MXUS 3000 Hub Motor - V1 V2 V3

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Cowardlyduck   100 MW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Jul 27 2015 2:47am

Why don't you try using a Multimeter to test the voltage across the wires first. For reference you could compare to another controller if you have one, but generally speaking you don't want to connect 2 wires both with full pack voltage.

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Jul 27 2015 6:05am

Alright, sorry to do this to you MXUS fanboys, but I think I'm gonna switch camps and look at the 1500W Leaf Motor instead.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 30&t=66489

For my purposes it just makes a lot more sense, with the main reasons being:
-Lower weight
-Lower cost
-Better fit for the Adaptto Mini-E
-Longer range - due to lower weight and less cogging
-Same efficiency
-Slightly better build quality (mainly on the windings)
-Coming from the HS4080, it's about the same performance...for less weight (and cost)

Thanks for all the input/help you guy's gave...with the main take away point being I now know the best winding for the Leaf Motor will likely be the 4 turn. :)

Cheers
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korpin   10 kW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by korpin » Jul 27 2015 11:46am

I am building a revolution with a 5T mxus at 110 volts and 45 max amps you guys think the stock phase wires are adequate? cooling holes needed?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by cwah » Jul 27 2015 2:33pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:Why don't you try using a Multimeter to test the voltage across the wires first. For reference you could compare to another controller if you have one, but generally speaking you don't want to connect 2 wires both with full pack voltage.

Cheers
Checking voltage is going to be random if I don't know what to check... i already know I'll find 5v, 0v and battery voltage...

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korpin   10 kW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by korpin » Jul 29 2015 10:05am

thanks e-trike! connecting bigger wires to the motor phase wires already extending out is what we were planning on doing

here is another question: do any of you guys know the temperature sensor limit where it turns off motor?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jul 29 2015 10:20am

korpin wrote:thanks e-trike! connecting bigger wires to the motor phase wires already extending out is what we were planning on doing

here is another question: do any of you guys know the temperature sensor limit where it turns off motor?
The temp sensor only works if you connect it to a Cycle Analyst V3 and then program the CA to roll-back the current at a specific reading. icecube57 laid out the programming here:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 0#p1013300
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korpin   10 kW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by korpin » Jul 29 2015 1:49pm

teslanv wrote:
The temp sensor only works if you connect it to a Cycle Analyst V3 and then program the CA to roll-back the current at a specific reading. icecube57 laid out the programming here:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 0#p1013300
thanks!

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by markz » Jul 29 2015 3:06pm

eTrike wrote:@korpin Based upon ebikes.ca sim testing (using average values of 4T and 6T) and user reviews I think you should be fine at that peak power. Upgrading phases to ~6" outside of axle should alleviate potential concerns, but your phase amp info from other thread is within limits.

From Teslanv post a few pages back:

5T (extrapolated from other motor data and ratio of strands of copper in the windings) :
Max. Continuous Phase Current: 35A
Overheat in 10 minutes: 54A
Overheat in 60 seconds: 154A

He noted that this is for non-ventilated motor and ebikes.ca info, so overheating time should be considerably longer in the real world.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... A#p1062179

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jul 29 2015 9:17pm

Heads up... The MXUS 4505_V2 (5T) is now on the ebikes.ca simulator.
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Doctorbass » Jul 29 2015 9:50pm

teslanv wrote:Heads up... The MXUS 4505_V2 (5T) is now on the ebikes.ca simulator.
It is amazing how it outperform the old 5305 !! I simulated those for fun and the MXUS is way higher performance!

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markz   100 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by markz » Jul 29 2015 10:21pm

Yes they have 3,4,5 and 6T

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Rix » Jul 29 2015 10:44pm

teslanv wrote:Heads up... The MXUS 4505_V2 (5T) is now on the ebikes.ca simulator.
That's very interesting, will check it out. Justin is a busy man these days and am happy he still does the simulator runs and posts the data.

markz   100 GW

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by markz » Jul 29 2015 11:34pm

OK I've been playing around with the simulator, 3T compared to 6T.
I see how the torque line can match, upping the controller amps and changing the diameter of the wheel. That makes a lot of sense now.

However I have a fixed controller, and a fixed motor (fixed = factors you cant change), and the only factors I can change are the battery and wheel. Which is my case.
The battery I can have increased voltage to increase speed. Increase amps to increase torque, I guess that would be on the phase, and changed in the controller. Is anyone putting 242A to the phase? Can the Lyen 18fet handle 242A on the phase for 60seconds?
3T:
Max. Continuous Phase Current: 55A
Overheat in 10 Minutes: 85A
Overheat in 60 seconds: 242A

4T:
Max. Continuous Phase Current: 42.6A
Overheat in 10 minutes: 66A
Overheat in 60 seconds: 186A

5T (extrapolated from other motor data and ratio of strands of copper in the windings) :
Max. Continuous Phase Current: 35A
Overheat in 10 minutes: 54A
Overheat in 60 seconds: 154A

6T:
Max. Continuous Phase Current: 30.3A
Overheat in 10 minutes: 47A
Overheat in 60 seconds: 132A

Generic Winding Phase Current Limits per strand:
Max. Continuous Phase Current: 2.84A per strand
Overheat in 10 minutes: 4.4A per strand
Overheat in 60 seconds: 12.4A per strand
The wheel size difference does not show up on the graph in terms of torque, but the speed changes I see.
Efficiency seems to be 6% difference, until 28km/h when it reaches 10% diff. The higher eff is 6T.

This efficiency leads me to think the 6T is better then the 3T, but the above quote prooves me wrong.

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jul 29 2015 11:47pm

markz wrote:OK I've been playing around with the simulator, 3T compared to 6T.
I see how the torque line can match, upping the controller amps and changing the diameter of the wheel. That makes a lot of sense now.

However I have a fixed controller, and a fixed motor (fixed = factors you cant change), and the only factors I can change are the battery and wheel. Which is my case.
The battery I can have increased voltage to increase speed. Increase amps to increase torque, I guess that would be on the phase, and changed in the controller. Is anyone putting 242A to the phase? Can the Lyen 18fet handle 242A on the phase for 60seconds?

The wheel size difference does not show up on the graph in terms of torque, but the speed changes I see.
Efficiency seems to be 6% difference, until 28km/h when it reaches 10% diff. The higher eff is 6T.

This efficiency leads me to think the 6T is better then the 3T, but the above quote prooves me wrong.
What size tire would you prefer and what top speed are you shooting for?

A Smaller wheel will result in greater acceleration and climbing ability, but a larger wheel will generally provide for a better ride experience. A higher Kv motor (3T) will be more efficient in a small diameter tire and faster overall, while a 6T motor can handle larger tires like a fat bike tire much better without overheating, and provide greater overall torque and require less current to do so.
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by ewinters » Jul 30 2015 4:04pm

Has anyone tried to fit small washers under the side covers to allow the water a way out? Or is it better to leave it as stock and open once in a while?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jul 30 2015 10:22pm

ewinters wrote:Has anyone tried to fit small washers under the side covers to allow the water a way out? Or is it better to leave it as stock and open once in a while?
Pull the covers and drill some 1/4" diameter weep holes at 120 degrees apart right at the inside lip of the cover. This will let out any moisture that might find its way into the motor.
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by magna_503 » Jul 31 2015 8:41pm

Does anyone know how many poles the 4t has?
thanks

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Rix » Aug 01 2015 12:01am

magna_503 wrote:Does anyone know how many poles the 4t has?
thanks
I think the Pole count is 23. I had mine apart, and didn't count them. But the magnets were small and thin like on the TC4080 I had apart and I did count 46 on that motor.

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by John in CR » Aug 01 2015 2:25am

teslanv wrote:A higher Kv motor (3T) will be more efficient in a small diameter tire and faster overall, while a 6T motor can handle larger tires like a fat bike tire much better without overheating, and provide greater overall torque and require less current to do so.
Back to statements of pure myth again, f'ing ridiculous. The poster even said voltage and current were variable.

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by BoomerChomsi » Aug 01 2015 2:45am

Rix wrote:
magna_503 wrote:Does anyone know how many poles the 4t has?
thanks
I think the Pole count is 23. I had mine apart, and didn't count them. But the magnets were small and thin like on the TC4080 I had apart and I did count 46 on that motor.
Yeah I tink also 24, I have CA3 hooked up to one of hall sensors for speed reading.
It almost accurate as gps speed...
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Rix » Aug 01 2015 3:53am

BoomerChomsi wrote:
Rix wrote:
magna_503 wrote:Does anyone know how many poles the 4t has?
thanks
I think the Pole count is 23. I had mine apart, and didn't count them. But the magnets were small and thin like on the TC4080 I had apart and I did count 46 on that motor.
Yeah I tink also 24, I have CA3 hooked up to one of hall sensors for speed reading.
It almost accurate as gps speed...
Okay so there must be 48 magnets, good to know.

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Rix » Aug 01 2015 4:03am

John in CR wrote:
teslanv wrote:A higher Kv motor (3T) will be more efficient in a small diameter tire and faster overall, while a 6T motor can handle larger tires like a fat bike tire much better without overheating, and provide greater overall torque and require less current to do so.
Back to statements of pure myth again, f'ing ridiculous. The poster even said voltage and current were variable.
I know where you are going with this John. I think the perspective that Telsa was referring to was based on fixed DC in put and the inherent traits of how different winds produce the work output. There really is no High speed wind or high torque wind when you consider manipulating volts/amps input for each wind. Example is a 3T motor running 50volts @ 100 amps DC will be close to the same performance as a 6T running 100volts @ 50amps, given the same copper fill, even thought the 6t 100v 50a combo will have slightly more output due the slight efficiency increase afforded by higher volts. Back to Tesla's comment, unless I misunderstood, I think that's what he was referring to.

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Aug 01 2015 7:32am

I know exactly what myth John is referring to. And I have no desire to hash out its nuances again.
Besides, we now have Justin's dyno tests complete and four different windings of the MXUS motors listed on the simulator.
I encourage everyone interested in the MXUS motors to learn how to use the simulator, and run some different scenarios with high voltage, low voltage, high and low current, different tire diameters and different windings of the MXUS 450X series and come to your own conclusions.
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by litespeed » Aug 01 2015 8:09am

Well I can certainly say in all certainty that the 6T is super efficient! I've been able to go 35 miles multiple times using only 9 to 11 amps of capacity averaging 20 to 23 mph. I have a 24s 22.5 amp pack! Top speed is only 38 mph with a 17" Shinko and my bike is about 110 lbs but I got to say I really like it.

I really need some more top end (45 to 50 mph) but other than that this is the perfect set up.

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Aug 01 2015 8:40am

Here are two different simulations of the MXUS 45mm Motors:

The first simulation is a MXUS 4504 (3T or 12Kv) winding in a 28" Tire, with a 36V battery and an 80A Controller.
The second simulation is a MXUS 4506 (6T or 6Kv) winding in the same 28" tire, but with twice the voltage and 1/2 the current.
All other parameters are identical.
In therory, the Myth says that these should be identical performing systems.

Image

Image

You will notice that the 6T winding has a higher max speed than the 3T, so if I reduce the throttle down to 91% on the 6T to match the max speed of the 3T set-up, I get the following:

Image

And here are both 3T and 6T windings overlaid:
Image

Conclusion: While a 3T MXUS may be able to run fine in a 28" (Fat) Tire without overheating, it is NOT as efficient as a 6T with twice the voltage and 1/2 the current.
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