LR Big Block Motoped

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LightningRods   10 MW

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LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Feb 27 2020 11:05pm

I’ve had my eye on the Motoped for years, mostly because of its clever jackshaft design. I hesitated because it had already been converted to electric a few times and the Motoped company never responded to any requests for information that I sent them. Finally a customer sent me his Motoped Pro to rework and that settled it.
The customer, Ian, had already paid for an electric conversion using a Golden Motor 3kW mid drive motor. This actually should have been fine, but for some reason was very disappointing. Not helping the situation was a 50 lb LiPo pouch battery pack that I nicknamed “The Footlocker”. Over the course of more than a year Ian and I kicked around the idea of a bigger controller for the 3kW or a 5kw GM mid drive with even more controller. I didn’t recommend my own Big Block back then because I didn’t feel it would be enough of a performance bump from the GM 3kW.

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While we were deliberating about the Motoped, good things were happening to the Big Block. Alan Hu at Electric Race Technologies hooked the Big Block up to several different ASI controllers and started getting crazy power and rpm out of it. Before I knew it my 6000 watt 4500 rpm motor was a 9000 watt 8500 rpm motor. And then I found a new factory that makes an Internal Permanent Magnet motor that is more advanced than the old motor, produces hall signals that high tech controllers like, and has imbedded magnets that won’t come loose when you scream the snot out of the motor. Plus the biggest of the new motors is wider than a Big Block and weighs 32% more. Enter the XL Big Block. Test runs on an EEB produced performance that Alan referred to as “frightening”. The XL Big Block seemed ready for the Motoped.

Most builders who have done a Motoped electric conversion have used both the upper and lower gas engine mounts on the Motoped frame. I've always felt that the gas engine sits too high in the frame and so the electric versions did the same. I wanted my motor in line with the driveline. So I used the lower frame mount as the upper and designed a hard rubber split block to grab the frame backbone for the lower mount. I also designed a battery pack that wasn't just a cube.

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Here is a 3D printed PLA mockup of the drive. You can see the PLA print of the lower split block here. I'll pull a RTV mold of these pattern parts and cast the blocks in semi rigid 2 part urethane. Most of the sheets will be laser cut 6061 aluminum.

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The mock up installed on the frame. I made a dummy motor using the lightweight side cases and spacers. The 13 lb XLBB would break the plastic parts.

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I also printed PLA tests of the new sprockets that I designed for this build. By converting to #219 racing kart chain I gained 40% more reduction in the same sprocket diameter compared to the Motoped 1/2" chain. #219 is good to 20 hp.

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The 3D printed sprockets are exactly like the metal versions will be so the chains can be installed to check chainline and sprocket clearances. The final sprockets will be laser cut from T303 stainless steel.

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This build is ongoing so more progress photos will be coming very soon.
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SlowCo   100 kW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by SlowCo » Feb 28 2020 6:41am

This looks very promising :thumb:
Nice work so far LR!

HK12K   10 kW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by HK12K » Feb 28 2020 12:18pm

You have my attention.

Do you plan to offer a XL version of the Raptor 140 kit?

Frightening sounds fun.

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Feb 28 2020 8:02pm

Thank you SlowCo!

HK12K: All future Qulbix swingarm drives (Q76 and Q140) will be the new IPM motor. Available width on the Qulbix swingarm limits motor width to 100mm IF YOU WANT THE PEDAL CHAINLINE. With footpegs and no chainring on the right you can run the 110mm wide XL motor.
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HK12K   10 kW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by HK12K » Feb 29 2020 10:49am

:( :thumb:

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Feb 29 2020 12:27pm

looking good, I like how the frame engine mounts are utilized to mount the motor and battery encloser.. contact Bruce at motocruzin.com , there may be more interest in commercializing this kit ??(currently there using golden motor) ..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Feb 29 2020 12:36pm

Thanks! This customer knows Bruce. He wrote Bruce this last week. It appears that for the time being Motoped factory production has shut down. It’s really a shame because I am able to scale production up to meet the needs of a large reseller. I don’t know if Motoped has always struggled with funding or what their issue was. A solid electric version definitely would have helped them. For now we’ll just have to be happy with upgrading existing Motopeds.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Feb 29 2020 12:51pm

I know Ian also .. it was me that referred him to LR .. :bigthumb:
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Feb 29 2020 1:02pm

Thanks for that! Ian is a good guy.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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skyungjae   10 kW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by skyungjae » Mar 01 2020 1:17pm

Keep up the good work LR! :bigthumb:
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Mar 01 2020 1:31pm

Hey old friend! Good to hear from you! Things have changed a lot from the early 1500 watt small blocks, eh?
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

Lightning Rods Web Site http://www.lightningrodev.com
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macribs   1.21 GW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by macribs » Mar 02 2020 4:43pm

This is gonna be a fun ride.
While we were deliberating about the Motoped, good things were happening to the Big Block. Alan Hu at Electric Race Technologies hooked the Big Block up to several different ASI controllers and started getting crazy power and rpm out of it. Before I knew it my 6000 watt 4500 rpm motor was a 9000 watt 8500 rpm motor. And then I found a new factory that makes an Internal Permanent Magnet motor that is more advanced than the old motor, produces hall signals that high tech controllers like, and has imbedded magnets that won’t come loose when you scream the snot out of the motor. Plus the biggest of the new motors is wider than a Big Block and weighs 32% more. Enter the XL Big Block. Test runs on an EEB produced performance that Alan referred to as “frightening”. The XL Big Block seemed ready for the Motoped.
Yeah I do remember those Big Blocks from back in the days. Cool that they are pushing the BB som much harder using ASI controllers.

This new motor, is it the mid drive series from QS you are gonna use on the motoped? What kind of peak power are you guys aiming for on this build?

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Mar 02 2020 9:41pm

macribs wrote:
Mar 02 2020 4:43pm
This is gonna be a fun ride.
Yeah I do remember those Big Blocks from back in the days. Cool that they are pushing the BB som much harder using ASI controllers.
This new motor, is it the mid drive series from QS you are gonna use on the motoped? What kind of peak power are you guys aiming for on this build?
Yeah this bike should be a blast to ride.

The QS motors are different from the Big Block. From what I know of them the 3kW version is roughly comparable to the Big Block. We’re aiming for the magic 10,000 watts, a number I’ve always wanted to hit.

I ordered the laser cut metal today. We’re on the home stretch.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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Chambers   10 W

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by Chambers » Mar 03 2020 2:14am

Hey LR,

What's the stator width on these ipm motors?

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Mar 03 2020 2:19am

The narrowest motor I have has a rotor/stator width of approx 30mm. This widest motor that I’m using on the Motoped has a rotor/stator width of 60mm.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by Skaiwerd » Mar 03 2020 5:33pm

What thickness will you get your 219 sprocket? I’m thinking 4mm? 3/16” is nearing 5mm and tight. Metric chain metric thickness I’m thinking.
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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Mar 03 2020 5:41pm

Yes 4mm.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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AngryBob   100 W

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by AngryBob » Mar 03 2020 6:27pm

LR - Not sure if you have read the Multiple comments regarding ERT in the Vendor Relations Corner? He is getting mentioned more than a certain California vendor.

Could be an issue with a narrow section of the market and folks who do not belong in it, but seem to be some serious trust and communication issues.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts and/or experience, both past and/or going forward.
"Not being treated like a dumb dick is one of the incentives we have to become less stupid." - Balmorhea.

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Mar 03 2020 10:53pm

Angry Bob,
No I haven’t read people’s comments about Alan. I’m not real good at monitoring social media.
My position with Alan is that he invested a ton of time in working to get my motors working with the ASI controllers. I can say with certainty that a lot of people’s frustrations are with the complexity of those controllers and how little ASI does to make them end user or even developer friendly. I ran through another smart guy before Alan who just gave up. Alan has made the ASIs work with my motor and several other types of motors. The problem was that ASI provided no means for customers to make even the most basic changes, like battery pack voltage. They tried to use the EggRider but that was not adequate. Alan started developing his programmable NXT color display. This is where his real troubles started. It’s turned out to be much more complicated and time consuming than he expected. I am also waiting on these displays from him. As far as all of the other stuff about not communicating goes, I’ve heard it but haven’t experienced it. He always responds to me. If you want my advice, give Alan some time to get the new display sorted. If it works the way he wants it to, it will complete the ASI controllers and make them end user friendly for the first time. Right now the factory is screwed up on their inventory of BAC4000s and 8000s anyway. Frustrating, but not Alan’s fault.
I hope I’ve answered your questions.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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AngryBob   100 W

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by AngryBob » Mar 04 2020 2:10am

Thank you for your response.

I was referring to 3-4 or more complaint threads in the Vendor section of this website. I think I understand what is happening.

It sounds like Alan is offering a custom, hi-performance product to folks who are expecting something more plug-and-play, which it is not.

It may be that the customers are not fully understanding the complex nature of the product they are buying, it may be that Alan is not adequately explaining the product he is offering for sale. He is getting some serious bad press here.

Been there, done that, in another area of business I liked and enjoyed but was unable to make a going concern of.

It sounds to me like the ASI product has some great potential, but is just not an item that is ready for the general consumer. Making it more "consumer-friendly" also has great potential, but will involve a lot of customer frustration due to impatience from folks who just want it NOW.

Lots of folks accomplish great things chasing a dream. Lots of others end up totally broken and defeated. The trick is knowing when to give up and quit, and try something completely different.

Thirty years ago I completely changed my line of work, just before I lost my marbles. I finally made it work after a year of development, and they decided they wanted something else. A period of heavy drinking ensued.

Sometimes you need a better product, sometimes you need better customers. Tough call.
"Not being treated like a dumb dick is one of the incentives we have to become less stupid." - Balmorhea.

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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Mar 04 2020 10:20am

Alan deals with a lot of people. A percentage of them are not going to be happy and a percentage of that group will try to hurt his reputation in the user groups. No one likes being bad mouthed. Alan can’t keep up with product demand as it is so he just shrugs those people off. It’s totally true in business that 10% of your customers take 90% of your energy.

You’re right on point that the ASI controllers are not at all end user products. ASI itself makes no bones about that. Even if you have access to their developer program BacDoor, you will find endless hidden sub menus and dependencies between seemingly unrelated parameters that will cause the controller to not run or not run properly. So why does anyone put up with them? The potential of the ASIs, in terms of raw power, in terms of advanced features, in terms of smooth, linear throttle response, is on a different level than the plug and play controllers. In the past my motors have been characterized with very abrupt throttle response and a big torque bump that falls off rapidly on the top end. The BAC2000 transforms my motors. The biggest change with the new IPM motors is a top end under field weakening that is like VTEC plus a turbo. Where the old motor with square wave was done the IPM with field weakening comes to life and makes even more power. WAY more power.

I get daily progress reports from Alan. He’s very close with his NXT programmable display. When he gets those dialed in anyone who can use an Infineon with a Cycle Analyst should be able to use an ASI controller. If you’re the impatient type do yourself and Alan a favor and wait until he’s through the development phase. The cookies aren’t finished baking yet.
"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
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Chambers   10 W

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by Chambers » Apr 06 2020 11:27pm

Hey LR,

Can I ask what the pictured distance is?
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LightningRods   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by LightningRods » Apr 06 2020 11:52pm

You want the O.D on that swingarm bracket? 8.6” or 218 mm.
Chambers wrote:
Apr 06 2020 11:27pm
Hey LR,

Can I ask what the pictured distance is?

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"I don’t mind that they stole my idea, I mind that they don’t have any of their own.”
-Nikola Tesla

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Chambers   10 W

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by Chambers » Apr 07 2020 12:00am

Yes - Thanks!

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skeetab5780   10 MW

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Re: LR Big Block Motoped

Post by skeetab5780 » Apr 07 2020 7:07am

Sub'd ill be PMing you for one of these motors soon!

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