using a shunt adapter from electricrider.com
http://www.electricrt.com
Electric Race Technologies

Schwinn 405 2WD Track Bike 18KW
EDGE 1500W Hub / MXUS 3K Turbo
ASI BAC 2000 / BAC 4000 Bluetooth
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

10Kw KMX death trike
MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83423

Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
74V 3000W
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=59005

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by evolutiongts » Jan 27 2016 10:26pm

lantice13 wrote:
jk1 wrote:
All of you guys that are having jumpy throttles, I suggest upgrading to a proper programable controller that you can tweak the battery and phase amps ratio to something that starts smooth when you throttle up. this will save your gear


i thought this thing comes with a kelly controller? is that programmable?
Cyclone don't sell the 100A Kelly controllers any more so you can't program anything with the cheap and nasty controller that comes with these 3000w kits. The AFT 3000W kit look interesting when it comes out as it says it will have a Kelly controller and also optional sinewave i'm guessing Kelly controller?

http://www.aft-ebike.com/kits--pricing.html

Also has anyone noticed how much the AUD has dropped vs the USD ? These AFT kits are like 30 to 40% cheaper then they were a few years ago due to the AUD tanking
Old school infineon controllers works just fine with this motor and price is not too bad either. just sayin. I'm running on the GNG gen 1 right now on my commencal Meta super 4 with an infineon controller at soft start. I'm really in the fence for this kit since this newer 2015 GNGs are still crap after all these years, pretty much the same motor from the looks of it with just a planetary first stage.. waiting for the usual "tuner" kit builders to show their modifications on the stock kit. mainly LR and AFT. still gonna use the same 9fet infineon controller that the GNG is running on. I only run these things at 1kw peak so if they are able to withstand 3kw peak then I should have a pretty bomb proof mid drive at 1kw peak. ;)
1k peak is nothing, I'm doing 750w-2.5kw on steep climbs, inclines so steep the front wheel lifts up, but the back tires wants to keep going and going.
http://www.electricrt.com
Electric Race Technologies

Schwinn 405 2WD Track Bike 18KW
EDGE 1500W Hub / MXUS 3K Turbo
ASI BAC 2000 / BAC 4000 Bluetooth
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

10Kw KMX death trike
MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83423

Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
74V 3000W
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=59005

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by Leebolectric » Jan 27 2016 11:48pm

What is the best way to remove all these unneeded wires?
How do I avoid shorting something out and causing damage?
Electrical newb here...don't wanna hamburger it...so much wirey mess...
Connections all make sense, but lot of leftovers.
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2015 Intense Tracer275 with Tangent Ascent inside triangle https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75045
2010 Turner 5Spot with BaffangHD https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75569
2009 KHS Velvet 6" with BafangHD (see above thread^)
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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by tomjasz » Jan 28 2016 12:11am

evolutiongts wrote:
tomjasz wrote:Anyone using a CA3 with this kit?
I am, I'm using a shunt adapter from electricrider.com
Good to read there's another source. Not impressed by the connectors. They can keep those. I'd rather some vendors didn't bother with connectors. Kinda spendy compared to ebikes.ca, but more sources are a good thing $38 delivered from Justin. $49 from eRider.

Thanks for the feedback!!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by tomjasz » Jan 28 2016 12:42am

ebikes.ca has an inexpensive elastic velcro bit that neatens up wire clusters. I've also used large diameter shrink tubing to cover a cluster.

http://www.ebikes.ca/consleeve.html
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Post by evolutiongts » Jan 28 2016 2:52am

tomjasz wrote:
evolutiongts wrote:
tomjasz wrote:Anyone using a CA3 with this kit?
I am, I'm using a shunt adapter from electricrider.com
Good to read there's another source. Not impressed by the connectors. They can keep those. I'd rather some vendors didn't bother with connectors. Kinda spendy compared to ebikes.ca, but more sources are a good thing $38 delivered from Justin. $49 from eRider.

Thanks for the feedback!!
I called electric rider and got the shunt adapter without the connectors I believe it was just $30
http://www.electricrt.com
Electric Race Technologies

Schwinn 405 2WD Track Bike 18KW
EDGE 1500W Hub / MXUS 3K Turbo
ASI BAC 2000 / BAC 4000 Bluetooth
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

10Kw KMX death trike
MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83423

Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
74V 3000W
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=59005

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