MXUS 3000 Hub Motor - V1 V2 V3

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Allex » Jan 26 2015 2:04am

Just make a search on PTFE cable on ebay. They have thin teflon coating

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jan 26 2015 11:41am

Here is a Speed and Torque Calculator.
Image
MXUS 3000W Calculator.xls
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by \/ampa » Jan 26 2015 12:03pm

Very nice calculator.
But the heat calculation looks too high i think.
The winding resistance is for 1 of the 3 phases i guess?
Is this kind of motor driven like nr.1 phase full amps while nr.2 phase is 0A and the other only half the amps? :|
So maybe the 0.128Ohm from the 4-turn have to be divided by 3 or 2 or inbetween to calculate the heat generated?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jan 26 2015 12:29pm

\/ampa wrote:Very nice calculator.
But the heat calculation looks too high i think.
The winding resistance is for 1 of the 3 phases i guess?
Is this kind of motor driven like nr.1 phase full amps while nr.2 phase is 0A and the other only half the amps? :|
So maybe the 0.128Ohm from the 4-turn have to be divided by 3 or 2 or inbetween to calculate the heat generated?
Good question.

I used the formula "Current squared x Resistance" and the resistance is a single Phase to phase resistance. Watts of Heat are calculated based on either Max. Phase Amps or Spec Phase Amps, and the resistance of a pair of phase wires.

Do I have that correct, or do I need to derate the resistance since a phase set is only "ON" for part of the time?
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by \/ampa » Jan 26 2015 1:05pm

teslanv wrote:
\/ampa wrote:Very nice calculator.
But the heat calculation looks too high i think.
The winding resistance is for 1 of the 3 phases i guess?
Is this kind of motor driven like nr.1 phase full amps while nr.2 phase is 0A and the other only half the amps? :|
So maybe the 0.128Ohm from the 4-turn have to be divided by 3 or 2 or inbetween to calculate the heat generated?
Good question.

I used the formula "Current squared x Resistance" and the resistance is a single Phase to phase resistance. Watts of Heat are calculated based on either Max. Phase Amps or Spec Phase Amps, and the resistance of a pair of phase wires.

Do I have that correct, or do I need to derate the resistance since a phase set is only "ON" for part of the time?
According to this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAY5JInyHXY#t=6m20s
There is at any given time in the motor windings with squarewave controller nr.1 phase +50A while nr.2 phase have -50A and nr.3 phase 0A
So i guess the winding resistance is two-thirds or half for heat calculation.

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jan 26 2015 1:42pm

OK. I did a test on the ebikes.ca simulator with a Nine C 3004 Motor.

Spec shows Phase resistance of 0.082 Ohms.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/m ... 004rc.html

I ran a simulation (see screen shot below), and came up with a peak power draw of 1599W from the battery, and it gave the motor 1273W of power, for a net loss of 326 Watts (Waste/Inefficiency).

It also notes the Motor Amps (Phase Current?) at 44.1A

If I do the math on that one, I come up with 44.1^2 x 0.082 = 159 Watts of Heat. So this is telling me the Calculation for waste Heat is either low, or there are other major inefficiencies that are also contributing to power loss besides the resistance of the phases.

Anyone have any insights they can share?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by \/ampa » Jan 26 2015 1:54pm

The ebike simulator also calculates the controller losses + wind and rolling resistance.

I think we have first to determine what phase current rating for a controller means.
Is it the average amps flowing in all 3 phase wires over 1 secound or what ever?
Or is it the max. flowing in 1 (or 2) phase wire at any time?
Maybe something other?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by arkmundi » Jan 26 2015 1:55pm

teslanv wrote:OK. I did a test on the ebikes.ca simulator with a Nine C 3004 Motor.
Is that the motor closest to the MXUS 3000 on his simulator? And what would it take to get Justin to add in the MXUS line of motors to the simulator?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Stevil_Knevil » Jan 26 2015 2:14pm

Just need to ask Justin, 'Please?' then send him two motors. One for destructive testing -- and the other for future reference.

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

See-> FAQ 'Can you add motor XXX or YYY to the list?'
Doing a full characterization of a hub motor takes a lot of our time and also requires destructive testing to understand the thermal limits. To add a new motor we require a) that it is readily available as a motor only and without an integrated controller (so no BionX), and b) that we are given for keeping two samples of said motor, one for destructive test and the other to keep on hand as reference should we ever need to repeat tests, and c) that it is sufficiently popular amongst DIY ebike conversions to be of value to have listed.
These motors will undoubtedly tick the the 'c' box.
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by arkmundi » Jan 26 2015 2:17pm

Maybe the world-wide community would be willing to pitch in for those two motors, including the company providing at-cost no-markup set of motors?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jan 26 2015 2:19pm

arkmundi wrote: Is that the motor closest to the MXUS 3000 on his simulator? And what would it take to get Justin to add in the MXUS line of motors to the simulator?
Not really the closest motor to the MXUS 3000W. The CLyte TC40100 would be closer [40mm Magnet, 100kph speed (higher Kv)]
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/m ... 00r26.html

Swapping the motor to the TC40100 nets nearly identical results at the peak power point on the chart.
44.2 Motor Amps, 1594 Watts Battery, 1282 Watts Motor, 312 Watts total system Waste.
Phase wire resistance on the TC40100 is 0.07 so 44.2^2x.07 = 136.7 Watts of Phase resistance Loss.
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jan 26 2015 2:20pm

arkmundi wrote:Maybe the world-wide community would be willing to pitch in for those two motors, including the company providing at-cost no-markup set of motors?
Which Kv of motor?

The 16X4T would have the highest Copper Fill, and is the most common, I would say.
If Justin is Game, I'll send him one.
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jan 26 2015 2:52pm

Per the ebikes.ca website:
[-]Can you add motor XXX or YYY to the list?


Doing a full characterization of a hub motor takes a lot of our time and also requires destructive testing to understand the thermal limits. To add a new motor we require a) that it is readily available as a motor only and without an integrated controller (so no BionX), and b) that we are given for keeping two samples of said motor, one for destructive test and the other to keep on hand as reference should we ever need to repeat tests, and c) that it is sufficiently popular amongst DIY ebike conversions to be of value to have listed.
Looks like I will need to send Justin 2 motors.

I will gladly foot the cost of the 2 motors. Best marketing dollars I could spend.
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by arkmundi » Jan 26 2015 2:58pm

teslanv wrote:Looks like I will need to send Justin 2 motors.

I will gladly foot the cost of the 2 motors. Best marketing dollars I could spend.
I'd love to see the MXUS 3000 5T in that, and then the 3T. Maybe Justin will accept 1 each of those, and a third motor for the "spare". Or no spare, and get one from you in the future if needed. Muchos gracias.

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by \/ampa » Jan 26 2015 3:05pm

Now i have it. :lol:
The resistance measured is already from 2 phases not 1 PHASE. So the math is true.

It would help if the resistance is declared like PHASES (WINDINGS) RESISTANCE !
losses.png
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Samd » Jan 26 2015 3:08pm

chucho wrote:Any small cheap screen to read the KTY83-110 temp sensor of the motor with out CA :?:

Madin thank you for the wire link :wink:
Yep a five dollar multimeter. See my table of resistance versus temp somewhere on abut page ten of this thread.
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jan 26 2015 5:54pm

Justin says He will test the MXUS Motor. :)

I'll cover the cost for the two 4T Motors.

If you guys want the other windings tested, Maybe we can take a collection up?
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by neptronix » Jan 26 2015 5:56pm

cool.. :D
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by markz » Jan 26 2015 7:31pm

neptronix wrote:cool.. :D
Very cool, I got the 4T....right on!

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by Doctorbass » Jan 26 2015 7:41pm

teslanv wrote:Justin says He will test the MXUS Motor. :)

I'll cover the cost for the two 4T Motors.

If you guys want the other windings tested, Maybe we can take a collection up?
The fast winding cromotor would be good too! I am about to order one so i could have it shipped directly to Justin :D and be added to the ebike simulator database i guess?

btw fast winding have the advantage to be converted back to slow winding in about 2h work.. but the opposite is not possible.. you can not buy a slow winding and convert it to fast winding 8)

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by diggler » Jan 26 2015 11:14pm

Just to be clear are you sending him 4T V1 or V2? (15x4 or 16x4)
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jan 27 2015 1:19am

diggler wrote:Just to be clear are you sending him 4T V1 or V2? (15x4 or 16x4)
V2, 16X4T
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by madin88 » Jan 27 2015 4:49am

teslanv, if there is a collection up -> i'm in
MXUS V2 3T, 4T, 5T
Cro 4T, Cro 2T
hopefully justin has enough time :lol:
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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by markz » Jan 27 2015 10:31pm

Wow 2 each of all those motors, gunna be expensive, but worthwhile.
Thankfully I bought the V2 and I am looking forward to seeing the graphs.

Whats the time frame for everything to be completed and up on the website?

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Re: MXUS 3000 Hub Motor

Post by teslanv » Jan 27 2015 10:38pm

markz wrote:Wow 2 each of all those motors, gunna be expensive, but worthwhile.
Thankfully I bought the V2 and I am looking forward to seeing the graphs.

Whats the time frame for everything to be completed and up on the website?
I will have my website up in the next week or so and will be taking preorders for about a week. Then placing my order with MXUS. The 4T test motors will come on that shipment, which if I am lucky will happen before the Chinese New Year. If not, the order could be delayed for a couple weeks.

I will ship off the 4T test motors to ebikes.ca once they arrive. (6 weeks from now???)

As for how long it will take ebikes.ca to run their test and list it on the simulator, it's hard to say.
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