Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 05 2019 6:11pm

aspencreek wrote:
Nov 05 2019 6:07pm
Interesting find dirk. Will be curious to see what the final prices / specs are on Segway versions of the Sur Ron. They list the x260 version with a 74 mile range! That'd be double what I'm averaging on my Sur Ron. If that's accurate I'll be buying at least a battery from Segway if not a whole bike.
Luna originally claimed the Light Bee had a range of 80 miles. The quote above states that the 60v version has a 1.8KW/h pack and 6KW peak motor which is identical to the Light Bee.
Last edited by 3DTOPO on Nov 05 2019 6:18pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Nov 05 2019 6:15pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 05 2019 6:11pm
aspencreek wrote:
Nov 05 2019 6:07pm
Interesting find dirk. Will be curious to see what the final prices / specs are on Segway versions of the Sur Ron. They list the x260 version with a 74 mile range! That'd be double what I'm averaging on my Sur Ron. If that's accurate I'll be buying at least a battery from Segway if not a whole bike.
Luna originally claimed the Light Bee had a range of 80 miles. The quote above states that the 60v version has a 1.8KW pack and 6kw peak motor which is identical to the Light Bee.
So 75-80 mile range as long as it is all downhill. :(

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Big_Lez » Nov 05 2019 6:32pm

Offroader wrote:
Nov 05 2019 4:23pm
Finally decided to order a shinko 241 18x3.00.

Like I've said, the 18x3.00 is way better than the 19x2.75" version of the shinko 241 that many I see are using here. The reason is the 3.00 is made for the rear and the 2.75 for the front. I have been through this with my other bike, the 3.00 version of the tire is worlds better than then 2.75".

The 3.00 has much longer knobs, has a much softer tread compound, easily much better traction for our light weight bikes.

The thing I always wondered about the 18x3.00 is the size, will the 18x3.00 shinko 241 be too small compared to the stock 19" tire and therefore throw off the geometry?

Well here is a shinko 241 3.00 next to a brand new Sur Ron stock 19" tire.

The stock Sur Ron 19" is ever so slightly larger than the shinko 241 18" 3.00. It is really damn close in size.

I'm thinking this may be the perfect tire for the rear of a Sur-Ron, longer lasting on paverment, soft compound, good grip, thick and long knobs. This tire in a 17x3.00 size on my other bike has been the best tire by far, great traction, good riding feel, long lasting, but not too long as the compound is soft.

What do you guys think, will you even notice the size difference when riding on this tire?
Don't think the size difference will be too noticable - let us know how you go with fitting the 18" to the 19" sur-ron rim!

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by sn0wchyld » Nov 05 2019 7:08pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 05 2019 5:59pm
dirkdiggler wrote:
Nov 05 2019 1:00pm
Sur Ron is actually in our ecosystem. We’re the largest shareholder of Sur Ron.
Unless they have a controlling share (> 50%) they are just a shareholder - doesn't make Sur Ron their company anymore than owing two shares of TSLA puts Tesla in "my ecosystem".

All they could do is threaten to sell their shares, and Sur Ron would probably be like fine see if we care.

dirkdiggler wrote:
Nov 05 2019 1:00pm
While the X160 and X260 are based on the Sur Ron platform, Segway did more than slap a few stickers on them. Julie explained that the company re-engineered the design in critical places to make the bikes more robust and improve earlier issues with the original design.
Without mentioning any specifics, it just sounds like marketing smoke and mirrors to me.
a big +1 from me on marketing wank. 'we re-engineered some parts' is classic 'we did just enough to get around exclusivity contracts, and call it improvements to justify jacking the price'. I wouldn't be surprised if they count the new paint job as part of that (though I do like the 2 tone frame). Not seeing $1400 in improvements though, and range claims sound like BS to me given batteries are the same capacity.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 05 2019 7:33pm

sn0wchyld wrote:
Nov 05 2019 7:08pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 05 2019 5:59pm
dirkdiggler wrote:
Nov 05 2019 1:00pm
Sur Ron is actually in our ecosystem. We’re the largest shareholder of Sur Ron.
Unless they have a controlling share (> 50%) they are just a shareholder - doesn't make Sur Ron their company anymore than owing two shares of TSLA puts Tesla in "my ecosystem".

All they could do is threaten to sell their shares, and Sur Ron would probably be like fine see if we care.

dirkdiggler wrote:
Nov 05 2019 1:00pm
While the X160 and X260 are based on the Sur Ron platform, Segway did more than slap a few stickers on them. Julie explained that the company re-engineered the design in critical places to make the bikes more robust and improve earlier issues with the original design.
Without mentioning any specifics, it just sounds like marketing smoke and mirrors to me.
a big +1 from me on marketing wank. 'we re-engineered some parts' is classic 'we did just enough to get around exclusivity contracts, and call it improvements to justify jacking the price'. I wouldn't be surprised if they count the new paint job as part of that (though I do like the 2 tone frame). Not seeing $1400 in improvements though, and range claims sound like BS to me given batteries are the same capacity.
No doubt. Based on the wording, I suspect the change that "make(s) the bikes more robust and improve earlier issues with the original design" is the X Controller as it was not part of the original design...

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Nov 05 2019 7:35pm

bigger picture is breaking out of exclusive usa distribution channel.. segway is a global ev brand.. luna, not so much.. so this is more great news to get the masses riding EVs..

here's another segway prototype mobility device;)

Image
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by aspencreek » Nov 06 2019 8:34am

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Nov 05 2019 7:35pm
bigger picture is breaking out of exclusive usa distribution channel.. segway is a global ev brand.. luna, not so much.. so this is more great news to get the masses riding EVs..
Very true. I would imagine most potential customers would have the same experience I did. Saw the Light Bee bike and really wanted it but worried because I'd never heard of Sur Ron or Luna and didn't know anything at all about the size or legitimacy of those companies. But just about everybody has heard of Segway so that would instantly remove one of the biggest buying concerns.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by racingame » Nov 06 2019 7:20pm

Marketing gimmicks aside, I read 3000$ for the X160 and 4500$ for the X260, and additional discount for preorders. This fact alone will put Luna monopoly in sever danger. I guess Chinese people don't care too much about loyalty: when the big fish shows up asking for 10k+ units, they will be more than pleased to say goodbye to the old distributor. :lol:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 06 2019 7:28pm

racingame wrote:
Nov 06 2019 7:20pm
Marketing gimmicks aside, I read 3000$ for the X160 and 4500$ for the X260, and additional discount for preorders. This fact alone will put Luna monopoly in sever danger. I guess Chinese people don't care too much about loyalty: when the big fish shows up asking for 10k+ units, they will be more than pleased to say goodbye to the old distributor. :lol:
No need to be racist. Like American's have never broken a contract. :roll:

How do you know that the time with Luna's exclusivity isn't up or will be up soon? I very much doubt that it was forever - it was probably renewable per year at Sur Ron's discretion. Besides that, there may have been an exit clause into the contract.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 06 2019 7:36pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Nov 05 2019 7:35pm
bigger picture is breaking out of exclusive usa distribution channel.. segway is a global ev brand.. luna, not so much.. so this is more great news to get the masses riding EVs..
Good point.
efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Nov 05 2019 7:35pm
here's another segway prototype mobility device;)

Image
Now that is something I would buy - if it was fully electric. Being a hybrid is a start I guess, but I would buy into the option of purely electric even if the range was severely limited compared to the hybrid model. I'll pass on a hybrid.

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 06 2019 7:59pm

efMX Trials Electric Freeride wrote:
Nov 05 2019 7:35pm
here's another segway prototype mobility device;)

Image
P.S. if the entire drivetrain was electric, it wouldn't be bad to have a small (eg 50-80cc) generator on board that could recharge the battery over the course of several hours. That way you could drive to a destination, explore, fish, bike, hunt, whatever, then have capacity to return home. That could easily double the range and only needed when more range than a pack is needed.

But as it is, the drive train is a 1000cc engine, and it appears that the primary function of the electric motor is to increase torque.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by dirkdiggler » Nov 06 2019 8:12pm

racingame wrote:
Nov 06 2019 7:20pm
Marketing gimmicks aside, I read 3000$ for the X160 and 4500$ for the X260, and additional discount for preorders. This fact alone will put Luna monopoly in sever danger. I guess Chinese people don't care too much about loyalty: when the big fish shows up asking for 10k+ units, they will be more than pleased to say goodbye to the old distributor. :lol:
Those prices are much higher than Luna unfortunately. BTW, Luna now has a Xmas edition for $3600, compared to $4.5k for the Segway. The Lunacycle version has known components, unlike the Segway which appears to have the old inverted Fast Ace fork and older controller.
I would love to see these mass produced to drive the price even lower. There still isn't any competition for the Sur-ron. The price point now is still cheaper than anything comparable.
Still can't wait for the storm bee pricing. I'll buy one of those if the price is right, otherwise I am getting the Xmas edition.

Here are pictures of the Lunacycle cane creek headset box. They included another part for the lower that I should have taken a picture of. Just in case you want to by pass Lunacycle. Again this is only the top headset!
20191106_180742-320x640.jpg
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Jasonjm » Nov 07 2019 8:44am

Offroader did that shinko 3 inch x 18 tire fit on thr stock sur Ron rim? No rubbing on the sides against frame?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by racingame » Nov 07 2019 2:43pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 06 2019 7:28pm
No need to be racist. Like American's have never broken a contract. :roll:
My comment was written in a humorous tone, so I'm sorry if you took it too much seriously, as of course there good and bad examples of companies behaviour in every country.

Also I'm not really condamning what they are doing, since it's just the logical path any business would take if they get the change, to seek for better-known brands with higher visibility and bigger resources for expanding the target audience of your products. In the end, the one who really wins is the consumer, since the prices get lowered. :wink: My guess is that they are trying to replicate what they already did in Europe, which is to find an existing big distributor of vehicles with a large sales network like KSR.
dirkdiggler wrote:
Nov 06 2019 8:12pm
Those prices are much higher than Luna unfortunately. BTW, Luna now has a Xmas edition for $3600, compared to $4.5k for the Segway.
I really don't know what Luna prices usually are, I just checked yesterday out of curiosity for a comparison. From my understanding the Xmas Edition is discounted because it's a preorder. And if I were to preorder a Segway X160 for let's say 2700$, and then buy the X controller from Luna for 445$, it would still be much cheaper. Then of course, I could also resell my normal controller to even get back something more. Anyway, there are other things to take into consideration when buying a vehicle, like how good is the customer care. I really don't know anything about Segway in USA, but I guess their products are also sold by very large chain stores which provide prompt assistance in case you got some problems, a service that is missing when buying stuff online.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by skyungjae » Nov 07 2019 3:36pm

racingame wrote:
Nov 07 2019 2:43pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 06 2019 7:28pm
No need to be racist. Like American's have never broken a contract. :roll:
My comment was written in a humorous tone, so I'm sorry if you took it too much seriously, as of course there good and bad examples of companies behaviour in every country.

Also I'm not really condamning what they are doing, since it's just the logical path any business would take if they get the change, to seek for better-known brands with higher visibility and bigger resources for expanding the target audience of your products. In the end, the one who really wins is the consumer, since the prices get lowered. :wink: My guess is that they are trying to replicate what they already did in Europe, which is to find an existing big distributor of vehicles with a large sales network like KSR.
dirkdiggler wrote:
Nov 06 2019 8:12pm
Those prices are much higher than Luna unfortunately. BTW, Luna now has a Xmas edition for $3600, compared to $4.5k for the Segway.
I really don't know what Luna prices usually are, I just checked yesterday out of curiosity for a comparison. From my understanding the Xmas Edition is discounted because it's a preorder. And if I were to preorder a Segway X160 for let's say 2700$, and then buy the X controller from Luna for 445$, it would still be much cheaper. Then of course, I could also resell my normal controller to even get back something more. Anyway, there are other things to take into consideration when buying a vehicle, like how good is the customer care. I really don't know anything about Segway in USA, but I guess their products are also sold by very large chain stores which provide prompt assistance in case you got some problems, a service that is missing when buying stuff online.
I think Segway can afford to sell at a higher price point. According to one of the articles I read, they plan to have them at various dealers/showrooms. Also keep in mind that they have service centers and will probably offer some sort of warranty. Luna is just one store in El Segundo, California. Sure, they can ship anywhere, but it's different than being able to walk into a Segway re-seller that has them on display, sit on one, and take one home the same day.

I also imagine Segway will have more resources with outdoor tour companies which will be able to rent them out. This will also give the bike more exposure leading to more sales. Of course, this will also help Luna with their sales. A lot of people will be willing to forego warranty and service to save a grand.

This is not the first time something like this has happened. Dodge Stealth/Mitsubishi 3000GT; Plyouth Laser/Mitsu Eclipse/Eagle Talon; Honda Passport/Isuzu Rodeo; Mazda Miata/Fiat 124 spider; Subaru BRZ/Scion(Toyota) FT86; etc... For bikes, Kawasaki and Suzuki did a lot of platform sharing.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Grantmac » Nov 07 2019 3:52pm

I think the Segway branded ones are simply exercising the ability to charge ignorant people more money, a policy I'm okay with for luxury items.

That is provided they aren't cutting Luna out of the loop.

If the motor is the same in the X160 then it would make a good base for a modified build since all the downgrades would be replaced anyways.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 07 2019 5:32pm

racingame wrote:
Nov 07 2019 2:43pm
My comment was written in a humorous tone, so I'm sorry if you took it too much seriously, as of course there good and bad examples of companies behaviour in every country.
In that case, I think it would have been better if you had written “Sur Ron” in place of “Chinese people”. :wink:
racingame wrote:
Nov 07 2019 2:43pm
Also I'm not really condamning what they are doing, since it's just the logical path any business would take if they get the change, to seek for better-known brands with higher visibility and bigger resources for expanding the target audience of your products.
Again, how do you know Luna’s contract hasn’t expired? How do you know there isn’t an exit clause in the contract?

dirkdiggler wrote:
Nov 06 2019 8:12pm
And if I were to preorder a Segway X160 for let's say 2700$, and then buy the X controller from Luna for 445$, it would still be much cheaper.
The X160 is the 48-volt version. It would not at all be the same as the 60-volt version with X Controller. Helps to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
dirkdiggler wrote:
Nov 06 2019 8:12pm
Anyway, there are other things to take into consideration when buying a vehicle, like how good is the customer care.
I loathe Luna, but apparently they have a pretty good track record supporting the Sur Ron. Going with a bigger company does not always translate into better support - in fact quite the opposite of that is common.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by dirkdiggler » Nov 07 2019 7:36pm

The other thing is smaller 17" wheels with the x160 and single crown fork. Charger, sprocket and chain will also be different. You might want to upgrade everything and have it be cheaper, but you need to compare to the $5k Segway version.
They released rehashed info on the Storm bee today, but no pricing which is the only thing I was interested in hearing. Bummer. Again Electrek has the write up.https://electrek.co/2019/11/07/sur-ron- ... cle-eicma/

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Mithion » Nov 07 2019 8:26pm

Curious if someone can recommend how to customize the Sur Ron as the best street riding bike it could possibly be?

My first thoughts are the Super Moto conversion, the street legal kit with the lights and mirrors etc and the belt drive conversion.

What about forks, rear shock?

Maybe seat?

Thanks for the help

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Big_Lez » Nov 07 2019 9:19pm

Mithion wrote:
Nov 07 2019 8:26pm
Curious if someone can recommend how to customize the Sur Ron as the best street riding bike it could possibly be?

My first thoughts are the Super Moto conversion, the street legal kit with the lights and mirrors etc and the belt drive conversion.

What about forks, rear shock?

Maybe seat?

Thanks for the help
Supermoto tyres (after all the street legal kit like mirrors, lights etc...) would be the single biggest upgrade for street riding - suspension will be fine, seat should be ok, chain should be ok if the noise isn't too bothersome.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 07 2019 9:55pm

Big_Lez wrote:
Nov 07 2019 9:19pm
Mithion wrote:
Nov 07 2019 8:26pm
Curious if someone can recommend how to customize the Sur Ron as the best street riding bike it could possibly be?

My first thoughts are the Super Moto conversion, the street legal kit with the lights and mirrors etc and the belt drive conversion.

What about forks, rear shock?

Maybe seat?

Thanks for the help
Supermoto tyres (after all the street legal kit like mirrors, lights etc...) would be the single biggest upgrade for street riding - suspension will be fine, seat should be ok, chain should be ok if the noise isn't too bothersome.
Not that I ride mine on the street, but if I did, after supermoto kit I think the best upgrade would be the belt drive.

The standard seat pretty much sucks, but I don't know of anyone selling better ones? I know Luna had some custom made for them, but not selling them as far as I am aware.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Offroader » Nov 07 2019 11:59pm

Jasonjm wrote:
Nov 07 2019 8:44am
Offroader did that shinko 3 inch x 18 tire fit on thr stock sur Ron rim? No rubbing on the sides against frame?

Good quesiton, I didn't actually try and see if it would fit. Considering a 3.5" shinko 241 tire just about fits, this should fit no problem.

It doesn't seem to be all that much wider than the stock tire also.

I liked the stock Sur-Ron tire but it wore out way too quickly in the rear. Maybe 400-500 miles to completely wear down. The stock tire also seemed to break traction easily, I believe it just was not wide enough for good traction and I was easily always spinning it off road and ripping up grass and dirt. The shinko 241 size 2.75 tires are not designed for the rear or rear traction and are designed for the front and they have harder tread compound and not as deep knobs.

The shinko 241 3.00 size tires I found offered really good traction in the rear. I used a 17x3.00 241 tire on my 8 KW hub motor bike and it had very good traction off-road. It is yet to be seen how my 18x3.00 tire holds traction on my mid drive Sur-ron. I believe it should hold up really well considering it is wider, designed for rear traction, soft compound and long knobs. I run about 12 PSI in it also to help with the traction.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Big_Lez » Nov 08 2019 12:16am

Offroader wrote:
Nov 07 2019 11:59pm
Jasonjm wrote:
Nov 07 2019 8:44am
Offroader did that shinko 3 inch x 18 tire fit on thr stock sur Ron rim? No rubbing on the sides against frame?

Good quesiton, I didn't actually try and see if it would fit. Considering a 3.5" shinko 241 tire just about fits, this should fit no problem.

It doesn't seem to be all that much wider than the stock tire also.

I liked the stock Sur-Ron tire but it wore out way too quickly in the rear. Maybe 400-500 miles to completely wear down. The stock tire also seemed to break traction easily, I believe it just was not wide enough for good traction and I was easily always spinning it off road and ripping up grass and dirt. The shinko 241 size 2.75 tires are not designed for the rear or rear traction and are designed for the front and they have harder tread compound and not as deep knobs.

The shinko 241 3.00 size tires I found offered really good traction in the rear. I used a 17x3.00 241 tire on my 8 KW hub motor bike and it had very good traction off-road. It is yet to be seen how my 18x3.00 tire holds traction on my mid drive Sur-ron. I believe it should hold up really well considering it is wider, designed for rear traction, soft compound and long knobs. I run about 12 PSI in it also to help with the traction.
I'm more thinking how it is going to go fitting the 18" tyre on a 19" rim - can't wait to hear how you go though - if so the 3.0 x 18" will be my next rear tyre.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by fechter » Nov 08 2019 10:21am

Big_Lez wrote:
Nov 08 2019 12:16am
I'm more thinking how it is going to go fitting the 18" tyre on a 19" rim - can't wait to hear how you go though - if so the 3.0 x 18" will be my next rear tyre.
It's going to take a new rim and spokes. A slightly lower rear end will help with the steering angle, which I find to be a bit steep. There seems to be a much wider selection of tires in 18" vs. 19".
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Nov 08 2019 2:21pm

Big_Lez wrote:
Nov 08 2019 12:16am
Offroader wrote:
Nov 07 2019 11:59pm
Jasonjm wrote:
Nov 07 2019 8:44am
Offroader did that shinko 3 inch x 18 tire fit on thr stock sur Ron rim? No rubbing on the sides against frame?

Good quesiton, I didn't actually try and see if it would fit. Considering a 3.5" shinko 241 tire just about fits, this should fit no problem.

It doesn't seem to be all that much wider than the stock tire also.

I liked the stock Sur-Ron tire but it wore out way too quickly in the rear. Maybe 400-500 miles to completely wear down. The stock tire also seemed to break traction easily, I believe it just was not wide enough for good traction and I was easily always spinning it off road and ripping up grass and dirt. The shinko 241 size 2.75 tires are not designed for the rear or rear traction and are designed for the front and they have harder tread compound and not as deep knobs.

The shinko 241 3.00 size tires I found offered really good traction in the rear. I used a 17x3.00 241 tire on my 8 KW hub motor bike and it had very good traction off-road. It is yet to be seen how my 18x3.00 tire holds traction on my mid drive Sur-ron. I believe it should hold up really well considering it is wider, designed for rear traction, soft compound and long knobs. I run about 12 PSI in it also to help with the traction.
I'm more thinking how it is going to go fitting the 18" tyre on a 19" rim - can't wait to hear how you go though - if so the 3.0 x 18" will be my next rear tyre.
Off road will have to re-lace with an 18 x 1.40 or 18x1.60 rim.

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