My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

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garyal1   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by garyal1 » Oct 17 2019 7:18am

Here is the battery information from Ivy at Frey:

IVY wrote:
EX Max battery 48V14Ah inner+48V14Ah outer.
CC Max battery 48V17.5Ah. both do not apply for 52V.

Here is how the EX handles two batteries with auto-sensing of voltage:

IVY wrote:
About EX battery how they work I answer you below:
if 2 battery on bike, the? higher voltage will discharge firstly. till the 2 battery at same voltage , then 2 battery will together to discharge. so it is very convenient

In my mind this seems like a great way to handle two batteries and the bike should have a full 28AH useful charge. Too bad about the lack of 52 volt availability for these models. However, the 48 volt 21AH batteries Frey is supplying now come with a 40 amp BMS instead of a 30 amp BMS. This should lower the voltage sag at full 1500 watt draw.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by Sinbord1981 » Oct 17 2019 8:19am

garyal1 wrote:
Oct 17 2019 7:18am
Here is the battery information from Ivy at Frey:

IVY wrote:
EX Max battery 48V14Ah inner+48V14Ah outer.
CC Max battery 48V17.5Ah. both do not apply for 52V.

Here is how the EX handles two batteries with auto-sensing of voltage:

IVY wrote:
About EX battery how they work I answer you below:
if 2 battery on bike, the? higher voltage will discharge firstly. till the 2 battery at same voltage , then 2 battery will together to discharge. so it is very convenient

In my mind this seems like a great way to handle two batteries and the bike should have a full 28AH useful charge. Too bad about the lack of 52 volt availability for these models. However, the 48 volt 21AH batteries Frey is supplying now come with a 40 amp BMS instead of a 30 amp BMS. This should lower the voltage sag at full 1500 watt draw.
Yes Garyal1 they’ve designed it nicely and put some good thought in. Also it’s worth noting that you can order the EX with just the internal battery (EX Basic) and then upgrade and buy the external battery add on later. In that case, the original purchase with just the internal battery won’t have the additional battery external track making the bike look super sleek. When you buy the extra external battery you’d then fit the additional battery track/connector to allow the second battery to go on. It sort of answers the questions a lot of people have been asking me as some only want the internal battery version. Cheers.

cvin   10 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by cvin » Oct 18 2019 1:59am

would like to know the weight on the CC

thank you

garyal1   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by garyal1 » Oct 18 2019 9:28am

One correction I need to make to my above post:

The BMS(s) in the Frey batteries are NOT 40 amps. They are 30 amps. The FUSE has been upgraded to 40 amps.

they did this because at full throttle the bikes pull a full 30 amps and some of the fuses would fail over time. (ask me how I know this.. :-) )

My apologies for mistakenly posting incorrect information.

I did have an after market 52 volt Dorado battery (totally unrelated to Frey) that had the BMS fail. When I opened it up I found a 25 amp DALY BMS! Duh, no wonder it failed! I replaced it with a 40 amp DALY BMS which was physically larger but I made it fit and anchored it securely.

Now this battery works better and has much less voltage sag. To me this highlights that the BMS can cause voltage sag if you run it near or over the rated limit.

I wish ALL dorado battery packs came with 40 amp BMS, even though we only pull 30 amps maximum at full throttle on the Bafang Ultra. Less voltage sag and longer life....

I bought these 14S 40amp BMS (s) for about $20 delivered thru Alibaba.

Tom   1 kW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by Tom » Oct 19 2019 2:08pm

cvin wrote:
Oct 18 2019 1:59am
would like to know the weight on the CC

thank you
I emailed Frey. They responded the CC bike including 840WH internal battery is 32KGS.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by cvin » Oct 19 2019 2:41pm

Thanks Tom

Cool bike but that is a lot for me to lift onto the car rack, or just handle in general

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by TOLM » Oct 20 2019 2:50am

Sinbord1981 wrote:
Sep 28 2019 3:01pm
Grantmac wrote:
Sep 28 2019 1:48pm
I'd love to see some weights for Frey, especially from 3rd party testers.
‘Weights’ as in weight of the bikes? I’ve got the AM1000 - that weighs 32KG. We weighed the new EX whilst in the Frey factory last week - comes in at 34KG and I think that was with both the batteries fitted. My personal view is that these bikes wear their weight well in that the power of the bike, even on the lowest assist settings, more than offsets that. The quality of the components used also means they jump very well.
Why is am so heavy? 32 kg is way too much

Qwurdi   1 µW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by Qwurdi » Nov 01 2019 3:45pm

I would instantly buy the EX if they would offer Rohloff and Gates belt. The combination of the bafang ultra max with these components is very possible as shown here: https://www.orangebc.com/de/produkte/fa ... ssung.html

I messaged Ivy about it, no such option yet. But hopefully it will be an option next year :)

formula101   1 kW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by formula101 » Nov 01 2019 4:30pm

Hardcore wrote:
Sep 29 2019 2:58am
Grantmac wrote:
Sep 28 2019 3:50pm
75# is a really heavy bike unfortunately. I was hoping then be more inline with other ebikes around 55 or so.
I've heard stories that back in the 90s, lighter bikes became the trend to the extend where riders put their lifes on the line with underconstructed frames, thin wall'd rims, and rim brakes.
This is just dumb. Bikes in the '90's were not especially light. It's tough to generalize about bikes from that era since it was a time of so much change in frame materials, componentry and with the introduction of suspension. A statement like the above compromises your credibility.

Hardcore wrote:
Sep 29 2019 2:58am
Grantmac wrote:
Sep 28 2019 3:50pm
75# is a really heavy bike unfortunately. I was hoping then be more inline with other ebikes around 55 or so.
Nowadays, bikes actually became heavier, look at disc brakes, dropper posts, suspension forks, larger and wider wheels, wider handlebars, etc. .. would you like your bike without? Ebikes have most the weight in the right places, because of the placement of the motor, battery, controller, in the downtube and cranks. The emtbs weight conveys an enormous degree of confidence and provides undreamt-of grip through corners with incredible stopping power and makes ease of any uphill section. Just to mention, some downhillers have even placed lead weights on their bikes for the exact same reasons.

Now where is the disadvantage of weight, you name it, acceleration and uphill, or if you want to transport the bike unassisted. All these can be neglected if you just get a big enough battery and motor and I believe frey has hit a sweet spot with their EX that with one battery weighs about 30kg (34 with both batteries).

Now please, give me your view on this as I am eager to hear your side.
A heavier bike is more difficult to handle in every respect. Cornering becomes more difficult and laborious. Jumps are more difficult. Handling is compromised. Without suspension, electric bikes are much more uncomfortable than standard bikes due to their weight. Lifting the front wheel of an e-bike, bunny hopping or any other elementary bike handling maneuver becomes exponentially more difficult.

Weight is not a minor issue, as you portray it to be. There is also the issue of safety. A disproportionate percentage of ebike riders are older, and a significant percentage have some degree of disability from age and/or injury. Handling a very heavy bicycle is disadvantageous in such circumstances.

In my experience, e=bikes and nonmotorized bicycles have a very different feel due to the differences in weight. They cannot be dismissed out of hand or ignored as you attempt to do so so flippantly.

Qwurdi   1 µW

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by Qwurdi » Nov 01 2019 5:11pm

formula101 wrote:
Nov 01 2019 4:30pm
A heavier bike is more difficult to handle in every respect. Cornering becomes more difficult and laborious.
Thats not entirely true for every situation. The lower centre of gravitation can make for a much better experiences on the road when cornering. I currently drive a Stromer ST5 which is about 30kg and it feels much better to lay in a curve until the pedal hits the ground than on any other bike i drove before.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by formula101 » Nov 01 2019 5:27pm

Qwurdi wrote:
Nov 01 2019 5:11pm
formula101 wrote:
Nov 01 2019 4:30pm
A heavier bike is more difficult to handle in every respect. Cornering becomes more difficult and laborious.
Thats not entirely true for every situation. The lower centre of gravitation can make for a much better experiences on the road when cornering. I currently drive a Stromer ST5 which is about 30kg and it feels much better to lay in a curve until the pedal hits the ground than on any other bike i drove before.
A lower bottom bracket has nothing to do with bike weight. Entirely separate issues.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by Qwurdi » Nov 02 2019 7:17am

formula101 wrote:
Nov 01 2019 5:27pm

A lower bottom bracket has nothing to do with bike weight. Entirely separate issues.
Total weight is determined by drivers weight plus Bike weight. The heavier the bike, the lower the centre of Mass. Simple physics.

Things are different Offroad though, there are other limiting factors and traction doesnt scale up with weight the way it does on Road.

But for road use, weight isnt really a issue, granted theres a powerull motor.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by formula101 » Nov 04 2019 4:32pm

Qwurdi wrote:
Nov 02 2019 7:17am
formula101 wrote:
Nov 01 2019 5:27pm

A lower bottom bracket has nothing to do with bike weight. Entirely separate issues.
Total weight is determined by drivers weight plus Bike weight.
Yeah, that doesn't add anything to the conversation.

Hardcore   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by Hardcore » Nov 06 2019 5:42pm

I agree with you about the weight issues you mention, my point of view was personal. E-mtbs are a different workout, as in my case, the electric-assist got rid of pushing uphill. Now I can focus on getting run after run going up the hills 5 times instead of twice improving my riding skills. Sure, you can feel the weight, it gets me a good upper body workout when riding it down the trails. And yes, a lighter bike is the next step but what would the sweet spot be and how do you propose to get there. Frames (carbon), higher-density batteries, ..., probably on all aspects we got to shave some weight off or find some compromise. For now, it depends on what you want to do with the bike and what you can do with the bike.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by CyberNate » Nov 07 2019 1:55pm

garyal1 wrote:
Oct 17 2019 7:18am
Here is the battery information from Ivy at Frey:

IVY wrote:
EX Max battery 48V14Ah inner+48V14Ah outer.
CC Max battery 48V17.5Ah. both do not apply for 52V.

Here is how the EX handles two batteries with auto-sensing of voltage:

IVY wrote:
About EX battery how they work I answer you below:
if 2 battery on bike, the? higher voltage will discharge firstly. till the 2 battery at same voltage , then 2 battery will together to discharge. so it is very convenient

In my mind this seems like a great way to handle two batteries and the bike should have a full 28AH useful charge. Too bad about the lack of 52 volt availability for these models. However, the 48 volt 21AH batteries Frey is supplying now come with a 40 amp BMS instead of a 30 amp BMS. This should lower the voltage sag at full 1500 watt draw.
You could run a 52V as the add-on battery if the bike is smart enough with running the higher voltage battery first. I'm thinking of doing this as I have the same pack they show as the add-on in a 52V configuration.

The main question I have is if the Basic version comes with that auto-sensing feature and connector so that I can add my own pack.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by Hardcore » Nov 08 2019 4:26am

I'm not sure connecting a 52v and 48v battery at the same time is good for the batteries as at some point you still reach equal voltage and then ... I guess you'd only be able to use the 52v (58.8v charged) battery till it reaches 54v. If they'd place a switch between the internal battery lines you can disconnect the internal one. I would love to see a 52v version of the EX though.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by CyberNate » Nov 08 2019 10:40am

Both batteries together is not an issue. The issue is that the 52v battery BMS cut off will eventually get hit, which is lower than you should take the voltage for longevity. You could simply switch off the external once voltage gets down to around 45v.

Hardcore   100 W

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by Hardcore » Nov 08 2019 6:24pm

I always thought parallel connecting two different batteries is a bad idea but if they only get physically connected when the voltages are equal I guess it it should be do-able. Although their discharge curves will not be the same either. Well, let us know how it goes if you decide to give it a go.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by E-HP » Nov 08 2019 7:57pm

Hardcore wrote:I'm not sure connecting a 52v and 48v battery at the same time is good...
It’s best to do this on the 4th of July.

So your plan is to charge both to 54.6, then let count on the bms for shutting down the 52v battery in time? Or monitor the voltage and unplug it at the right time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by CyberNate » Nov 09 2019 2:06am

Hardcore wrote:
Nov 08 2019 6:24pm
I always thought parallel connecting two different batteries is a bad idea but if they only get physically connected when the voltages are equal I guess it it should be do-able. Although their discharge curves will not be the same either. Well, let us know how it goes if you decide to give it a go.
You cannot directly connect batteries with a delta in voltage or you’ll get a current surge. In this case there is a circuit that switches between the batteries if the voltage doesn’t match. The higher voltage battery is selected until voltage matches. Then they are used in parallel.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by coolminty » Dec 12 2019 6:35am

Hi Ivy,

I've asked a few times now along with others on this forum. Are they any plans to release a belt drive version with IGH?

I feel like name brand bikes are the only ones doing it & it would be great for you to offer the same as well.

Cheers

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by brake034 » Dec 29 2019 1:54am

Hello Coolminty,

Ivy is really busy this period, as end of January is Spring Festival, the most important holiday of the year.

Just last September the new Frey CC and EX bikes were revealed at our annual event.
Now the factory is building the first orders for them, so the first CC's and EXes will be on the road in 2020.

While we cannot reveal what we are working on for our model year 2021, be sure that we hear what you are all saying!
And, we might show off some prototypes at Sea Otter :D
FREY lifestyle: Free Ride Enjoy Yourself!

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by formula101 » Dec 29 2019 2:50am

Belt drives are utterly pointless. They are extremely expensive, very heavy, their gear ratios are extremely limited, and serviceability is very poor.

Meanwhile the standard chain drivetrains are very cost effective, easily serviceable, very light, gear ratios are far wider than most riders will ever need and availability is universal.

Chains are also getting stronger with every iteration. Interestingly, the new 12 speed chains are stronger than 8 or 9 speed chains despite being far thinner. Chains are also very quiet these days. I just bought a 9 speed kmc chain and you can barely hear it. I like how chains sound in any event. Worrying about chain noise is pointless: wind noise on an bike is far louder, as is tire noise.

Chains are generally very inexpensive. I picked up my kmc 9 speed for $7. Many people spend more on coffee in a day.

I sincerely hope Frey doesn't waste precious limited resources on an inferior technology.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by coolminty » Dec 29 2019 3:17am

Expensive: Partly due to a monopoly market for the products & machining costs. With far longer lifetimes the added initial cost is not much of a big problem. I've even heard audio from an interview stating that due to the lowered maintenance requirements bike shops should charge more to cover the reduction of servicing.

Heavy: Agreed. They are generally paired with an IGH which itself is heavy. Plus these are going on an already 30kg ebike. So I take this point as irrelevant unless you're talking about non-ebikes?

Gear ratios: Very dependent on what you put on the back end. So a bit of a moot point. There's plenty of offerings to choose from so you're not locked in to a small range. & like you said. Most offerings in derailur format have way more range than necessary.

Serviceability: What do you need to service? No grease. Generally tensioned correctly to last. Less derailments. Frames by design make them completely removalable if need be. They don't stretch as much(if at all?) over use like a chain does.

Noise: You must have a near perfect derailure drive line perfectly lubed day-in-day-out because mine definitely gives me enough chatter for it to be bothersome.

Also a chain can be used with an IGH driveline so you may want to be specific & mention derailures.

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Re: My Bafang Ultra Mountain Bike! NEW FREY EX and FREY CC

Post by formula101 » Dec 30 2019 6:11pm

coolminty wrote:
Dec 29 2019 3:17am
Expensive: Partly due to a monopoly market for the products & machining costs. With far longer lifetimes the added initial cost is not much of a big problem. I've even heard audio from an interview stating that due to the lowered maintenance requirements bike shops should charge more to cover the reduction of servicing.
A new 9 speed chain every 3K miles is just $7. That's just $14 a year for a rider logging significant miles (100 miles/week). A new cassette every 3 chains costs $20 a year on average. New chainrings perhaps $20 a year on average. That's a pittance at $50 a year assuming close to 5K miles annually.

A belt drive system will costs you thousands of dollars. It would take 40 years to spend as much on a conventional 9 speed.
coolminty wrote:
Dec 29 2019 3:17am
Heavy: Agreed. They are generally paired with an IGH which itself is heavy. Plus these are going on an already 30kg ebike. So I take this point as irrelevant unless you're talking about non-ebikes?
Not irrelevant. Lighter e-bikes are easier to carry up stairs, easier to lift onto rack mounts of cars and for service, and handle better on the road and on trails.
coolminty wrote:
Dec 29 2019 3:17am
Gear ratios: Very dependent on what you put on the back end. So a bit of a moot point. There's plenty of offerings to choose from so you're not locked in to a small range. & like you said. Most offerings in derailur format have way more range than necessary.
It's always better to have more rather than less range than necessary. A higher top gear is great when descending and a super low low helps keep you close to the 90 rpm band where most mid drives produce optimal power.
coolminty wrote:
Dec 29 2019 3:17am
Serviceability: What do you need to service? No grease. Generally tensioned correctly to last. Less derailments. Frames by design make them completely removalable if need be. They don't stretch as much(if at all?) over use like a chain does.
Likewise, standard chain drivetrains require minimal maintenance, typically just a quick wipe and oil after a few hundred miles.
coolminty wrote:
Dec 29 2019 3:17am
Noise: You must have a near perfect derailure drive line perfectly lubed day-in-day-out because mine definitely gives me enough chatter for it to be bothersome.

Also a chain can be used with an IGH driveline so you may want to be specific & mention derailures.
Wind noise is around 85 Db at 20 mph, and climbs to 95+ Db at 30+ mph. Modern chains are exceptionally silent. If you want to eliminate chain noise against the chain stay buy a protector for $10. Problem solved.

Belt drives are not worth the cost.

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