How to get more torque?

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laerciohj   10 mW

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How to get more torque?

Post by laerciohj » Aug 05 2019 2:37pm

Hello guys! New to the area. I'm talking to you through the automatic translator, weird things can come up.

I just built a Cyclone 3kW kit, but my current battery allows me to explore only 1.5kW of the kit.

My freewheel goes from 11T to 36T, 7v. My crankset is 44T for the engine and 36T for the freewheel. I would like to know if I gain more torque by placing another 22T crankset. I can't imagine the benefit of that.

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E-HP   100 kW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by E-HP » Aug 05 2019 3:20pm

laerciohj wrote:
Aug 05 2019 2:37pm
Hello guys! New to the area. I'm talking to you through the automatic translator, weird things can come up.

I just built a Cyclone 3kW kit, but my current battery allows me to explore only 1.5kW of the kit.

My freewheel goes from 11T to 36T, 7v. My crankset is 44T for the engine and 36T for the freewheel. I would like to know if I gain more torque by placing another 22T crankset. I can't imagine the benefit of that.
Yes, you can increase the effective torque at the rear contact patch by either increasing motor torque, or by increasing the final drive ratio between the motor and contact patch. The latter can be increased by either by lower gearing or by smaller wheel diameter. The amount/proportion of increase will be the ratio of the new gearing to the old gearing, or if changing wheel size, the circumference of the current wheel over the circumference of the new wheel.

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Drunkskunk   100 GW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by Drunkskunk » Aug 05 2019 5:23pm

Yes.

If you use the 22T instead of the 36T, you will have more than 1/3 more torque (+36%), but your speed will be more than 1/3 slower (-36%).
Buy the ticket, take the ride.
Monster Bike:http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=38667

flat tire   1 MW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by flat tire » Aug 05 2019 6:51pm

Cyclone 3k ultimately is not a very powerful motor. You will be disappointed if you want to GO FAST.

I'd actually recommend shifting into a HIGHER gear to extend the torque curve. Yeah you'll have more peak torque with lower gears but it will run out extremely early.

You can also increase phase current a good bit with a programmable controller, maybe to 200 amps or so and that will increase your peak torque without adding additional strain to the battery. But watch out, the motor already overheats easily. I've killed a bunch of them.

laerciohj   10 mW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by laerciohj » Aug 05 2019 11:14pm

I'm excited about the possibility!

E-HP and Drunkskunkl, thanks for the confirmations. I will implement a crankset between 22 and 26T and get more torque. As I will keep the 36T, I will still have the maximum speed of the set. I live in a neighborhood with steep slopes, letting normal people gasp as they walk by. Slopes greater than 10º. I can beat the hardest slope I've found here riding moderately at half the power of the cyclone engine, something practically impossible with my old 1.2kW rim 26 "hub kit. If I had the 3kW I would surely win downhill without pedaling. The bike with the kit weighs 35kg My weight is 95kg Total about 130kg A great job for this small motor on a slope.

flat tir, thanks for one more help in my studies. I want speeds below 31mph for traffic in the city. I want to replace the car with ebike. So I am willing to sacrifice speed for torque if need be. I think about converting a bike with a more powerful kit, cyclone 7.5kW or ETEK. Heavy motors with heavy batteries are not good choices for bicycles. Motorcycles have more suitable structures, but brake capacity is the main factor I consider.

But please tell me, what continuous current can I apply to this motor without endangering it? Do you think I can apply 50 or 60A at 84V without causing damage? I would certainly gain torque as well. I don't think about doing it now, I haven't reached 3kW yet.

flat tire   1 MW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by flat tire » Aug 06 2019 3:17pm

Cyclone 3k can do maybe 1500w continuous unless you live in an extremely cold climate.

laerciohj   10 mW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by laerciohj » Aug 06 2019 8:16pm

This information surprised me!

So would 3kW be peak? Will it operate briefly at this power (approximately how long?) and continuously maintain only half of it? With my current battery I am already experiencing the continuous power I will have, since I got 1.5kW still in my tests? If so this is really discouraging.

On the manufacturer's website it says that it is 1800W ~ 3000W.

"""1800-3000W 36-72V 320Nm Turbo power !!

Low noise !!

100Km / h 200 ~ 330rpm High speed !! (speed test base on Frontal area 0.3m ^ 2)"""

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/2chkit.html

When I saw this torque of 320Nm I was delighted. An ordinary car does not have as much torque. Ordinary cars are below 200Nm of touch (at least in my country). With just 100Nm of touch I should be able to win downhill quietly. But if this motor operates at 1500W continuous, its continuous torque would be 160Nm. Is correct?

Why would it be interesting for me to mount a 72V battery at 40A and get 3kW if it can't be maintained continuously?

If so, analyzing and relying on engine manufacturers' advertising is tricky.

Why Cyclone 3kW has more torque, 320Nm and Cyclone 18kW has less touch, only 150Nm? This is on the manufacturer's website. What to expect from Cyclone 7.5kW?

It is really confusing what the manufacturer says in the advertising.

I am very curious about these new doubts. Please help me!

lukashanak   1 W

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by lukashanak » Aug 07 2019 2:56am

laerciohj wrote:
Aug 06 2019 8:16pm
This information surprised me!

So would 3kW be peak? Will it operate briefly at this power (approximately how long?) and continuously maintain only half of it? With my current battery I am already experiencing the continuous power I will have, since I got 1.5kW still in my tests? If so this is really discouraging.

On the manufacturer's website it says that it is 1800W ~ 3000W.

"""1800-3000W 36-72V 320Nm Turbo power !!

Low noise !!

100Km / h 200 ~ 330rpm High speed !! (speed test base on Frontal area 0.3m ^ 2)"""

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/2chkit.html

When I saw this torque of 320Nm I was delighted. An ordinary car does not have as much torque. Ordinary cars are below 200Nm of touch (at least in my country). With just 100Nm of touch I should be able to win downhill quietly. But if this motor operates at 1500W continuous, its continuous torque would be 160Nm. Is correct?

Why would it be interesting for me to mount a 72V battery at 40A and get 3kW if it can't be maintained continuously?

If so, analyzing and relying on engine manufacturers' advertising is tricky.

Why Cyclone 3kW has more torque, 320Nm and Cyclone 18kW has less touch, only 150Nm? This is on the manufacturer's website. What to expect from Cyclone 7.5kW?

It is really confusing what the manufacturer says in the advertising.

I am very curious about these new doubts. Please help me!

Some people here goes 3kw cyclone 6kw peak...

I have 4kW cyclone (little wider motor) on my bike running 9kW peak. With cooling mod no problem 3km long peak... :-)
Cyclone 4kW mid drive + Nucular 12F + 21s VTC5A = 12kW of fun :twisted: :twisted:

laerciohj   10 mW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by laerciohj » Aug 07 2019 7:34am

6kW on a 3kW peak engine is impressive. As flat tire said about very cold places to avoid overheating, I was already imagining a way to cool and get more continuous power. If you know of discussions about this and can refer me I appreciate it.

One more question arose, who controls the duration of the peak current: the motor or the controller?

lukashanak   1 W

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by lukashanak » Aug 07 2019 8:14am

laerciohj wrote:
Aug 07 2019 7:34am
6kW on a 3kW peak engine is impressive. As flat tire said about very cold places to avoid overheating, I was already imagining a way to cool and get more continuous power. If you know of discussions about this and can refer me I appreciate it.

One more question arose, who controls the duration of the peak current: the motor or the controller?
All controls controller... :) I can hold full 10kW power until motor or controller overheats, then controller gives lower current. Both have temp sensors. And newer cyclone motors have 110°C temp fuse on halls. In colder weather I used my cyclone on this power level without cooling mod with sometimes lower power by heat limited by controller.

User Gman has it on his trike with 6kW.
4kW cyclone is almost same. Only a bit wider. 2cm i think. Need high rpm to not overheat.
My today ride, over 30°C here:
IMG_20190807_122755-1500x2000.jpg
IMG_20190807_122755-1500x2000.jpg (451.13 KiB) Viewed 1160 times
You can see 10kW peak.

Cyclone motors are very good for that price....
Cyclone 4kW mid drive + Nucular 12F + 21s VTC5A = 12kW of fun :twisted: :twisted:

laerciohj   10 mW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by laerciohj » Aug 07 2019 2:07pm

This information is encouraging. I am learning more and more from our conversation.

Peak 10kW certainly compromises the components of a simple bike. But it is tempting!

I was wondering ... You may need to look not for the maximum power of the motor, but for voltage, and especially the maximum current, since power is the relationship between voltage and current. First it is interesting to find the maximum voltage supported by the motor. With this we can determine the current required for a desired power. The main research is to find the maximum current because it is only the current that generates heat. The more current the more heating. The ideal test would be to subject the motor to a certain current that will keep it below 110ºC. If this motor supports 25A continuously, for example at 84V we have continuous power of 2.1kW without relevant heating. Am I right?

That would certainly give me the torque I'm interested in maintaining to beat long slopes common in my neighborhood.

What is the model of this onboard computer? Very interesting.
Last edited by laerciohj on Aug 07 2019 2:37pm, edited 1 time in total.

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   1 MW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Aug 07 2019 2:14pm

looks like Nucular controller and display:)
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

lukashanak   1 W

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by lukashanak » Aug 07 2019 2:52pm

Yes, its Nucular controller with display. Installed few day ago. Very nice peace of russian tech. :)
On my bike going with 18s lipo, 73,7V full charge, 150A battery and 250A phase setting. And less than 30kg weight.
With bike chain and derailleur. Chain on this is OK for cca 2000-3000km. So I can climb every hill that I dont fall back. What torque do you want? :)
IMG_20190413_191826.jpg
IMG_20190413_191826.jpg (472.75 KiB) Viewed 1113 times
Cyclone 4kW mid drive + Nucular 12F + 21s VTC5A = 12kW of fun :twisted: :twisted:

laerciohj   10 mW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by laerciohj » Aug 08 2019 7:36am

I believe I will have the necessary torque with the 22T crankset complement, which you confirmed at the beginning. Also, I haven't tested it with a 72V battery yet, which certainly allows more torque. I'm building this battery.

I have no skill with torque calculations yet. It would be great to have a torque gauge to install on the bike and monitor torque at every moment of the ride. That would give a great sense of touch without calculations. With a total weight of 130kg on a 10º slope, for example, to climb 10 km / h, I imagine it is possible to calculate the required torque.

When you said "250A phase" are you saying that it is possible to have up to 250A going through the motor ???

I see you increased your engine freewheel and decreased your crankset (I don't know if I'm speaking correctly, I hope you understand). I believe you sacrificed torque for more speed, right? Even so you climb hills. Your modification is awesome!

I am still finalizing the construction of my bike. It is foldable, I need a lot of creativity to put the battery in the middle without losing the folding function. For now it's in a box at the back.

My goal with this bike is just to go to work quietly.
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Tommm   10 kW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by Tommm » Aug 09 2019 2:59pm

lukashanak wrote:
Aug 07 2019 2:52pm
Yes, its Nucular controller with display. Installed few day ago. Very nice peace of russian tech. :)
On my bike going with 18s lipo, 73,7V full charge, 150A battery and 250A phase setting. And less than 30kg weight.
With bike chain and derailleur. Chain on this is OK for cca 2000-3000km. So I can climb every hill that I dont fall back. What torque do you want? :)
IMG_20190413_191826.jpg
Very good, big motor sprocket is the way to go for the cyclone. No point in putting insane torque on the rear wheel, the cogs and hub will just get destroyed. I only have 1:1.33 reduction myself to the rear wheel.

lukashanak   1 W

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by lukashanak » Aug 09 2019 4:21pm

Tommm wrote:
Aug 09 2019 2:59pm
lukashanak wrote:
Aug 07 2019 2:52pm
Yes, its Nucular controller with display. Installed few day ago. Very nice peace of russian tech. :)
On my bike going with 18s lipo, 73,7V full charge, 150A battery and 250A phase setting. And less than 30kg weight.
With bike chain and derailleur. Chain on this is OK for cca 2000-3000km. So I can climb every hill that I dont fall back. What torque do you want? :)
IMG_20190413_191826.jpg
Very good, big motor sprocket is the way to go for the cyclone. No point in putting insane torque on the rear wheel, the cogs and hub will just get destroyed. I only have 1:1.33 reduction myself to the rear wheel.
Yes. Problems with chain sliping are gone. And chain lasts more than 2000km. But I found a better way. Parts are on way to me. I will take off gearbox and change 1st stage to 219h chain 11T motor and 72T mid. And 11-50 cassette on rear. Gearbox with steel planet gears is just to loud... And unneeded weight. I think about 2kgs with freewheel. And much narrower motor. I think it will be super. :)
Cyclone 4kW mid drive + Nucular 12F + 21s VTC5A = 12kW of fun :twisted: :twisted:

flat tire   1 MW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by flat tire » Aug 09 2019 4:51pm

laerciohj wrote:
Aug 07 2019 2:07pm
The main research is to find the maximum current because it is only the current that generates heat.
Wrong. The motor's inefficiency generates the most heat. Doesn't matter how you get there. If you have 5kw input and 80% efficiency you necessarily have 1kw of heat to get rid of, and the motor doesn't care whether the power is coming high current / low voltage or the other way around.

laerciohj   10 mW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by laerciohj » Aug 09 2019 11:00pm

I understood. Efficiency should be considered as a factor for heating. That makes a lot of sense. So engine cooling is probably the best way to get more power for longer. Right?

laerciohj   10 mW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by laerciohj » Sep 03 2019 11:34pm

" lukashanak
I will take off gearbox and change 1st stage to 219h chain 11T motor and 72T mid. And 11-50 cassette on rear. Gearbox with steel planet gears is just to loud... And unneeded weight. I think about 2kgs with freewheel. And much narrower motor. I think it will be super. :) "

Hello! Can you explain your modification again? I could not fully understand (I am limited to the automatic translator). Did you change the internal engine ratio? In addition, it changed the ratchet to 11T in the engine and 72T in the crankset. I understood the cassette part, but talked about the engine gears. I suspect you removed the engine reduction by removing the planetary gears and are working the ratio externally at 11 to 72 or 6.5: 1. It is?

lukashanak   1 W

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by lukashanak » Sep 04 2019 12:37pm

laerciohj wrote:
Sep 03 2019 11:34pm
" lukashanak
I will take off gearbox and change 1st stage to 219h chain 11T motor and 72T mid. And 11-50 cassette on rear. Gearbox with steel planet gears is just to loud... And unneeded weight. I think about 2kgs with freewheel. And much narrower motor. I think it will be super. :) "

Hello! Can you explain your modification again? I could not fully understand (I am limited to the automatic translator). Did you change the internal engine ratio? In addition, it changed the ratchet to 11T in the engine and 72T in the crankset. I understood the cassette part, but talked about the engine gears. I suspect you removed the engine reduction by removing the planetary gears and are working the ratio externally at 11 to 72 or 6.5: 1. It is?
IMG_20190819_081729-1008x756.jpg
IMG_20190819_081729-1008x756.jpg (278.05 KiB) Viewed 782 times
Picture says more... :D
Cyclone 4kW mid drive + Nucular 12F + 21s VTC5A = 12kW of fun :twisted: :twisted:

laerciohj   10 mW

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Re: How to get more torque?

Post by laerciohj » Sep 08 2019 11:53am

Yes, I liked that. Having only two sprockets at the front makes the system simpler. I want to make this modification in search of torque on the 3kW motor. Did you modify the inside of Cyclone as well? If I get it right, you took the reduction gears out of it. That is the main doubt.

My current set is: 11-36T rear, 36-46T front, 14T engine. If I change the front stop to 36-90T is an exaggeration, will I have very low speed even using 11T in the rear? I imagine 90T will give great torque.

Your opinion is important to me, I appreciate your review.

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